Bit of market research here, do people still buy off the peg hardtails?
I am thinking of offering a 26er and 29er HT for around £1400 each, but to get the price keen it means commiting to quite a few groupsets etc, so before i do that i wondered what and if people do buy full HT bikes or just frames?
I see On One offer the 456 carbon for around that sort of money, with an OK spec, so they must sell a few?
i do/did 😉 [IMG] 
[/IMG] 😀 any excuse to post a pic 😉
i reckon more off the peg than custom
Yeah, but I think what you have to do is get all the kit on the bike at equal standard, and not put an XTR rear mech on if it means you end up with a 2.5kg wheelset. Hate seeing bikes like that.
Yeah, once I'd realised I couldn't be bothered tinkering and speccing and fiddling around with incompatible kit, I just plumped for an off the peg Whyte 905. Pretty much perfect out of the box for £1500. Any upgrades would only save token amounts of weight.
I'm with RealBoy on that one. Saw an MTB recently, cant remember what it was; had a SRAM XO rear mech, and X7 other bits, cheap finishing kit etc. I figured it probbly cooduv bin kitted out with X9 level stuff throughout for the same price, and have better finishing kit.
And as for mechs; I'd much rather have decent wheels than tarty mechs. Mechs, cassettes, chains, chainrings can wear out quite quickly, but a decent set of wheels can last years.
Cheap seatpost and bars is ok, as upgrades in these areas make very little if any real 'improvement' to the ride. And most people will have their own saddle preferences, so again not worth bunging spensive ones on.
Yes, just bought one. But a nice and "balanced" spec. was hard to find.
Found one in the end tho. but it was an '09 model.
Very nearly bought from the Boardman range.
There must be lots of people who don't have a set of parts waiting to go on a bike and in overall uk sales surely it must be 10 bikes for 1 frame even for bikes over a grand (might be worth checking if any one actually has this figure?.
But on the other hand if you marketing is word of mouth via forums then the your target market may be different. Regular forum users probably buy more frames compared to the average guy walking into a bike shop.
I think the 2 main things are:
will it be good value compared to other direct sales bikes (on one Merlin etc.) I don't mean cheaper I just mean that when people look at the spec they can see what they are getting extra for the money
Will you be marketing/advertising the complete bikes?
just my thoughts I've no experience of the trade
I think Realman makes a good point especially if your market is people who know a bit about what they are buying. I bought an off the shelf Boardman from 2010 with the idea that it might be a donor bike but in reality it's so well matched throughout I've felt no need to do it.
Bikes these days rarely come with pedals because people have preferences and have bought into systems but I think you could offer options on tyres and saddles as well as much of your market will have definite preferences on these. Many people may be happy to buy without tyres or saddles as they have those ready to swap to a new bike. I've changed those bits on the Boardman and I would imagine they are the most commonly swapped items on stock bikes.
I just did but in fairness, was a 29er. My first proper hardtail was off the peg, ever since then everything has been frame only and transfer kit until the 29er because obviously stuff wouldn't transfer as easily.
I think you do get a better deal clearly than buying a frame and all the parts individually, but as others have said you then have to stick with the bike companies idea of a spec instead. Until as Fred said, it wears out and you upgrade.....
Having built up a bike frame recently, it would save the hassle of finding out that things like the Bottom Bracket specifications are wrong, so you end up buying and attempting to fit a 73mm Bottom Bracket, when it's actually a 68mm Bottom bracket!
Not everyone has the skill or competence or the tools to build a bike up themselves, being able to buy the complete bicycle at a reasonable price point must be a good marketing tool!
It all does rather depend on the amount you think you can sell and of course the labour involved in getting these bikes built too.
For me I bought a on one single speed and built it up. It is very time consuming as well.
theotherjonv makes a good point. If you are selling a 29er, at the right price point, it might encourage folk to buy one if it's a complete build as there will be a lot fewer folk with 29er forks and wheels to be swapping around.
Many people may be happy to buy without tyres
I don't think I've ever seen a bike that doesn't come with tyres..?
Remember, you're up against stuff like this too
http://www.canyon.com/_en/mountainbikes/bike.html?b=2060
Some interesting points, thanks. I agree about the spec thing, hopefully I will be using a full x9 group with a decent fork and wheel set.
Working on a 29er spec, bit more of a challenge for the £1400 target price.
