What happened mboy, we're you bullied by an Orange 5 at school or something?
No, and I know several people that also own Orange 5's that aren't pompous dicks.
But seemingly the bike attracts more than its fair share, just as BMW's used to, and Audi's do currently...
If filing cabinets were made of aluminium they'd be much easier to move...
I've ridden with only two Orange 5sters - one built his up dirt cheap secondhand and drives a Ford Ka, the other went off like a rat out of a trap when I showed him our steeper local trails, including launching off an unseen jump, landing it in a tailslide, winding himself on a tree, finally ending up in some bushes with blood on his face - he may or may not have had a matching Audi but he was quick and apparently fearless.
mboy you talk of Five owners going on and on and on and winding everyone up...
The irony just kills me 😉
Good grief, 5 pages of this Nonsense?!?!?! Not so long ago it was Santa cruz riders that were hated, neither of these "rider types" make any sense. I have and many people I have know who have owned one or both of these makes of bikes and never seemed to have fitted to these stereotypes, that seem born out of STW forum world. I and the people I have know, who have owned a bike from either of these manufacturers have been the same person before and after owning a bike from either SC bikes or Orange. I certainly don't fit the stereotype, I don't even own a car or could afford one really.
To me there seems only one reason to hate Orange MTB's, if you have had bad customer service from them and maybe the guy that doesn't like them because they remind him of bad times in the north, that makes a lot more sense that the rest of the arguments!
Value wise again, I don't really get it yes, they are no way Canyon value but there are other companies that don't offer amazing value either, like Kona always seem to be lower specked compared to other brands. £1395 for a 5 frame, although pretty pricey, doesn't seem that bad against £1989 Carbon specialized. Yes the specialized is carbon and has a better warranty and a more complicated suspension set up but I am pretty sure it's made in china were the worker's have almost 0 rights and horrible conditions where as the 5 is made in the UK by workers that will be paid well-ish (I suspect)have paid holidays and yes don't really approve of walls covered in naked women but still better than worker exploitation and oppression. I am not having ago a specialzed bike owners or any bike made in china but that to me seems like something to hate more than it doesn't appeal to me look wise or I know someone who has one and there a bit of a smeg head.
Plus value is not just about what bits are on the bike, it's the whole package.
But all in all what a stupid long topic on a completely nonsensical and pointless subject...that I have just added to, D'oh.
P.s I liked crashtestmonkey's post but worried that some didn't pick up on the irony...but then worried that maybe it wasn't ironic and I am now the idiot. God life's complicated...liking or not liking bike company is not though.
I cannot believe this thread has drawn so much attention! I knew it would be popular for discussion when I started it but this is mad 😆
I have an Alpine 160. It jumps well, handles the hits and drops fine, goes uphill ok, and at 33.2lbs as standard it's not to heavy. Also it's not to noisy, by no means silent, but not like the older bikes with the huge downtubes and swingarms.
And being single pivot it has 2 whacking great bearings. And I could get it in a custom colour so everyone else with one won't look the same.
What's not to like?
Tom KP
This thread is another STW classic! .. .pointless but entertaining 😀
I still ride a 2003 Evo2 and love it although all thats left of the orignal bike is the frame, stem and bars. Everything else broke or was upgraded. However the bit that Orange had built, the frame is brilliant and I will ride till the frame breaks, no sign of that yet though.
Manitou, by outdated you mean well sorted, effective and low maintenance? I've owned URT, Faux bar,
4 bar horst, Idrive and VPP and simple single pivot. My alpine climbs far better than the vpp (which compressed the lower link ever stroke, shortening the effective chainstay length) and descends as well as any. It's not perfect bit none of them are. Not purchase justification either, it cost me less than the Nomad and I've consistently slated that.
oranges are built by experienced metal fabricators. I don't care what their BMI is. As long as the designers and company owners care about bikes and the fabricators know how to fabricate, I'd be happy.
And my Alpine does look like a filing cabinet.
Maybe it could become a regular feature? Next week Yeti Bikes, Love or Hate?
I like my R8 -- that would be the Halifax-designed one, not the Audi one. . .
Cows in cars... YES!
I bought a new five pro, I liked it, it rode very well compared to other bikes I tried.
I then spent a shit load more money turning it into a five AM as i ride the peaks mostly and have some alps trips planned. It does everything I want it to, I crash it pretty hard most weeks and it doesn't look to bad.
