[Closed] Orange 5 "lost" in the post

Do you have to refund the buyer before you get the refund?

Not sure how this works as I've never been in that position!

Hope it all ends well though...

I've never heard anything as ridiculous in my life - You handed it over, gained a receipt.

Refund due, all costs due immediately to you regardless of insurance being taken out or not - SIMPLE AS.

I've sent tons of frames uninsured, hardly ever lost.

I always insure everything I send above a few quid- its not expensive to do so

Its the sellers responsibility to get the goods to the buyer so that refund is right - claim fro the post depends on the contract if its not insured there might be a maximum liability although I would be think i=of reporting it as a theft perhaps

Are you sure the buyer isn't doing you over? If you have a tracking number make sure you add it to your eBay listing.

^ same as al.

godzilla's spot on- insurance/tracking isn't just to protect yourself against random mail thieves, damage and loss- it protects you fron the buyer too.

something that big didnt get lost in the post.. are you certain it didnt arrive at destination

hardly ever lost.

I never send anything uninsured anymore after being scammed (probably) a few times , as mentioned above a few extra quid on the post costs for peace of mind/pocket .

However hindsight is a great thing and we sometimes learn the hard way.I did.

I found talking about involving the police got compensation moving quite a lot faster when something my brother sent me went missing at a parcel force depot. I know someone who used to work at one and apparently thieving was pretty routine. This was quite a while go though.

Have you got a tracking number?
Get the depot to try at PARC. Its the place they leave any parcels that don't have an address or return details.
Try Islabikes. They have a parcelforce contract. If the label had come off someone may have assumed it was an Islabike and returned it to them.

I always insure everything I send above a few quid- its not expensive to do so

I always pay for insurance and I've had a number of items damaged and missing. I have followed all of Parcelforce's procedure, including the ridiculous time limit for claims and I have NEVER been succesful on any claim. They are absolute scumbag thieves and I would never use them again.

To the OP I hope you get lucky with it and get it back.

try using parcel2go, I sent a 30kg rackmount server with city link through them and it arrived soaking wet, completely dead. I had no pictures or evidence and it wasn't insured. I submitted a claim, not expecting anything, and got a cheque in the post a week later. Always good to use a fronting company, as they arrange everything and deal with any problems themselves.

I get the feeling you've been done one by the buyer... 😐

OP says it didn't get there; how is that the buyer?

Parcelfarce tracking will show if not delivered; it puts the responsibility in them.

But sending something of value without insurance is just plain bats.

^^ I think the assumption here is that the OP's knowledge of the item not arriving is based on the buyer telling him so.

If Parcelforce turn round and say it [i]was[/i] delivered, my next phone call would be to the Police, definitely something fishy going on.

My ebay rating is on 465 transactions IIRC, there's been more that that and some here too. I can think of 1 item that got lost in the post. I only insure above the standard depending on the cost usually, sometimes the insurance is really expensive, but I will tend to do so on high value items.

I don't see how this could be reported as theft, what evidence is there? OP is claiming so courier will investigate.

If the item has arrived at it's intended destination (ie the buyer is lying) then a theft has occurred. OK, so technically it's actually 'Fraud by false representation' but you get what's meant. Parcelforce should be able to say whether the frame was ever delivered, if it was and the buyer is saying otherwise, [i]somebody[/i] is telling porky pies and the frame has been nicked by [i]someone[/i].

If the buyer is indeed being honest, then Parcelforce have lost the frame and they are liable, I've got a horrible feeling the standard uninsured value they put on things is something like "Not exceeding £50" though. 🙁 I'd still be tempted to involve the Police even in this case, however. As [b]totalshell[/b] pointed out above, a mountain bike frame doesn't just get misplaced under a stack of envelopes or at the bottom of a mailbag. If it's gone missing, then somebody in the postal chain has half-inched it.