That canyon is a good target, hopefully can get close to that
I've no real experience and would build a HT from scratch - I just recently finished one with parts mainly from the classifieds on here (thanks all!). However, if you get the right price point I think more people would buy off the peg.
I'd say if you're talking £1000 or less folks would go off the peg, plus you'd also be within the bike to work scheme limit which must generate a lot of sales.
If someone is going to spend upwards of £1000 on a hardtail I'd guess they know what they're looking for and would consider building their own. Alternatively they could just have too much money, but if you count on that kind of customer they'd be too few and far between to hit any decent kind of volumes?
If it's a SRAM groupset, I'm out. No point in crippling the thing at birth.
Isn't this place a bit too nichetastic too representative?
One off the pe HT and one frame only HT.
Druidh, no likey SRAM? I quite like the new 2x10 stuff.
I agree with a lot of the stuff above. I've built a few bikes and bought a few off the peg. I don't like that the big names hide cheap headsets, bb and hubs by putting bling in other places. People often say it's all about the frame as you can upgrade but when I buy a complete bike I often pick a price point and want a good balance of components. I don't some really expensive key components compromising the ride in other places. Put SLX kit all over rather than xtr rear mech and cheapo hubs.
If you are thinking of variety then I'd be interested in the offer of tough builds and light builds. Some people care about weight, some people about toughness.
Actually, I don't but I was really trying to make a point. No matter what you decide on, you'll immediately put off folk who have specific preferences 🙂si_progressivebikes - Member
Druidh, no likey SRAM? I quite like the new 2x10 stuff.
After years of building up my own 'mongrels' I bought a whyte 905 a few years ago, now my only mtb (although I did change the forks).
3 things made me buy a full bike
-It was in a sale
-I had just had kids so didn't have time to build
-I was going to change to a lighter HT due to more limited riding.
However, the spec was all round good, no cheap headset, hope hubs, just the kind of stuff I would have specced on my own bike..
i think a large % of people on here would build their own.
people new to the sport or 70% of mag readers (MBR etc... only say that as Singletrack seems to have lots of frame reviews and therefore the readership is more savvy re. spannering) are, i think, more likely to buy off the peg.
i too would be put off buying a bike if it was kitted out with Sram.
I would probably not buy off-the-peg because no-one is building HT bikes I want: 1.7kg frame, the best fork that can be afforded matched to the frame geometry, top notch BB and hubs, decent tyres, 1x10 drivetrain, tough paintjob. I'm happy to compromise most everything else.
Personally Si, I wouldn't bother. You've not got the buying power of the big boys anyway, so it will be hard to compete on price. That and as any good businessman knows, cash is king!
Seems to me you'd have to tie up a lot of capital buying up SRAM groupsets (which would instantly alienate me too) which quite a few would probably then end up laying about for some time. And you'd not be making the kind of margins you do on the SRAM stuff as you do on the frames you sell (reseller margin Vs importer margins), so you'd be tying up more money to make a much smaller percentage profit.
If I were you, I'd offer the facility for a custom build to any customer at the price of the parts on top of the frame plus maybe £50 to build it all, as this may attract more customers, and though you might lose out on a bit of margin, you wouldn't have to tie up so much money on components not everyone is going to want!
The way I see it now is something like this... You sell a frame for say £500, it has probably cost you £200-250, so you make a good profit on it... You build that £500 frame up and sell it as a £1500 bike, and I'll bet the £1000 worth of components and your time and effort has cost you even with trade prices, in the region of £750-800. So you can make another £200-250 overall, but it has cost you another £750-800 to do... Not good maths in my book!
Keep your inventory low, your cash flow high, and major on flexibility that is the key. In your position I'd rather be selling frames and offering custom builds on them (with little or no profit on the parts) than holding lots of inventory many people might not actually want... You seen how much stuff gets sold on eBay by the likes of ATB sales et al that was bought to fit last years bikes, but never actually got sold, and now is fetching a fraction of it's original price? I've bought £120 carbon bars for £50 that way, £500 forks for £175, the list could go on...
On second thoughts, buy a load of Shimano XT and Easton kit, I'll probably be due a new drivetrains and bars/stem/seatpost next year, and will be able to pick it all up cheaply from your wholesale end of season sell off on eBay! 😉
mboy that doesn't allow for more volume on the frames just because you are now reaching people who want a complete bike.
