On the weekend I watched 2 teenagers ask to borrow a pump from a shop. They got it. They then used it, outside the door, to replace a tube with one from Wilko's. Cheeky sods then left the empty box and duff tube on the pavement, plonked the pump on the doorstep and buggered off without thanks.
I understand the lack of enthusiasm for casual help from shops.
"I have had to ask for this twice at a trail centre shop because of emergency repairs. If the shop said no then TBH I would be pissed and they would lose my future custom. "
Why?
Do you lend your tools to total strangers, probably every day, when you also sell the tools?
I went into a local shop and asked for the best price for a bike, they told me the supplier didn't allow them to discount. I pointed out that was illegal, they ran out back and didn't return.
Shops are their own worst enemy.
I'm not surprised; there's nothing worse than a legal 'expert' spouting nonsense. I'd hide in the back until you'd gone, too.
Do I have the right to ask them to replace the POS pump they have for customer use because the valve is knackered?
You have the right to buy your own. Have you considered that?
calling your customers idiots isn't likely to achieve much
No, but it is fun and cathartic.
My customers aren't idiots, they're all lovely people. However I'm sure quite a few idiots are filtered out before I get to meet them.
Would you rather walk into a bike shop and speak to people who know a lot about and ride bikes or one where they just repeat all the spiel from the press launches and pressure you into a sale?
Where I work we are hired based pretty much on bike knowledge and enthusiasm not just because we are experienced at sales. Bike shops would be like car dealerships then...
Don't get me wrong I'm not slating LBS's. I worked through and after Uni in them and still think they offer the best buying experience and I support them when buying many things including frames, clothing, spares etc... Doesn't mean if I see a killer online deal that I don't buy on the web too.
I think the 'shop try internet buy' thing is an awful mickey take and really think it's beyond being 'cheeky'. The thing that is repeated a bit on this thread is people criticising bike shop sales skills and their inabilities to persuade people to buy there rather than online with free this or free that. My point is that unfortunately a team of professional marketeers and web sales people with bigger profit margins are able to achieve better sales than a local shop staffed by real true enthusiasts. It's a crying shame...
I went into a local shop and asked for the best price for a bike, they told me the supplier didn't allow them to discount. I pointed out that was illegal, they ran out back and didn't return.
If they discount items and the supplier finds out they could lose their contract and stop getting X brand of bikes in future.
rip off. Rutland cycling have em for £174.99, and thats ignoring cashback sites
Assuming they have it in stock.
....or indeed reply to any form of communication.
I went into a local shop and asked for the best price for a bike, they told me the supplier didn't allow them to discount. I pointed out that was illegal, they ran out back and didn't return.Shops are their own worst enemy.
Are you sure that's what they said? Or maybe it was something along the lines of
"Sorry, but that manufacturer/supplier sets such tight margins that it would be impossible for me to make a living if I sold that bike at much less than the retail price." As an example, my LBS sells a particular brand. If I buy it on the Halfords C2W from him he makes about £50 from the sale once C2W have taken their commission. That isn't going to go very far towards clothing and feeding his family, paying his overheads and bills now is it?
Your consumer choice has been made for you, but not by him.
I have an awful lot of sympathy for people trying their best to do what they can for you, and in his case I get a bit of customer loyalty cashback via customer credit (but not on a C2W sale!!) I buy my clothing from him because I like the brands he stocks, and the few quid I can save online are offset by being able to try things on and not have to go through the farce of returns etc. I do all my own building and maintenance except for the stuff I don't trust myself to do, or don't have expensive tools for, and I always offer to pay him if he does it for me. He doesn't always charge! I never ask to borrow tools, as I can afford to buy my own in most cases, and I'll happily pay his prices if they are reasonable.
On the subject of price-fixing, have you also noticed that certain Chain Reaction offers never apply to certain clothing makes? Try adding your discount code to a basket full of Endura. Perhaps we should report them to the police? Or accept that if CRC don't discount them, then neither does the LBS.
