[Closed] Pedaling Technique

IIRC your hips are meant to be static.

Fixed is good for pedaling.

If you want moar power you want to be be stood up so a lot of that power comes from your core .. road cycling technique is pretty irrelivent to most mtb riding (or it 'should' be)

Its more road riding technique that I was really wanting, I can't seem to stand up on the pedals for long on climbs, I can manage short bursts, yet I am slowly going for longer the more I ride, so my intention is to do longer and steeper hills to gain strength and fitness.

Fair enough

I think if your hips are rocking then your saddle might be too high?

Try lowering your saddle and dropping your heels with each stroke. I find I drop my heels a bit when climbing seated. Im probably not that good though.

I prefer to climb stood up so I can stomp on the pedals and not worry about my technique.

I seem to raise my speed on the road by 1-2 mph by concentrating on "setting myself" against the bars - that makes me pull against them & makes a lot of difference to my effectiveness

(I guess it's the same as GW engaging his core by standing up)

Also, nod your head in time with each pedal stroke, definitely speeds things up.

I think if your hips are rocking then your saddle might be too high?

I don't normally rock my hips I just started doing it as an experiment to see if it would add any power and efficiency, it was also near the end of the ride when a bit of fatigue crept in. So moving your hips is bad form, I am wondering if there is anything else I should be looking at, I did have my bike setup using the Greg Lemond method by a bike shop who seemed to know their stuff.

I am also trying to engage my core, but my belly was at 40" now down to 38" after a week, so hoping I have shaved more off by Sunday (measuring day)so should get faster when the belly reduces 😆 and my core thinks heyup we can use the tummy muscles again.

Rocking hips=instability=weaker power transfer and back strain potentially.

Keep a solid core while seated, you use more than your leg muscles to pedal even when you appear static(ish) from the waist up. Honking out of the saddle uses more muscle groups as well as your body weight on top, but this is why it's tiring too. Honking is powerful but not particularly efficient for longer durations.

I'd say work on a smooth, constant pedal stroke (rollers, fixed gear and high cadence help this) and the rest will fall into place in proportion with your training load. If you can keep the pressure on the pedals without spinning out and bouncing in the saddle then you are making better use of the whole stroke; try it, you'll see what I mean and different muscles will work to keep the bike going.

EDIT: the last paragraph refers to a lower than normal gear.

I did have my bike setup using the Greg Lemond method by a bike shop who seemed to know their stuff.

They obviously dont know their stuff then

They obviously dont know their stuff then

Ok I'll bite. Why's that then?

I just had a look at what the method is and its some sort of calculation based on your leg length. And then bingo, thats your saddle height! If you want your bike fitting, go to a bike fitter, not a bike shop that uses equations to fit a bike.

They did a lot more than that to set up my bike, they had a weight from my knee to measure the slight bend in my leg and while one guy was holding the bike with me on it made sure my feet where aligned on the pedals, they adjusted the saddle position as well as the height and adjusted the bars and levers, all in all it took a good hour, perhaps they used just one aspect of the LeMond method 😕

I can't seem to stand up on the pedals for long on climbs

Practice. When I got the road bike I could do short sprints (understandably, like you do on an MTB) but couldn't stay out of the saddle for any time. More riding like that means more ability to it for longer.

for smooth pedalling try track cycling at an indoor velodrome.

those fixed gears and 30 degree slippy banks will quickly make you pedal in the most smooth circles you have ever done.

One legged pedalling drills. Unclip one foot and pedal for one minute concentrating on a push/ pull technique using all 360° of the pedal stroke. Then change to the other foot.

Do sets of these on each ride and you will soon have a more efficient pedal stroke. Just need to build up muscle memory. Would be better if you could do it on a turbo.

Once you get used to it it doesn't feel as if your even pedalling.

I've been trying this drill recently: [url= http://www.leelikesbikes.com/pedaling-drill-tens.html ]Pedalling Tens[/url]

And this article looks at what's actually happening when pedalling with more accuracy than most: [url= http://www.bikejames.com/strength/which-muscles-are-used-during-the-pedal-stroke/#more-3111 ]Which muscles are used...[/url]

I seem to be getting much quicker uphill since I started standing more and learning to not just stomp in a high gear but also be able to pedal with higher cadence and lower force when standing.