Custom builds must surely mean you need to stock even more bits bought in even smaller amounts? I don't see how it gets round the cash flow issue?
I'm not saying you are wrong just that there are other sides to each argument
Custom builds must surely mean you need to stock even more bits bought in even smaller amounts? I don't see how it gets round the cash flow issue?
Not at all, he would only buy the bits to build the bike once the customer has placed the order. Would likely not make much margin on the bits, but better than having to stock them IMO.
As the importer he should be focussing on ways of getting the brand out there and maximising his routes to Market. I think buying a load of groupsets then creating an off the shelf standard build is not the way to go about it myself. And the money tied up in buying all the gear could be better used elsewhere. All IMO
Flexibility and cash flow are king, trust me... Seen way too many (profitable) businesses go bust in the last few years cos of poor cash-flow, too much stock and lack of flexibility.
Actually, I don't but I was really trying to make a point. No matter what you decide on, you'll immediately put off folk who have specific preferences
+1, if a bike only came with the option of SRAM, I'd be looking elsewhere. And I imagine there's [s]freaks[/s] [b]other people with a perfectly valid opinion[/b] who would walk away if the only option was lovely Shimano.
I think doing your market research on here is probably going to give you a bit of a skewed response.
don't worry, STW is not the only place I have asked the question 🙂
I think i can compete on spec and price with the big boys and I have managed to keep cash usage to a minimum to give it a go with the full bikes.
Thanks all for your contributions, much appreciated.
I reckon joe public buys off the peg bikes, I think most enthusiasts will build their own as they will have certain things like saddles / bars etc... they are very particular about.
For me I would like more 'rolling' chassis type offers. So headset (fitted) frame, decent fork options. Then maybe extend to include good wheels, and then a more expensive deal including drive/brakes.
Often when I look to change (thinking about it at the moment) all I really want/need is a new frame and fork. Potentially new BB / Headset depending on spec.
I'd say the overwhelming majority buy them off the peg. It's easy to think that the people on here are a representative sample of MTBers but they're really not.
I think people do buy off the peg, but IMO you have got a difficult job. People who buy 'off the peg' probably will want to buy from a big brand.
To attract the STW folk you are going to have to call the bike by a stupid immature name, have big forks, call it an AM bike (because afterall people ride so much harder these days)
Honestly though, to buy off the peg you need to get a good value for money bike, and looking at XT stuff at least, are you not going to be competing direct with On One too?
It's usually the stuff that is expensive to upgrade that puts me off a built bike. You see a nice frame with a decent groupset but then realise it’s got crap wheels and a cheap fork. I'd rather have a nice frame with good wheels and sacrifice the groupset. I’d buy a Deore specc’d bike over an XT one if the important bits (wheels, fork) were good. The same goes for bars, stems and saddles . Most people will swap them pretty quickly.
Maybe rolling chassis is the way to go?
... ok how about a compromise ? Same frame, but levels of finishing kit.
The reason I said XT is that Canyon do XT HT bikes for that kind of money...with good finishing kit too!
Who are your target customers?
- People new to biking?
- People replacing/ upgrading bikes?
- People looking for a new type of bike?
What's the size of this market and how many bikes will you sell?
What do your target customers want and on what basis do they make a choice?
- Brand?
- Bling?
- Reviews?
- Assuming more knowledge, spec levels?
- Price/Value?
Who are you competing with?
On what basis do they compete?
What's your selling point and how are you different from the others?
How will you get these products to the market and get the awareness up?
Add marketing costs to your build and what is the impact on the bottom line?
Sorry - I do this stuff for a living!
Last whole bike I bought was the £399 Inbred many years ago. The few frames I've had since have complied with the same seatpost, headtube, BB, etc dimensions so no probs moving bits over - eventually that'll change to a degree where a new frame will mean lots of replacement bits too. Seems these days I'd have to go tapered headtube at least.
Makes sense when people want/need a whole bike and I'd consider one if the price was right and the spec met my approval (hate things like fitting cheapo hubs/stem/bars/seatpost to get a blingy rear mech on there). Tricky to sell a "niche" hardtail whole though, too many people in the market for one will have their own ideas on what kit they'd want.
If it's small batches, maybe do it like Orange used to - pick your frame, pick your fork, pick your level of groupset/finishing kit. Probably no more cost effective than having a shop build it up for you though (like Head for the Hills do with Dialled - good/better/bling builds, which can be tailored even more to suit).