In reality there is quicker, lighter, better spec and cheaper bikes available... And next time I will probably do it differently and buy something else.
But for now I'm happy that it takes everything I throw at it.
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Another thing worth mentioning is the confidence/skill/risk/danger factor associated with riding a Five
Orange portray the five in the media as an All Moutain machine, they get skilled riders in like Macaskill and Sorrell and film them doing drops/jumps/downhills/allmountaintech.
Inspired by their heroes and the slack angles of a Five, the everyday mountain bikers (some who are over 40 years of age) don their pads and helmets and take to the Trail Centre black runs or a Big Day In The Lakes, in a bid to perform similar AM tech.
You've gotta have the skills to pay the bills though, and these lads havent so it usually ends in everyday mountain bikers (some who are over 40 years of age) tumbling about on the floor and breaking bones.
Hence time off work and a drain on the UK economy (not a great advert for manufacturing bikes in the UK)
I've just eaten 5 oranges.
I'm not sure I totally fall in either of the polarized 'Love' or 'Hate' catagories quite I have no real problem with their bikes for the most part they seem well thought out and executed (if a little pricey) but on the other hand it is good fun to poke the fervent fanbois now and again with mention of filing cabinets.
They are just a business at the end of the day and nothing more if their northern-ness, britishness, audi roofrack fitting or even their product functionality flick your switches and you can afford one then great but its only fair that a bit of ribbing comes with ownership of a five... don't worry though it goes both ways, I own two konas...
When I bought my P7 and brought it home my wife asked with a puzzeled expression "but its black" 😆
I love my bike but I love riding it more. I don't mind what brand floats your boat or not. What I do find frustrating is the folk who change their bikes every other year. Why? Just enjoy what you have, spend time on the bike and be happy.
Glitter Garry, I recon you will have an interesting toilet experience in the morning if not sooner 😯
What I do find frustrating is the folk who change their bikes every other year. Why?
You're new round these parts aren't you! Just wait, every other year is about 8 times less often than some people on here seemingly...
mboy you talk of Five owners going on and on and on and winding everyone up...The irony just kills me
I think you've missed my point. I don't think I have, in any way, wound anybody up in this thread. I can if you want me to, but certainly compared to some of the posts that have been written on here so far, seeking a vocal response, I've been very neutral and will remain that way. I just think that like Audis do currently (and I've had an Audi), and BMW's used to (and I've had 3 BMW's!), for whatever reason they seem to attract much more than their fair share of "My car/bike/house/job/lifestyle is considerably better than yours" types. The kind of person that measures everyone financially, and assumes that everyone aspires to the same material wealth as they do. We're all different, we all enjoy different things and have different importances.
spando - MemberWhat I do find frustrating is the folk who change their bikes every other year. Why?
So many bearings- once they wear out it's too expensive to replace them all so we have to get new bikes.
Actually, what [i]is[/i] that all about? "Oh, Fives only have 2 bearings, they're easy to maintain". Well my Hemlock's got about 50 bearings, but they don't need replaced often, and when they do it takes an hour and about £20. Is that such a big deal that it'd influence your choice of bike? Or, is it one of those things that people do to try and justify their purchase even though they know it's nonsense?
No, don't answer that one, it was rhetorical.
No, don't answer that one, it was rhetorical.
😆
i like the bikes, but hate the planks who buy them and then think theyre the best thing since sliced bread. notice i didnt say everyone whos bought one is a plank.
I've recently bought my first Orange. A 2011 P7 hardtail.
Firstly it was better spec than current 2012 model (though same can be said for nearly every bike out there)
The main reason i bought it though is that like car's you always buy what best suits your circumstances.
I wanted a steel frame, i've trashed too many alloy one's to bother buying another.
I only ride red routes/single track and can ride well enough to not need the benefit of full sus.
I'm 6'3" and 18 stone but can hustle when i want to so i need something that feels planted thats not going to give up at the first hurdle with my weight bearing down on it.
And lastly there's a nice warm feeling to know that it's a british bike.
I do agree with some of the posts on here about seeing loads out and about all polished and kept sparkling. Trust me, mine isn't one of them! 😀
One thing I will say, in contrast to davidtaylforth's portrayal of the average Five rider as a bit underskilled and generally a bit of a punter, by contrast your average STW bike at least your Orange Punter (and any buyer of a mainstream brand such as Spesh, Yeti, Giant etc.) displays some (albeit basic) knowledge of handling, performance and having a good time, which your average STW rider mincing around the South Downs on something like this clearly has no idea whatsoever about.