Fixed is good for pedaling.

[i]personally[/i] i find fixed is not good for pedalling technique because the pedals will pull your feet through deadspots. riding fixed for ~a month then switching to SS always leaves me mashing pedals; few weeks of SS and i have a much smoother delivery.

fixed is good for cadence work though.

I've heard good things about pedalling circles one legged but I've yet to manage it on flats - if I had clips I'd definitely be working it into my commute.

One legged pedalling drills...

Will make you good at pedalling with one leg. Waste of time if you normally cycle using both.

Not at all. Trains each leg to use a full pedal stroke and creates muscle memory. Similar to training a correct golf swing.

May not work for everyone but adopting this technique certainly helped me. I used to mash on the down stroke only and used my right leg more than my left. Then used this drill and improved greatly.

I had a metabolic test done last year on a Watt bike which also analysed my pedal stroke. Came out at 48/ 52 right leg bias. Pretty efficient I'd say.

[url] http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2009/12/pedaling-drills.html [/url]
[url] http://www.coachthomas.com/support_drills.html [/url]

Except the motion of pedalling one footed is not the same as a two footed pedal stroke. The whole stroke has different forces acting on it.

Sure it's going to help, but your time would be much better spent practising smooth pedalling using both legs.

"...started to put my hips into each pedal stroke"

What sort of cadence / pedal revolutions per minute are you pedaling at ? Just a guess but is it possible that you are maybe doing quite low cadence about 60 or 70 rpm?

If you are spinning the pedals at a fairly high cadence 80 or more rpm then you might find that things start to even out.

Oh well, I felt that fixed helped me.

road cycling technique is pretty irrelivent to most mtb riding

OK then I'll bite...not even those bits where you're sat down pedalling constantly for a period of time? Please explain.

Some thoughts on pedalling:

http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/blog/2011/05/pedalling-technique-what-is-best/

fixed helped me maintain a higher cadence for longer...

OK then I'll bite...not even those bits where you're sat down pedalling constantly for a period of time?

C'mon you know GW doesn't do that, he's so awsum that he's always riding one handed wheelies, whilst stood up. I've heard he doesn't even have a saddle. Rad.

No one drill is going to do everything. One thing I want to be able to do is crank big torque at very low cadence and also spin fast but light at very high cadence. If you can do that you'll always be in the right gear because you'll have so much adaptability in your pedalling. If you cycle your commute why not do lots of different drills then?

OK then I'll bite...not even those bits where you're sat down pedalling constantly for a period of time? Please explain

I was going to bite and point out that using more muscles doesn't mean more power as the limiting factor is your heart and lungs so any increace in power is only short term and just reuslts in an oxygen deficit. But then I remembered what njee20 said and that GW could probably win the WC XC and DH in the same weekend on a bike with no seatpost, he just choses not to.

Pretty sure that push/pull was debunked a while back.

Oh, a little thing I forgot to add was that it can help to think of the pedal stroke (in terms of a clockface's numbers) as going 9-3-9-3 instead of 12-6-12-6. By having the dead center in the middle you push through it and not hesitate to shift your weight.

Like kung-fu punching through the opponent!

Rotor Q-Rings!

You mean the 'bits' just like smooth road al?
That's why I used the words "pretty", "most" and "should" 🙄

Njee - I don't really see why you sat down pedalling/running round the fun bits fans even have mtbs.

You know what I'm gonna bite too;

Sorry GW but you're utterly wrong...

If you ride a bike whether utterly Rad or relatively sedate you need to pedal the effing thing about, efficient pedaling saves that little bit more energy meaning you can expend it on being Rad, Walking round obsticals or whatever you like, to dismiss the idea of improved pedaling technique as mainly applicable to road bikes just reinforces the image various people have of you on STW as being a know-it-all, lord of the Rad, Who doesn't seem to be interested in anything but lift assisted hucking...