Not at all, he would only buy the bits to build the bike once the customer has placed the order. Would likely not make much margin on the bits, but better than having to stock them IMO.
Wow so for £50 quid you'd let some one send you a list of parts they liked, source them and then get them delivered and then build them into a bike. Without making any money on the parts. All so you could sell an extra frame. If we all sponsor you will you go on Dragons Den and sugest that?
If you were to do this shouldn't you try to avoid the cheap tat that the big boys use? Ie no Sram...
Santa Cruz (well Jungle), seems to strike a good balance with their off the peg offerings, a choice of fork and a choice of nicely balanced components to suit different budgets.
I still think the majority buy off the peg. Most people don't have garages full of components at home
Off the peg will always be better value, the only problem is you will get a lot of compromised parts, cheap generic: rims, posts , bars, stems etc mismatched with bling breaks and mechs.
All depends on your preference and how specific you want your bike, weight weenies, brand snobs, and anal retentives will not stand for it.
I really like the way On One offer complete builds based on groupsets, so you can buy the 456 Carbon in SLX, XT or X9 configurations. Matching the value and quality of wheels, forks and the rest of the build kit to the groupset quality will result in a bike that has what the intelligent buyer expects and would probably build for himself.
I just bought a full susser at that kinda money.
But that was a failry different bike to my other ones so less transferable kit. I'm looking at 29'ers now so full builds are tempting, but then again all I need are a frame+fork+wheels as I'll still have the rest.
So if the frame/fork/wheels were arround the same price aftermarket as the full build, I'd buy if and swap out any cheep finishing kit.
OK, I have managed to spec a full build and (i think) be competitve with the price.
I am working on a 15Qr wheelset and Fox fork too and 29er spec to be confirmed.
Also looking at a singlespeed 1k bike for both 26er and 29er.
I know it wont please some, but it looks an OK spec to me for the money 🙂
[url= http://www.progressive-bikes.co.uk/product/chumba_hx1_complete_bike/ ]HX1 complete bike[/url]
Don't recognise the wheelset, but to compare to my earlier example (this year's Whyte 905) I would definitely have considered that HX1 build, looks pretty good!
people new to the sport or 70% of mag readers (MBR etc... only say that as Singletrack seems to have lots of frame reviews and therefore the readership is more savvy re. spannering) are, i think, more likely to buy off the peg.
yeah... am I the only one who's spent years spannering, tinkering, poring over reviews etc. then suddenly realised building my own was just a pain in the ass and not worth the hassle? Maybe a consequence of always living in tiny city centre flats, but the less spannering the better for me!
am I the only one who's spent years spannering, tinkering, poring over reviews etc. then suddenly realised building my own was just a pain in the ass and not worth the hassle? Maybe a consequence of always living in tiny city centre flats, but the less spannering the better for me!
Having (almost) always managed to ensure access to a man-cave I've got the (good/bad) habbit of stripping bikes down after the first couple of rides to see what's going to last and what's good for the bin!
Pitch so far....
New rear hub bearings (they were spinning on the axle so I'd not have know without stripping it)
Bars swaped for wider/lighter nukeproofs
Reverb installed
Tyres swaped for high rollers
Pedals swaped for burgtechs
GXP BB is released on bail pending bearing failiure as it's already siezed once!
Maybe I'm wierd and like taking things apart too much!
I am working on a 15Qr wheelset and Fox fork too and 29er spec to be confirmed.
Managed to spec a 15mm QR fork for the same price 🙂
29er spec online tomorrow.
As others have said, a lot of people swap old kit on to a new frame, rather than buy a complete bike.
How about a "29er upgrade kit" ? Frame, forks, headset, wheels & seatpost only.
Allows people to build up a 29er using their existing components where possible while knowing that the new frame/forks, frame/seatpost and forks/front wheel will all match.
We have offered fork and frame deals before, which we continue to do from time to time, the full build is really to attract a different customer.
We hope to a full bike built very soon of both the 29er and 26er to give people an idea of what they will look like.
My last two bikes were bought because so much kit was worn out at the same time on my old bike that it was more sensible to buy a complete new one, than spend loads on new parts to hang on a frame several years old.
I'm kind of in that situation again now and looking at complete HTs.