[img] 
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(Two can play at this troll game!)
I've never thought about love or hate with any bike brand. I do love to make a comment if I see 3 or 4 riders in a group passing all on Orange Five's though!
oooh nice bike munrobiker!
mojo5pro - Member
This thread is another STW classic! .. .pointless but entertaining
Agreed. I remember when we used to go and just ride with other people just to ride - no matter what they rode, regardless of their ability or what car they have. It was nice just to spend time with people doing something we enjoyed whether I knew them or not. How times change.
Agreed. I remember when we used to go and just ride with other people just to ride - no matter what they rode, regardless of their ability or what car they have. It was nice just to spend time with people doing something we enjoyed whether I knew them or not. How times change.
Times haven't changed, you are just on a forum full of overweight, frustrated, middle aged, middle class bell ends, who think they are better than everyone else.
skywalker - MemberAgreed. I remember when we used to go and just ride with other people just to ride - no matter what they rode, regardless of their ability or what car they have. It was nice just to spend time with people doing something we enjoyed whether I knew them or not. How times change.
Times haven't changed, you are just on a forum full of overweight, frustrated, middle aged, middle class bell ends, who think they are better than everyone else.
So judging by this thread I'd be right in thinking that these said people ride a 5 and drive an Audi? 😉
Possibly, I hate Audi drivers 😉
If we were all after VFM then we'd all drive around in Kia's with a 7 year warranty and ride a bike from a manufacturer who offers a 'limited lifetime warranty' (which when you read the small print isn't worth FA).
Has anyone considered the cost of wages between China and the UK?
Google suggests a UK welder can expect to earn £10p/h. A chinese welder can expect to earn £1.25 p/h
And people wonder why an Orange bike is more expensive to make over their far eastern competitors.
Audi or Orange?nathaneddy - MemberI like my R8
Either way you're a ****, apparently...
😉
Has anyone considered the cost of wages between China and the UK?Google suggests a UK welder can expect to earn £10p/h. A chinese welder can expect to earn £1.25 p/h
And people wonder why an Orange bike is more expensive to make over their far eastern competitors.
Good point and one I touched upon earlier in this thread, it seems there are a number of people on hear, (I was going to say a large portion but think "Louder" people is a better description) who seem quite happy to own or for others to own a bike made in china from a large "manufacture" that is possibly (normally carbon frames it seems) produced by Chinese workers who are very controlled in the way they live. I am going on information from a few years ago (so willing to be corrected and not saying it's the same for all situations), but a huge portion of chinese workers (factory workers, if your above that "level" your ok)have to work 7 days a week, around 13 hours a day, have to sleep in singe sex dorms, which are provided by the company but are little better than slums in most cases, some cases worse. Not allowed to sleep with their husband/wife/partner while "housed" by the company. Worked till they can't do the job any more at the speed required, at which point they will be let go (no pention, redundancy) and have to leave the city unless they have another job to go to. Most have to send the small amount of money back home so their children/brothers/sisters can go to school in the hope they might have a chance to break out of the circle they live in.
Is that ok? Is that not something more worth hating than a UK made bike frame? A company that actually makes something in this country, a sadly rare thing these days.
I am not wanting to have ago at people that buy products made in china, I know I have some, I try to avoid it but it's hard to do, for many reasons. But most of the "reasons" to hate, primarily a five, are just stupid and irrational, not all, but most.
Only know 2 five owners neither are middle class but one drives an audi. Both are way better riders than l will ever be. Yes they get stick but its all good. I don 't get fives,for me there are far better lighter choices,for them its orange fives only,think they were dropped on their heads at birh. Love the orange owner baiting,stops people picking on my Giant
I don't have an "Audi" (whatever that is).
Got a Brompton, mind... 8)
Burn the witch!
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Most of the 5 riders I've come across have been decent riders who love their riding.
The 5 seems to get people more worked up both for and against than any other bike I can think of. Not sure why really.
Pretty sure it's not a class thing as I'd have said the Trek Fuel/Remedy are the middle class default purchase of choice.