You can order stuff online and return for free so I have no idea why people just try in LBS anymore if they have no intention of buying there and then. For me, it is to give them a chance to price match, if they can't fine, but I give them the chance. Bought my last bike this way.
I have also been told by a LBS that it would be cheaper and quicker for me to order a mech from CRC, which I thought was pretty poor (but honest) sales approach
Bike shops need to focus on the value add they can provide not just on trying to sell a product at lots more than it can be delivered the next day for. People won't mind spending a little more if they feel they are getting good service.
asked for the best price
Surefire way to get offered £2 off the SRP.
Rightly or wrongly, a lot of people hate a lazy negotiation strategy like that.
I have also been told by a LBS that it would be cheaper and quicker for me to order a mech from CRC, which I thought was pretty poor (but honest) sales approach
Poor sales strategy but excellent customer service?
£50 is £50. It gains you a customer who may potentially spend thousands with you later on. Many companies offer fremium type offerings for exactly this reason. Stupid to turn customers away even if low value, unless you are so busy that your spending your time on higher value sales rather than moaning about tight consumers and how your shop is failing....
I think the 'shop try internet buy' thing is an awful mickey take and really think it's beyond being 'cheeky'. The thing that is repeated a bit on this thread is people criticising bike shop sales skills and their inabilities to persuade people to buy there rather than online with free this or free that. My point is that unfortunately a team of professional marketeers and web sales people with bigger profit margins are able to achieve better sales than a local shop staffed by real true enthusiasts. It's a crying shame...
That is a lot of the issue. People don't see why they should pay anymore to get it from a shop rather than online.
Eg. Customer needs new wheel for ride today. Wheel is £250, but he says can get online for £210 with 2% cash back also. Offer it for lowest we can do at £220 and will swap cassette etc for him so can go riding today. Customer says there is no benefit to them to buy from us so will go home and order online. So they will be £10 richer and have to fit themselves and miss out on a few days riding and the same again if there is any issues with it.
I went into a local shop and asked for the best price for a bike, they told me the supplier didn't allow them to discount. I pointed out that was illegal, they ran out back and didn't return.
Ah the classic.
What's the best price? Well, their best price is probably RRP + XX%. Your best price is no doubt the bike at less than cost, plus the shirt off their back.
Thankfully I don't work in retail, but we do a lot of buyer habit analysis. Generally the customer who wanders in and comes out with the little gem of "what's your best price on that mate" comes out fairly low in the target market.
On the subject of price-fixing, have you also noticed that certain Chain Reaction offers never apply to certain clothing makes? Try adding your discount code to a basket full of Endura. Perhaps we should report them to the police? Or accept that if CRC don't discount them, then neither does the LBS.
There are plenty of brands now adopting that policy - maximum discounts allowed when advertising products. It's not just about margin protection, it's about protecting the brand value too. You don't want to be associated with constant, heavy discounting off retail.
£50 is £50. It gains you a customer who may potentially spend thousands with you later on.
Or see all the "Where is it cheapest for...." threads some people will only shop at the cheapest.
£50 is £50. It gains you a customer who may potentially spend thousands with you later on.
Not when the trade price is £45 + VAT because he's asking you to price match with OE grey stuff coming in through the big online guys.
Bending over backwards to get a sale on which you make virtually nothing is fool's errand. The shop may have actually saved money by turning this sale down as he'll most likely have wanted it fitted for free.
The likelihood that this a customer will spend 'thousands' without the shop owner having to offer him the shirt off his back and the hand in marriage of his first born is also pretty remote.
In this case I think they did the probably did the right thing, there was no way to make a profit from the sale so they were upfront with him about it.
I don't get this 'borrowing tools' thing.
I don't lend my tools to other engineers (because I got sick of screwdrivers coming back looking like bradawls) let alone some random passing scrote who's so mechanically inept that they're riding a bike and don't have the basic braincells to carry a pump. I'd rather do the job myself as a favour than loan stuff out.