It's the oldest eBay scam in the world, if you buy ANYTHING and pay by PayPal then recive the item and it comes with no tracking number all you need to do is tell eBay you never got the item and you will be refunded in full. I do loads on eBay and people try it on all the time, I got done on a small scale years ago and never again.

[b][u]godzilla[/u][/b] - [u]Member[/u]

It's the oldest eBay scam in the world, if you buy ANYTHING and pay by PayPal then recive the item and it comes with no tracking number all you need to do is tell eBay you never got the item and you will be refunded in full. I do loads on eBay and people try it on all the time, [b][u]I got done on a small scale years ago and never again.[/u][/b]

Snap. I now insist on sending anything I sell on eBay, no matter how small, by Signed For delivery or the buyer collecting in person. There's few very things in this world that can make your blood boil like knowing you've been stolen from.

There's few very things in this world that can make your blood boil like knowing you've been stolen from

I dunnno - having to trail to the sorting office to pick up a small, cheap item beacause an Ebay seller is being over cautious is quite annoying.

Ebay - a crap place to sell bikes - full stop.

I adopt a slightly different approach - I make it clear that, once payment has been received, the item belongs to the buyer and that title risk (i.e. obligation to insure) has transferred to them at that point.

But it's interesting that small scale scamming on untracked items is sufficient to be a problem. I'll think about that in future.

I've sold a few items on here over the years and I ALWAYS use a fully insured service with full tracking - Royal Mail Special if it's small enough, usually TNT if it's a big parcel. It's worth the extra few quid for peace of mind and buyers seem to appreciate it as well.

Never had any problems selling on here, all the buyers have been sound.

[b][u]oliverd1981[/u][/b] - [u]Member[/u]

I dunnno - having to trail to the sorting office to pick up a small, cheap item beacause an Ebay seller is being over cautious is quite annoying.

I should perhaps have mentioned that I state quite clearly in all my listings that any postage will be Signed For and that that is non-negotiable. That way, any interested parties know exactly where they stand and can elect to look elsewhere if they feel I'm being unnecessarily over-cautious.

I've been ripped off in the past for, admittedly, fairly small amounts. I couldn't give a toss if someone only stole a pound or a penny from me - they've still stolen from me.

Whether buying or selling, recorded/signed-for delivery gives me peace of mind. I'll also insure anything I'm selling that's valued more than the maximum the P.O. will cover without a premium.

i'd say the frame did reach the buyer and he claimed it didn't
therefor got a frame for free.

I sell alot on ebay and never send anything without signed for delivery

I adopt a slightly different approach - I make it clear that, once payment has been received, the item belongs to the buyer and that title risk (i.e. obligation to insure) has transferred to them at that point.

I'm not sure you can do that - even as a private individual. You subcontracted the delivery of the object to someone else and paid them. The buyer paid you and I'd say that makes you liable. The only way I'd see that as a legite approach would be if they arranged the courier and paid for it and they picked it up from you. Even then as you packed it, if it got damaged in transit the fault could be yours.

I only ever send items with tracking and ensure the advertised postage costs is enough that I'm not out of pocket(or price accordinglty if an all up price). I don't however share the tracking data with the buyer any more - too many times, especially when sending overseas, the parcel has arrived but not tracked - a sleazy buyer might take advantage of that if they are aware of it.

The problem with 'Signed for Recorded' is that the buyer can simply claim the signature isn't his/hers and eBay will take their side and refund them
You then get the double whammy of the PO refusing to pay out as they have a signature and therefore it's been delivered

I've sold a few items on here over the years and I ALWAYS use a fully insured service with full tracking - Royal Mail Special if it's small enough, usually TNT if it's a big parcel. It's worth the extra few quid for peace of mind and buyers seem to appreciate it as well.

+1

Can't see this being the receiver saying he never got it, from the OP:

After much communication with the depot

They'll know if they delivered it, and that would be the first thing they'd say, so this sounds like it's 'gone missing' in the chain somewhere. We had it happen at least once when sending bikes.