Times haven't changed, you are just on a forum full of overweight, frustrated, middle aged, middle class bell ends, who think they are better than everyone else.
Brilliant - spot on!!!
Has anyone considered the cost of wages between China and the UK?
Google suggests a UK welder can expect to earn £10p/h. A chinese welder can expect to earn £1.25 p/h
Thing is, if it’s taking them more than 4 hours to weld up a frame, they’re doing it wrong.
Tell you what, I’m feeling generous, give ‘em a day.
8 hours x 9 = £72.
Treble it for taxes and hidden costs and extras and things.
£216.
Orange 5's are not expensive because they're made in britain, they're expensive because people will pay for them.
Good luck to them, they're doing well.
Thing is, if it’s taking them more than 4 hours to weld up a frame, they’re doing it wrong.Tell you what, I’m feeling generous, give ‘em a day.
8 hours x 9 = £72.
Treble it for taxes and costs and things.
£216.
hmmmm
it's an estimate of the cost difference for making a frame in britain vs taiwan.
although, you'd need a very skilled welder, £10/hr wouldn't do it, you'd need to pay more like £20.
but i suspect the taiwanese welders earn slightly more than £1.25/hour.
i'm not sure that bikes are made in taiwan because it's cheap, i suspect bikes are made in taiwan because they're very good at it.
it's an illustration/estimate of the cost difference for making a frame in britain vs taiwan/china.
simplified to the point of absurdity - making it a pointless illustration
however
Orange 5's are not expensive because they're made in britain, they're expensive because people will pay for them
is correct
If I had to try and put my finger on it i think many peoples objection to the stereotypical Five owner is probably based on the Balls they read in the various comics the Five is a bike that the likes of MBR and MBUK 'journalists' consistently seem to get a Fruity Lob on for; as these Mags are primarily targeted at the [I]"Audi driving, IT Managing, South East dwelling, more money than sense" ****s[/I] it's quite understandable that peolpe have made the connection between Product 'A' and Target audience for crappy Magazine 'B' and decided that owners of 'A' Must Read 'B' ergo they are more than likely to be a complete 'C'...
Obviously the rule to apply is; Never let actual Facts get in the way of a good Stereotyping/hate campaign...
out of interest Where do we stand on ownership of a 224? or a new style Patiot is there a corelation between the Owners ****ery and the suspension Travel and newness of their Orange? ie:
2012; 224 = Total Cock wand.
2011; Patriot = a complete Tit.
2009: five = common or garden IT ****ist.
2002: Sub 3 = Not so bad, could stand them for an hour or two
1996: Rigid clockwork = Alright bloke, I'd probably buy Him a pint
Owner of the original prototype P7 = "Here, have my left kidney even if you don't need it, just in case..."
Is that the sort of scale we're working on?
I'm not going to read all the posts in this thread, [b]obviously[/b] ...
... but I like Orange bikes
... I also dispair of this forum sometimes
I quite like bikes that are orange, as for Orange bikes; I like that they're made here but haven't ridden one. Judging someone on the brand of their bike seems a bit.... meh to me. Not the prettiest bikes, but I quite like the industrial look.
As above I can't be fannied to read 5 pages of STW hair splitting.
Are you aware that an average chinese/taiwanese aluminium hardtail frame has a more expensive paint/decal job than the cost of manufacturing the bare frame itself? 'tis true.
I cannot disagree that the far east are indeed very good at manufacturing frames. They've had years and years of practice making millions. I cannot however, agree that Orange are expensive because people will pay whatever price for them. I'm sure they are trying to be competitively priced as possible but they're never going to manufacture as many bikes as the big guns, therefore they're not going to be equally priced.
Out of interest, If Orange Fives were made in Taiwan,China, Cambodia, Vietnam or whatever, and they were let's say 20/30% cheaper, would things be different or would people still have their issues/opinions?
Cookeaa, stop it, I'm crying with laughter! 😀
Thing is, if it’s taking them more than 4 hours to weld up a frame, they’re doing it wrong.Tell you what, I’m feeling generous, give ‘em a day.
8 hours x 9 = £72.
Treble it for taxes and hidden costs and extras and things.
£216.
Orange 5's are not expensive because they're made in britain, they're expensive because people will pay for them.
Good luck to them, they're doing well.