I wouldn't even begin to dream of rocking up to a bike shop and asking to borrow their kit. Buy, perhaps. I can only assume that most LBS's have a small supply of 'loaner' screwdrivers &c that are made of cottage cheese and near-ruined.
Some LBS's are great I have one near me that I often buy stuff from while others not so great and sometimes you wonder why?
I was out at a certain FC trail center, I don't carry my cone spanners with me but had some wobble in the wheel, hand tightened this lasted a couple of miles. Popped into the Bike shop at the trail head asked if they could tighten and howmuch did they want? empty shop 3 staff all having a cuppa answer was nah sorry fully booked, eh? to get 2 spanners and tighten, 60 seconds work? I noticed they had a customer tool box, I asked if they had a spanner in the box, the reply was yep unless its been stolen go for it. Needless to say there was no cone spanner in the box.
I headed into Rugeley which was nearby and the LBS was more than happy to help, if I made him a cuppa while he tightened the cones, job done. In the past ive brought trail snacks and post ride tea's, spare helmet and brake pads etc... from the trail head LBS, but after that day haven't been in there since. Good service helps drive business.
£50 is £50. It gains you a customer who may potentially spend thousands with you later on. Many companies offer fremium type offerings for exactly this reason. Stupid to turn customers away even if low value, unless you are so busy that your spending your time on higher value sales rather than moaning about tight consumers and how your shop is failing....
He didn't turn anyone away. He sells C2W because it gets customers in his shop. He doesn't make much on the sales of the bikes themselves, but does increase his customer base. However, the point still stands that if he can only make 20% profit on the sale of a (non C2W)bike, why should he give half of that to some bloke that comes in and demands a discount because he thinks the LBS needs to do him a favour?
Once oveheard a conversation in the GT shop between a guy who's bike was knackered and needed a new BB, the guy was offering him a Hope BB at what sounded like a reasnoble price with free fitting. Guy was dithering. Come on FFS, for the sake of getting it (or shimano, superstar, token etc) £10 cheaper online he was going to just drive home again without a ride!
I have had to ask for this twice at a trail centre shop because of emergency repairs. If the shop said no then TBH I would be pissed and they would lose my future custom.
Well if you're not local it's unlikely you'll be back that often? And they probably get 10's of 'can I borrow' requests every day (and probably a poportion of those never bring the tool back). All fo no business.
I dunno, I often buy mid priced odds and sods form the LBS when I need them, but for big stuff they're uncompetative on price and stock (why wait 3 weeks for them to get it in stock when it can come to my house in 24h for less?). Shoes and clothes I'd buy from them if they were reasnobly priced, but then I don't buy much of those.
I buy pretty much everything online if I'm honest - mainly for convenience. I don't have a great local bike shop near me and getting to the one near work in lunch is a pain. There's also no guarantee that they'll have what I want whereas with the big online companies it's here in a day or two. I never do the advice / try thing though - I buy tools as I need them and have pretty strong ideas as to what bits I want / like and therefore go with that.
That being said, I did buy my Banshee from a shop because I wanted to demo it first and they did a bit of a deal on it. There was no question that I was going to buy it from them. The service was pretty good, if not outstanding.
tomhoward got it on page one:
*awaits post stating that shop chappy should have helped him in order to potentially maybe be given the chance to give that customer an inner tube in the future*
This stuff about taking the hit in order to be able to get a future customer for things you [i]can[/i] compete with CRC/Wiggle on (i.e. everything except big-ticket parts, clothing etc.) seems to make sense.
But then look at pretty much every thread on here about builds, servicing, advice, just popping in for some inner tubes etc.- all that stuff where a shop can get the edge on the internet big boys. They all seem to be complaining that the LBS chappy didn't drop everything and leap over the counter to do all that stuff for nothing more than a cuppa and a biscuit, or instantly knock off 50% with a wink and a smile. The point where the LBS might expect to be able to actually make some money on something they do or sell seems to always be kicked down the road.