Has anyone actually manage to do a successful claim from Royal mail? I know I haven't, I never pay for extra insurance simply because they rarely pay out. Just make sure you cover yourself with a Basic tracking number because Royal mail PayPal & eBay are not on your side.

I'm not sure you can do that - even as a private individual. You subcontracted the delivery of the object to someone else and paid them.

I can.

I haven't subcontracted the delivery. I am agent for the seller.

wrong imo - and as far as I'm aware in the opinion of the law too - though might be different for a private individual - certainly would be for a company. How would you feel if an online shop did that to you?

edit - just to add if you arranged and paid for the delivery the company would not deal with the buyer for the claim - only with you as it is with you they have a contact.

The contract is that you supply the goods, the buyer pays. the contract is only complete once you have the money and they have the goods.

Its the sellers responsibility until delivery

With big ticket stuff I'd be tempted to stipulate that the buyer arranges their own courier
I'll pack it and address it and be available to deliver it to the couriers depot - Parcel2Go do this at newsagents etc. now for a reduced rate - once I have the paperwork saying it's been delivered, I should be clear of further responsibility for it.

If they pay by PayPal and you let the item go with their courier you will not be covered, your leaving yourself open to being done over.

wrong imo - and as far as I'm aware in the opinion of the law too

Not so. The law is quite clear on this. In fact, all I'm doing is making clear well established law.

EDIT: But you've got me thinking. I think I need to make this more clear in my ads.

I deal as a private individual - what mail order businesses do is subject to, among other things, distance selling regs.

I adopt a slightly different approach - I make it clear that, once payment has been received, the item belongs to the buyer and that title risk (i.e. obligation to insure) has transferred to them at that point.

TJ is right. You can't do that. It's YOUR responsibility until the item is delivered. If it goes missing, YOU refund and YOU claim on the insurance. I've had to do it myself. It's just tough.

I've only ever sentone thing insured and that was the only thing that's ever been 'lost'
I think insuring it just highlights as something worth nicking.
And Royal fail were a PITA to get compensation out of.

I dont know if any one will bother reading this (i skipped through the last few posts) and i do tend to go a bit 'ar and peace' on the subject of ebay... But heres my 5c anyway.

Op - As previously said, its mor ethan likly that the buyer didnt have to sign for teh delivery and has climed that it never arrived as a result (happens all the time with parcel force)...

as for ebay - yes its a crap place to sell, but its the best place to buy. Personaly i'll always try to offer special delivery on small items, but RM cover items below £36 in value on 1st class anyway so sneding low value items via SD is pointless.
I've claimed with RM on a set of bars which got lost, sold them for £20 (rrp of £50) and claimed £30 from RM for the bars to cover the loss of fees and postage and got it back within 2 months.
Any item valued over £36 i send via courior for larger items and RM SD for smaller and include this is as free postage within the listing.

What really gets my goat is the new feeback system where buyers can leave 1,2 or 3 stars feedback for postage, and complain about high postage cost in the feedback! if you dont want to pay £6 postage, dont bid! or at least bid 2or3 pounds less than you would be prepared to other wise. For this reason as stated above i now generally offer free post on most items - that way i usually get a little more for the item and no complaints of high postage costs.

TJ is right. You can't do that. It's YOUR responsibility until the item is delivered. If it goes missing, YOU refund and YOU claim on the insurance. I've had to do it myself. It's just tough.

I can. It's just contracting out of s32(2) SGA.

My experience of Parcelforce is that insured items require a signature upon delivery, so from the OP, it would seem the buyer isn't trying it on. I did once have to pursue a claim for a lost (expensive) parcel myself - whilst I did eventually get a refund, it took months, leaving me out of pocket as I'd had to refund the buyer.