So when you treble it for the "hidden costs and extras and things" I take it your including the R & D, Marketing, Wages - not just the welders but Accts department, marketing team etc then there is also general building costs such as electricity, building rent, insurance etc plus let's not forget they're a business so they're actually trying to make a profit and then after all of that the bike shop has to make a profit it as well because they also have the same overheads as Orange minus the R & D and I would assume and this all comes to your "generous" £216? 🙄
SC moved production to the FE (early nomads were built in the US), the move had no effect on the price of the bike and very little impact on its desirability.
Like most products manufacturing costs have little impact on the list price which is driven by marketing. There is a waiting list for 5s so their pricing is obviously bang on.
My brand new Alpine 160 frame with CCDB cost me a smidge over a grand. Pretty good value compared to the competition 8)
teadrinker - MemberSo when you treble it for the "hidden costs and extras and things" I take it your including the etc...
R & D? - Orange?
but anyway, sort of, yes.
i wasn't trying estimate the cost of making a frame in britain, but trying to estimate the [i]difference[/i] in costs between a 'made in britain' frame, and a 'made somewhere with labour costs £9/hr cheaper' frame.
on the rough guess that: for every worker you have welding, you'll have 2 workers doing HR, cleaning, admin, etc...
prahran - MemberOut of interest, If Orange Fives were made in Taiwan,China, Cambodia, Vietnam or whatever, and they were let's say 20/30% cheaper, would things be different or would people still have their issues/opinions?
I cant speak for everyone, but for me, if they were cheaper, I wouldn't think they were expensive.
This thread's gone from bad to worse! Now you are slagging off the 5 Spot which just happens to be the other bike I own along with a Five!
I'm not some pretentious **** though who just buys status symbols. I bought the Five second-hand for a very good price when it was less than a year old and the 5 Spot I also bought second-hand as a bare frame again for a price it would have been rude not to.
I bought the 5 Spot as a bike to build up for my grandson and he absolutely loves it, as I do the Five. I think all of the generalisations on here are completely pointless but do agree the thread has been amusing...
Good work cookeaa, you tell those imaginary riders! They're so full of themselves!
Well my Hemlock's got about 50 bearings, but they don't need replaced often, and when they do it takes an hour and about £20.
Actually, on another note. Some frames seem to be right sods for this, really could never be arsed with the ones on my Meta. The Five has the two with little allen key split jobbies, really quick job I'm assuming, certainly looks less intimidating/risky.
Seems like a very small plus to nit pick on, easier has to be better than harder and requiring a variety of weird sized drifts? 🙂
[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/sooooo-hemlock-owners-any-tips-to-shift-these-bearings ]http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/sooooo-hemlock-owners-any-tips-to-shift-these-bearings[/url]
I love mine, I just wish it was a wee bit easier to change the wee b*****d bearings! Grr, aargh.
😆
LOL @ 10ph for a welder of that calibre LoL
What a thread!
There are hardly any Oranges around here. It must be a regional thing as has been pointed out.
I've had a Sub Zero and a 224 and now have a Blood.
I'll see myself out.
1,350 for a Five frame.
That's quite a good price considering other companies charge a small fortune for single pivot frames.
nah, thought better of it... I can't be bothered
Well played Toasty- as it turned out, what made it so difficult was a bit of crap advice I'd been given, doing it this time was a different story. Live and learn eh.
The main pivot's easier to swap than on a Five btw 😉
Erm Cookeaa. Where does that put me?! 😀
What orange need to do is have someone high up in design or marketing on this forum answering questions/posts.
This would cut down on the negativity and there would be loads who would then jump on the leave them alone bandwagon.
I'm sure I've seen it working before!
A friend of mine owns an Orange P7. He's always wanted an Orange since he was a boy. He finally has his dream bike and in two years he's ridden it three times. They're just the sort of bike people lust over.
I've never ridden one myself but would like to try some out. I think the 5, Patriot and is it Alpine are really nice looking bikes. Those sharp straight lines look nice compared to a lot of these funny looking hydroformed jobbies.
Like the britishness.
Don't like the aesthetics of the FS bikes much.
Don't give a hoot about who else rides one or that they (probably) drive a diesel Audi.
I would buy one if I was in the market and it was the right tool for the job (also applies to Audi)
Well done Orange for apparently succeeding in manufacturing in.the UK
Not sure how you can hate a bike company anyhow. I can understand being disappointed with one
I've just balls'd it up but, wheheyyy 224 post's!!! 😆
Oranges are nice
Oranges are nice
And if you buy them from Asda
They're quite reasonably priced
what made it so difficult was a bit of crap advice I'd been given, doing it this time was a different story. Live and learn eh.