That doesn't add up to a sustainable approach to me.
part of the problem is that the industry is tilted to help the big players,buy 25 of an item and you will get a better price than 5 ,but unless you're an online supplier you could never sell the numbers required.
the days of customers paying £10/20 quid more for a bike locally are going ,just a few years ago customers were loyal and tended to come back after you'd helped them out,often out of hours or let them take a bike for the weekend because there's needs to back due to a problem.
past employers have gone out there way ,altered dates on receipts(so it's still in warranty)and gone above and beyond in terms of service,sadly it seems to count for nothing in many cases.
At Bontrager 24/12 this year I discovered the day before that one of the bearings in a brand new Hope BB had collapsed. Cycle Surgery were doing tech support for the event, so I went along and had a chat. They arranged for someone to bring down a new SRAM BB the next day and fitted it for me the morning of the race. They asked for £30 for the BB, and I gave them £40 and said buy a couple of beers with it as without their help I'd have taken two days off work, driven 500 miles and entered the event all for nothing.
They seemed quite surprised about it...
I like a bargain, but I also like shops and local services so I support them when and where I can. Some of the internet lovers/ B&M haterz need to realise that [url= http://www.eng.ox.ac.uk/about/news/new-study-shows-nearly-half-of-us-jobs-at-risk-of-computerisation ]their jobs aren't going to be safe for much longer[/url].
I'll pay a bit more for things at my local bike shop just because it is my local bike shop, and it helps out my local economy, and pays for people's jobs and mortgages, and families etc.
It helps make me question whether I 'need' something a little bit too, which is probably healthy, as well as getting to talk about what I'm thinking of buying with somebody who (hopefully) knows what they're about.
I got invaluable tyre advice from JeJames just before a MTBing weekend with Dales Bike Centre, the friendly place in the Yorkshire Dales
Then there is this:
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wiggle-5-off-wanted
Some people just aren't happy no matter what the price is...
This stuff about taking the hit in order to be able to get a future customer for things you can compete with CRC/Wiggle on (i.e. everything except big-ticket parts, clothing etc.) seems to make sense.
The tyre kickers will never come back
DT78 - Member
I have also been told by a LBS that it would be cheaper and quicker for me to order a mech from CRC, which I thought was pretty poor (but honest) sales approach
I had something like that with car tyres. Dealer service and they recommended I go to a tyre place for tyres, even though they could do it themselves. Presumably they just knew I'd laugh at their prices, they don't make enough money from tyres and/or they just don't have the time to do it. I'm more likely to go back to the dealer for another service than if they'd ripped me off on tyres.
This stuff about taking the hit in order to be able to get a future customer for things you can compete with CRC/Wiggle on (i.e. everything except big-ticket parts, clothing etc.) seems to make sense.The tyre kickers will never come back
Maybe I should have said "SEEMS to make sense" 😉
We're saying the same thing I think. This approach would be be fine IF at some point in the near future those people all said to themselves "You know, after all those free inner tubes, services and advice, and all that stuff at 25% off, it's about time I bought those new forks from them even though I could get the same thing for £200 less on CRC right now."
If I was an LBS owner I wouldn't be holding my breath.
the vast majority of LBS cannot buy their stock for the same prices of the internet big boys. It's generally a tiered system of "trade price"/ "stockist"/ "premier" and "elite" when buying from the trade catalogues. LBS generally fall into the stockist bracket and thus pay approx. 5 to 6% more than the "elite" seller on each item. CRC, Wiggle are multi million pound companies and like supermarkets probably command even more discount. Not knocking my LBS but they struggle to get stuff in most of the time and I would hazard a guess why. where ever possible I will give the money to the LBS if they have what I'm after.
I think that 'shopping' to then order on the internet is out of order.
What the people who do this sort of thing don't realise is their 'right' to ask questions in a shop then buy on the internet is trumped by the shop's 'right' to tell them to sod off.
I've had a couple of occasions at Alti Bike Shak where I've tried to buy a tool but they didn't have any in stock. On both occasions they insisted on me borrowing their shop tool and dropping it through the letter box 2 days later when I'd done the job.