If you can learn anything from another discipline of cycling then I think it's wise to at least consider it, 10% more efficient pedaling techniques taken from a road bike and applied to an MTB should mean 10% less wasted energy on the way to your trails and I'd have thought therefore 10% extra Radness (which for you of course means 110%)... But you already know every-chuffing-thing ever so why not piss off back to bike radar and stop bating on STW?

You might want to read what I wrote more carefully before going off on one.

I think that a power meter is the greatest thing in terms of learning to pedal more efficiently. It'll show you pretty instantly how power output relates to cadence and smoothness.

My experience has been that maintaining a steady and reasonably high power output just isn't going to happen intuitively, or going by perceived effort.

road cycling technique is pretty irrelivent to most mtb riding

It's relevant to that parts where you pedal.

Most people ride their bikes up hills, being an intrinsic part of topography and that. To do this one pedals (that's the 'ride' part). You may walk, or levitate with your sheer radness. This process is the same irrespective of the shape of the handlebars, the size of the wheels or the ground under the tyres. It's how a bicycle works you see.

Now, for most people who are not as 'hyper awsums' as you they tend to rest their posterior on a saddle, supporting their weight for many of those sections where gravity is not assisting them. These may be tarmac, they may not be, the technique is still the same.

I doth my cap to you for your ability to never sit down, clearly I (and every other rider on the planet) isn't as strong as you, but we knew that. If you ever come down here I will gladly show you a great 50 mile loop of the Surrey Hills, so you can exercise your unrivalled fitness in a new setting! Sure I (like everyone) can learn lots from you 🙄

The thing is, with pedalling on an mtb, you are always shifting your weight about to maintain balance on tricky sections or to provide traction on different surfaces. Sometimes you pedal with a much higher cadence, other times a much lower cadence.

Its often not just sitting and spinning.

Very true, but just because you're doing that doesn't mean that pedal smoothness developed on the road (potentially) isn't useful.

In fact due to the reduced traction it's more useful off road if anything.

I can think of plenty of steep, technical climbs that are better in the saddle because it's easier to stop the back wheel spinning. Not to mention the conservation of energy.

Standing isn't always better.

Njee & Cookea - I ride roadbikes too (have done for longer than mtb)

Njee - you need to look up the meaning of the word "most"
efficient road pedalling technique is quite obviously also a good skill to have on an mtb for smooth un-interesting terrain (like roads for instance 😉 ).. does that sort of terrian really make up more than 50% (ie. most) of your off-road mtb rides? 😯

tend to rest their posterior on a saddle, supporting their weight for many of those sections where gravity is not assisting them.

Why are you even commeenting when you can't even work out how to lower your saddle to find out yourself?

You might want to read what I wrote more carefully before going off on one.

What this:

road cycling technique is pretty irrelivent to most mtb riding

Or this:

ee - I don't really see why you sat down pedalling/running round the fun bits fans even have mtbs.

It's clear you feel you can't learn anything from anyone on STW, we're all largely useless in your view and I've yet to see you impart any huge volume of wisdom to the rest of us, so why persist then? what are you actually gaining from having an STW user account?

Don't get me wrong I'm far from faultless, I'll admit to posting a fair chunk of needlessly ****ty comments and rubbing a few people up the wrong way quite regularly, but I do actually find the forum and most of its users to be quite useful, helpful and generally pleasant... you strike me as an exception.

I can think of plenty of steep, technical climbs that are better in the saddle because it's easier to stop the back wheel spinning.

You sir are te Awesum !! 🙄

What this:

or this:

It's clear you feel you can't learn anything from anyone on STW

we're all largely useless in your view

I've yet to see you impart any huge volume of wisdom to the rest of us

so why persist then? what are you actually gaining from having an STW user account?

What's 'hucking'?

So, you're honestly saying on a steep technical climb you sit still in the saddle only monotoring torque/cadence and steering with your hands (a la roadbike climb?) to attain grip not supporting your body whilst still in the saddle and shifting your weight for every, dip, contour, rut, stone, root, soft/hard ground etc. etc.?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, well done. 🙄

Why are you even commeenting when you can't even work out how to lower your saddle to find out yourself?

1) Huh?
2) Relevance?

What's 'hucking'?

I have weak interweb-fu today...