Clearly all those other people in that thread, and the bike shop you had to resort to taking it to when you failed yourself, all had that bad advice. It's not that it's just really hard or anything.
Claim to win the internet:
when they do it takes an hour and about £20.
Truth from previous thread:
I gave up on it and took it to the bike whisperer, who said quote "That was a total ****er of a job" I think eventually he dynamited it out. But all was well after that.
Priceless.
Oranges are nice
Oranges are nice
And if you buy them from Asda
They're quite reasonably priced
Yeah but they'll most likely be rotten by the time you get home, you have to check the date on stuff in there, you're lucky if most of their fruit & Veg has more than about 24hrs to go till it use by date.... Sorry slipped back into STW litteralist pedant mode...
Buy a bike, ride a bike, bicker on a web site...
Ignoring the obvious character flaws of those who buy Orange for a second, where does the great STW Hive mind stand when it comes to the associated personal value and lifestyle statements that go with ownership on various other Brands of bicycle?
Another (Utterly baseless) Proposed scale is needed perhaps:
Giant = An utterly dull Human being, probably works in insurance, fantasises about killing co-workers and/or customers.
Specialized = Party animal, serious drinker, may have been involved in a hit and run.
Canyon = Cheapskate, secretly harbours racist views.
Ellsworth = Gambling addict, significant personal finance issues, may be involved in people trafficing
Kona = Serious anger managment issues, a ball of seething rage, seems ok but could flip at any moment, Has Killed more than once without provocation (and avoided prosecution) Avoid at all costs!
Yeti = Sexual deviant, carrier of at least one STD, sexual contact best avoided.
Santa Cruz = Drug addled monster Coke-head, may start fitting halfway through a ride...
----------------------------
I have to say that lot make Five owners seem relatively acceptable....
I think it is a regional thing...
At Easter i was riding the CRC Marathon at Builth Wells and along the way got chatting to a pleasant Welsh chap on a borrowed Giant (he'd broken his own bike earlier in the week) and we were talking about the terrain in our varoius locales and he asked what bikes were popular up by me. Orange 5's i told him, you can't hardly ride out with seeing on on the hills - he was quite surprised as he said he only ever saw them at a Welsh trail centre when he paid an occasional visit to such. Apparently where he rides Giants are really popular.
Spot on cookeaa 😆
Cookeaa... brilliant.
Yeti = Sexual deviant, carrier of at least one STD, sexual contact best avoided.
😀
I have three for four mates with Yeti's... just the thought makes me laugh. They couldn't be further from that description but hilarious anyway!
cookeaa PMSL 😀
muddy, some of the local variation may come from club/shop affiliation. Cyclepedia in Cardiff effectively run the popular and successful JIF club (alumni include a certain G Thomas). Cyclepedia are a big Giant dealer, regulars get a discount there, people see their mates on bikes and/or borrow them, hey presto you get a group of 20 all riding Giants.
I live in Halifax and funnily enough don't actually see that many orange bikes out and about round here.
It probably depends what you want from a bike and where you ride. There is a reason they are proular up here in the lakes.......they are great on the rough stuff!
This comes from a 1x5, 2xp7 household 😀
Toasty - MemberClearly all those other people in that thread, and the bike shop you had to resort to taking it to when you failed yourself, all had that bad advice. It's not that it's just really hard or anything.
Seems quite probable- the bad advice was repeated in the thread after all so at least one othe rperson had it, and I passed it on to the bike shop where it also caused problems- should have left them to get on with it tbh.
But, as I said, I've just done it again and it took about an hour, so.
I'm pretty fond of mine...
[url= http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7101/7229418738_f22b81ef2a.jp g" target="_blank">
Pfft mincer.... Pre jump 😉
What a pathetic topic, no wonder people slate this site, full of ****ers.ride what you want, ride what you can afford but more importantly don't judge people for the bike they ride or the car they drive.too much typing and not enough riding,prob due to lack of skills.
What a pathetic topic, no wonder people [s]slate[/s] love this site
fixed that for you!
Audi in grey - check
Sub Five - check
C-16R - Check
Living the dream.