I can. It's just contracting out of s32(2) SGA

I'm sure you can't opt out of laws as and when you feel like it. It isn't a buffet

Courts are tending to take the view that if the goods don't get
delivered and the seller hasn't insured them (or self insured - ie
accepted responsibility if they are lost) then the second part of
para 32(2) comes into play:-

".. and if the seller omits to do so, and the goods are lost or
damaged in course of transit, the buyer may decline to treat the
delivery to the carrier as a delivery to himself or may hold the
seller responsible in damages."

The net result of the explicit timing of passage of risk in consumer
contracts and implicit requirement for the seller to make safe
arrangements for passage in S32 mean that for all practical purposes
risk remains with the seller until the goods are safely delivered to
the buyer.

Remind me not to buy anything from you. Ever.

You can legally transfer title at the point of sale/transfer if that's what both parties agree to. it's then the buyer's choice how to actually get the goods to them - eg whether to take out insurance, etc. You would need to state that very clearly though and ensure both parties ate clear on what it means.

the issue with trying that on eBay is that it's probably against their Ts&Cs and as such you'd lose a claim. exactly where you stand legally is debateable.

do you know the frame serial number? may be worth emailing a few people with it...also google alerts.i used it a few years back and got a few items id lost

I can. It's just contracting out of s32(2) SGA.

To me that means the buyer makes the decision, on if they want to insure it them selves or leave it to you. If they say nothing, then your still legally responsible to get the item to the buyer. Just because you say its their responsibility doesnt make it so.

the issue with trying that on eBay is that it's probably against their Ts&Cs and as such you'd lose a claim.

Interesting point. I'll look that up.

(Although, of course, disputes are a matter - ultimately - for the courts. I'm not certain ebay has jurisdiction over the English legal system..!)

ParcelMonkey have given me full refunds on 2 sales that failed. Both bike related. 1 bike, 1 Thule rack.

They took 3 weeks... but gave me full value.

What really gets my goat is the new feeback system where buyers can leave 1,2 or 3 stars feedback for postage, and complain about high postage cost in the feedback! if you dont want to pay £6 postage, dont bid! or at least bid 2or3 pounds less than you would be prepared to other wise. For this reason as stated above i now generally offer free post on most items - that way i usually get a little more for the item and no complaints of high postage costs

Has anyone actually manage to do a successful claim from Royal mail? I know I haven't, I never pay for extra insurance simply because they rarely pay out. Just make sure you cover yourself with a Basic tracking number because Royal mail PayPal & eBay are not on your side.

Whenever I sell anything, I [i]always[/i] make sure it is signed for, and that it is insured for the full value.

I lost my fox36s to parcelforce. Persistence and complaints win.

godzilla - Member

Has anyone actually manage to do a successful claim from Royal mail?

Aye, half a dozen times or so... Only one that wasn't succesful was the one I completely ballsed up.

Sold dozens of bits through ebay (from cheap/small to expensive/large) and never had a problem. I always go to our local Post Office and use them - and ensure its insured/signed-for. Small stuff is wrapped in black plastic and larger stuff in whatever cardboard box I had.

Only problem I've ever had was one buy (envelope turned up empty), and even then it ended up only costing me a tenner so CBA to raise a 'theft' note with the Police as required by ebay/Paypal.

[i]Do you have to refund the buyer before you get the refund?[/i]

And to me, you refund the Buyer first.

Do Parcelforce say they have a signature? Have you asked to speak to the depot manager and asked him to interview the driver (i.e. did he deliver and can he remember what the person who signed for looked like).

Its 'odd' that its gone missing IMO. Only once did it happen to me and I was fairly well convinced it was the Ebay buyer. Anyway I made him wait for his refund until I got mine (before the days of Ebays ownership of Paypal). Parcelforce sent me countless letters with 'if you dont reply within two days we'll close the case' requesting menial/silly bitty information. After the third one I called the Service centre Manager and said I wanted the Police involved. I received a cheque two days later.

How much feedback did the Buyer have? Its worth watching/if its close enough...a visit 😉