[u][b]not[/u] supporting your body?[/b]really? ok.. either you actually are a super being or have never ridden a steep technical climb.

1) not surprised
2) massively relivant

I see, so as well as walking down anything 'fun' I have now not ridden any climbs either?

For a man I've (thankfully) never met you really do know a lot about me!

Your spelling is getting worse, from a pretty crap starting point, getting angry?

Back OT, are you saying that out of the saddle is always the best way to climb?

there's never ever been anything to get angry about here.. even when good spelling is relevant 😉

of course I'm not saying out of the saddle is better.. I'm saying proper weightshifting is better and isn't really required on a roadbike while climbing a tarmac road in good condition.

Bad habits transfer just as easily as good ones between disciplines 😉

For me - Terrain and speed determines required pedalling style and dictates opportunity to spin.

Fitness and feel seem transferable road to offroad, but surely only your speed and what you see ahead determines what your feet are doing?

Spin if you can find a spot perhaps but smooth progress and transitions are higher priority to me in general than smooth circles, but I do have much to learn 🙂

I will gladly show you a great 50 mile loop of the Surrey Hills, so you can exercise your unrivalled fitness in a new setting! Sure I (like everyone) can learn lots from you

I want tickets to this! Mainly because I suspect GW will spend a lot more time pushing than Nick.

I'm saying proper weightshifting is better and isn't really required on a roadbike while climbing a tarmac road in good condition.

Now find where I said anything to the contrary? In the saddle =/= totally motionless with no weight shifts. If you had one you'd understand this.

Spin if you can find a spot perhaps but smooth progress and transitions are higher priority to me in general than smooth circles, but I do have much to learn

I think my point was that you can be smooth at any cadence (in or out of the saddle), and that is more important on the MTB than the road, or rather a 'bad' pedal stroke will manifest itself more off road.

I want tickets to this! Mainly because I suspect GW will spend a lot more time pushing than Nick.

🙂

Just to clarify GW then it Never acceptable to use the saddle to sit and pedal on an MTB? Or it is but only when you say it is...

I mean some riders of MTBs might have to get up a long perhaps not so steep climb or a smoother flatter section that isn't littered jumps drops bumps, I know such "Sub-Rad^Gnarr" terrain actually offends you, but it does exist and some people use MTBs to ride it...

But anything other than other than proper, always out of the saddle application of your patented "Moar Power" technique is a total no-no?

I'm saying proper weightshifting is better and isn't really required on a roadbike while climbing a tarmac road in good condition.

Do you just sit like a sack of spuds on a road bike, brain switched off cos its 'soooo easy' then?
and on normal (Shitty) UK roads we are allowed out of the saddle? on an MTB but not a Road bike? or is it the other way round... It's all so confusing, I own a road bike but prefer riding my MTBs, I'm now scared to incase I accidentally learn an non-GW approved form or riding and that results in injury or death to myself or others...

I think you need to publish your own set of "GWs Rules", we'd all benefit 😉

Now find where I said anything to the contrary?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, well done.

There is bike at one of the local shops/clubs that has two chainsets, one on the left and the other on the right side of the bottom bracket. They are connected but there is a +/- 10 degree gap between where the crank arms aligned, meaning if you press down without pulling up eqaully on the other you get a load banging noise.

Bloody fantastic for teaching a smooth technique!

Cookea - you have a fantastic talent for reading the shit Njee posts and somehow imagining I said any of it.

quick Q.

roadbike or mtb

climbing or sprinting, when you raise your arses off the saddle do you usually need to change to a higher gear or lower gear?

Why is this?

Why is this?

Because your using more muscles, which means more force. But power output is still limited by your lungs and heart, so your cadence drops, so on anything longer than a sprint your just wasting energy trying to climb entirely out of the saddle.

So you do agree standing creates more power? (albeit not as sustainable)

I think my point was that you can be smooth at any cadence (in or out of the saddle), and that is more important on the MTB than the road, or rather a 'bad' pedal stroke will manifest itself more off road.

Ok, but my point is still that terrain and speed control this - first.

Prioritising pedalling in circles over weighting the bike for flow. That seems odd to me - especially in desirable terrain like techy twisty singletrack.