On another occasion when they fixed something for me quickly I had to demand that the charge me something for it. They said it hadn't taken long so it was free. I said that I'll generally buy stuff from where it's cheap but appreciate having them nearby; in those situations where I need something doing and they can do it for me then they need to damn well make the most of it and take my money off me.
Top blokes
dannyh - Member
I think that 'shopping' to then order on the internet is out of order.
I did it all the time in HMV once online prices were cheaper. Frequently I'd check the phone to see what the online prices were. Sometimes if their sale price was good I'd buy in the shop, but usually not.
Maybe that's why most the HMV shops are gone now though 😉
Asking staff for advice to then buy online is cheaky though, and a good independent LBS I'm happy to give my business to. Still, I'm looking for a deal, so plenty of things I'll buy online, but I won't go and try in the shop to buy online.
Where an LBS gets my business is when I'm prepared to pay higher to get something that day, online price is not much different to RRP, or the shop just has a good deal like on the whole package or a unique offer. If it's a whole bike I'd be looking for a deal on last year models with good component spec or ex-demo.
I've had a couple of occasions at Alti Bike Shak where I've tried to buy a tool but they didn't have any in stock. On both occasions they insisted on me borrowing their shop tool and dropping it through the letter box 2 days later when I'd done the job.On another occasion when they fixed something for me quickly I had to demand that the charge me something for it. They said it hadn't taken long so it was free. I said that I'll generally buy stuff from where it's cheap but appreciate having them nearby; in those situations where I need something doing and they can do it for me then they need to damn well make the most of it and take my money off me.
Top blokes
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is known as customer service and adding value.
thisisnotaspoon - MemberWell if you're not local it's unlikely you'll be back that often? And they probably get 10's of 'can I borrow' requests every day (and probably a poportion of those never bring the tool back). All fo no business.
I am a regular and I've spent hundreds at this shop even though it is not really my LBS.
So what are you going to DO about this disagreeable situation?
20 odd years ago I worked in a computer/small business network type shop, and we had exactly the same issue with dell, Gateway et al.
We also had people bringing them into fix 6 months later 🙂
wilburt - Member
So what are you going to DO about this disagreeable situation?
Ooooh oooh I know!
Given that the issue seems to be showrooming, how about [i]kill all the showroomers?[/i]
Possibly a touch extreme I grant you, but consider this - If they are capable of the level of base stupidity demonstrated in the OP - do they really have a place in the gene pool anyway?
So there you go, job jobbed. What do I win?
I think this has been covered on a few threads already but the world is changing, peoples habits change and therefore business needs to change to adapt to this or they will go bust.
Look at how supermarkets killed off the local butcher/grocer, Amazon killed off local bookshops, Itunes the CD shop etc.
A LBS cant sit still and play victim because CRC are cheaper, they need to provide something that the internet cant.
Funny enough Halfords seem to be expanding their bike hut stuff at the moment, surely this means there is a market for non internet cycle stuff?
A LBS cant sit still and play victim because CRC are cheaper, they need to provide something that the internet cant.
They do already. They also need people to think it's reasonable for a price to be attached to those things that reflects the cost of providing them.
The fundamental problem - and Halfords understand this - is that cyclists are the worst possible customers for bike shops. Cyclists already have a bike, usually know at least a bit about how to fix their bike, and usually avidly watch the websites and magazines so know where to get parts cheaply.
Yet bike shops still too often try to attract cyclists.
Funny enough Halfords seem to be expanding their bike hut stuff at the moment, surely this means there is a market for non internet cycle stuff?Perhaps the customers of halfords aren't of the type that are mentioned in the OP. I could be wrong, but I imagine that people don't haggle in halfords and aren't on the whole 'enthusiasts' or looking for discounted high end products. They may even be customers that are deterred from using a traditional bike shop by the prices of the products they stock.
As said above by Ben Cooper
Not sure what happened with my quotes.
halfords do click and collect...my lbs has a website with one page?