I do agree that being able to spin is a cornerstone to good form and pretty key to endurance - definitely relevant on more 'open' trails and climbs?

quick Q.

roadbike or mtb

climbing or sprinting, when you raise your arses off the saddle do you usually need to change to a higher gear or lower gear?

Why is this?

That's actually a useful pertinent question...

If I get out of the saddle to grunt up (typically something short and sharp) I normally either keep the gear I'm in or go for a slightly higher (Harder) gear to try and keep my cadence constant/add resistance to the additional weight I'm applying on the downstroke now and/or generate some inertia...

If I stay seated (normally on longer climbs) I probably will select a lower (Easier) gear also to keep my cadence constant/comfortable for the duration of the climb...

It tends to be a combination of reading incline, length of climb, momentum already carried and a rider judgement on weather or not they might need to shift weight about (as you have said) or the trail is smooth enough/has a shallow enough incline that staying seated is more efficient/better for traction that dictate what to do, read the trail/road as you find it...

Much as I hate to agree with GW I do, to a degree at least...

Why would climbing out of the saddle be less efficient than climbing in the saddle? You don't have to be sprinting in a high gear, you can actually stand and pedal with normal cadence and benefit from more muscles sharing the load than if you were in the saddle. I often climb like this at a quicker pace than if I'd stayed seated. I can't go on for ever but it isn't just a sprint. When I need a rest I'll sit down, drop a load of cogs and spin fast, then go back to standing and pedalling hard but smooth.

Getting better at standing and pedalling is also hugely beneficial when going quickly on rough but fairly flat terrain and when traction is limited. It is also allows you to generate speed through pumping to a degree which is impossible when seated. Yes, MTBs and roadbikes are powered by pedals but they're quite different disciplines.

Watch out for Njee, I spotted at least one spelling mistake there 😉

So you do agree standing creates more power? (albeit not as sustainable)

But your argument is a bit extream (and so's the counter that climbing efficiently is all seated). You obviously need to be stood up over really techy bits, even if that's just hovering 1" above the saddle to let the bike move about, but climbing quickly requires you to be efficient, which means sitting down whenever nececary/possible, otherwise you're using your available power to stabilise your upper body rather than drive your legs. Equally if you're fitter you can spend a lot longer seated as the extra momentum carrys your through the rough bits without wasting energy standing up, where less fit rider will grind to a halt and have to stand up to man handle the bike through the rougher section slowly. Just watch an XC race going up a climb, the rear wheels are spinning/gripping/spinning/gripping constantly as the riders adjust body position and power output, but unless there's somethign that needs it they gernearly remain seated and rarely stand up completely.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, well done.

Followed by the eye roll, indicating irony. Clearly lost on you!

So you do agree standing creates more power? (albeit not as sustainable)

No, it creates more torque, you [i]can [/i]generate more power, but it's not a given. I can easily stand up and not increase my power output. That's pretty daft though, because it's more tiring than sitting.

Have we reach a conclusion yet sheesh 🙄 didn't want to create an argument. So I should invest in a bike computer that also measures cadence and go from there.

Not sure I'd say it quite as strongly as GW, but I reckon most mountain bikers would better improve their mountain bike conditioning/fitness/ability by trying to stand most of the time, rather than doing pedaling drills...

GW - Member
You mean the 'bits' just like smooth road al?
That's why I used the words "pretty", "most" and "should"

Well done for coming across like a bit of a knob. You've surpassed yourself since that post too I see!

What a meaningless conversation, seriously guys, IGNORE THE TROLL.

Pot - kettle!

You couldn't make it up 🙂

Not a lot of love for GW in this thread, is there? 😆

Not a lot of love for GW [s]in this thread[/s] on this forum, is there?

FTFY. Are you surprised by this!?

So I should invest in a bike computer that also measures cadence and go from there.

I'd not get too hung up on that, just count for a few seconds, I don't really find focusing on the number all that useful, YMMV. If you want to do drills then choosing a gear that's too low and trying to spin without bouncing is good, surprisingly difficult as the cadence increases >120rpm.

The only love in it is a little creepy tbh

[img] [/img]

Talk of the devil.

[img] [/img]