Sorry devs your analogies are not relevant. Your original owner could have been a heavy guy mashing the frame. Free-ride mtbs are not expected to last long, and even the first owner was out of warranty when you bought it. SC's have a good record for breakages AFAIK (bar older Superlights IIRC)
Black and white is you have no warranty and sought to rely on Jungle's good will...they have none and are unhelpful to SH SC owners, which seems well established.
Move on...buy a SH Heckler!
OK enough now on the 'you're not the original owner' issue. I think Devs has got the point even if he doesn't agree with us. But that's OK.
Onto far more important things:
Options for replacement please!
Devs, what you want is one of these:
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Five year transferable warranty; built to last but still a reasonable weight (yes the frame is heavier than a Nomad, but it's also not going to break in five year time), exquisitely made, you get loads of colour choices, plus the Nomad's shock will also fit on it and since they don't sell their frames with a shock, you're not paying for something you don't technically need.
Also you could buy one of these second hand and still have a warranty!
Cheeky Monkey, I'm not short of a bob or two and the difference between a crash replacement or new frame doesn't bother me massively.
When I first saw the crack I thought "goody new 2011 frame" and was prepared to pay full whack for it.
If you've got loads of money and spending £2k on a new frame is no concern to you, why are you moaning about it on here. If you are prepared to pay the full price I don't see what the issue is with Jungle saying sorry as you're not the original owner you're not entitled to a crash replacement. If Santa Cruz offered a crash replacement to anyone that owned one of their frames, regardless of vintage they'd probably be inundated by owners of 15 year old Hecklers and Chameleons who's frames had mysteriously broken so that they could get 50% off the current version.
If your car was 4 years out of warranty would you expect the manufacturer to fix it for free?
I you want a good warranty you'll have to go mainstream with something like a Specialized Enduro, which has a lifetime (to the original owner!) warranty.
I wouldn't recommend anything to devs; it won't be good enough and should something go wrong in the first 10 years he'd expect me to sort it for him.
No, ta.
Clearly they already have sufficient failed frames that they don't need to investigate yours!
I think a fair and good customer service response would have been 'sorry to hear that but you're not the original customer so we don't offer reduced price replacements or warranty though we'd be very happy to order you a replacement main frame which will cost £xxxx'.
Aluminium frames will always fail due to fatigue at some point. Yours is 5 years old so failing is not unreasonable or suprising. Saying it hasn't been ridden lots is a valid point but knowing what some customers do try to get away with (classic JRA is known for a reason) they can't realistically take that into account, again, esepcially as you're not the original owner.
5 years life for a relatively light long travel frame is about right I reckon. I bought a new SC Heckler from the LBS, the BB threads ripped out after 6 months and I got a new front end. I always dealt with the LBS, bought new, had a warranty claim which was dealt with straight away by the LBS and the importer.
[quote=djaustin]Clearly they already have sufficient failed frames that they don't need to investigate yours!
This. The current Nomad frame has a different design for where the linkage joins the top tube, which would suggest they are more than aware of the potential weakness and have fixed it in later versions of the bike.
A friend broke his old style nomad in exactly the same spot 2 weeks before his warranty expired, spoke to jungle & picked up a new style frame the next day as he was in the area.
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devs - Member
If you bought a second hand car and found that the chassis had rotted through would you just accept it? Seems the norm here. The original owner thing seems like a get out clause. What does it matter who is riding it? If it's gonna break it will break.
Legally, unless the original owner (private sale) said it wasn't rotted through then that'd be your problem. As to original owner, that's already accounted for in the reduced price you pay in buying second hand - you should know you don't (usually) get warranty cover and factor that into what you pay.
Aluminium doesn't rot, it does fatigue if over stressed.
No, aluminium fatigues regardless of stress. More stress just means it'll fatigue faster.
I've worked on 50 year old aeroplanes that are structurally sound. If an easyjet fell out of the sky after being bought from American airlines and it was due to fatigue. Would boeing be able to wash their hands of it by saying that Easyjet weren't the original owner?
Not 100% sure on company to company warranty law but quite possibly if they could show that either the aircraft's stated life had been exceeded or if they could prove that the customer had failed to stick to the maintenance/replacement plan which is carefully detailed for fatigue susceptible materials which is most structural parts of an aircraft.
The bike hasn't been ridden much in the last 3 years, therefore the crack that has appeared is either due to earlier abuse or the wrong material being used, or the wrong amount of material being used.
or your unrealistic expectation on how long it'll last. Bikes are funny really - we ask them to be strong and light - the payback tends to be the life.
As I said, when I got the bike it was immaculate. Anyways, it's neither here nor there. Jungle's attitude has ensured that I will not be an original owner of a SC
On the face of it I agree - it doesn't sound like they've been very 'customer facing' however from the rest of your thread I wonder if that was in response to your attitude and unreasonable/unrealistic sense of entitlement about a cut price replacement.
it doesn't sound like they've been very 'customer facing'
I doubt they told him to "piss off" as stated in the OP, so I take the rest with a pinch of NaCl too.
Linkage bolt came lose on my Blur LT - damaged the front triangle, nothing major but I contacted Jungle as I felt it shouldnt have happened, now I was the original owner however Jungle could easily have argued that I might have removed the shock and therefore not put it back correctly - they didnt, couldnt have been more helpful as they replaced the whole front triangle - So I was very impressed with their customer service
Blimey Dev's experience does seem a bit harsh in the light of this:
scruff - Member
the BB threads ripped out after 6 months and I got a new front end
No, aluminium fatigues regardless of stress. More stress just means it'll fatigue faster.
LOL! In other news the tooth fairy really exists.
On the face of it I agree - it doesn't sound like they've been very 'customer facing' however from the rest of your thread I wonder if that was in response to your attitude and unreasonable/unrealistic sense of entitlement about a cut price replacement.
I was perfectly honest and explained everything in a calm, professional manner and asked if there was any way possible they may be able to help out. They weren't interested at all. It now has become clear why. There _is_ a problem with large frames but they will hide behind the original owner thing. I may have gotten a wee bit annoyed that their answer to everything that I asked or said was the same. A bit like a hardened criminal with the "no comment" line. I'm disappointed in them as I had become a bit of a SC fanboi and expected more from a company that I thought stood by their stuff. A frame supposedly that good should not be cracking after the amount of riding it has had. The age thing is irrelevant. I'll bet there are lots of S,M and XL frames doing a whole lot better.
I have the same frame. First I,be heard of cracking issues. I am the original owner and the bike is a 'best' bike so doesnt get huge use. Anyway when I was swapping the bearings and the rear axle had seized jungle were very helpful. My experience was positive. I also discussed the crash replacement policy which was very reasonable. Definite advantages to buying new. I also agree about numpty eBay prices on frames with no warrenty. But still muppets pay. Personally if I sold it on I would prob look to support the buyer with any watrenty or crash replacement if I could.
Ah mines a medium too.
LOL! In other news the tooth fairy really exists.
Could you let me know your thoughts on the previously unknown phenomena of aluminium [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_limit ]fatigue limit[/url] then please. There are a lot of people who'll be very interested to hear it.
Z1ppy - yes it really is a thing of beauty. Ok so it may also look like a crapping dog once you get beyond that..........
SC fanboi and expected more from a company that I thought stood by their stuff
😆 By the sounds of it they do stand by [b]their[/b] customers and [b]their[/b] products.
man inserts random wiki in as evidence. Where in that article does it say that aluminium rots without stress? It doesn't. It describes how cyclic stresses affect different materials. Aluminium not being ridden is not being exposed to any cyclic stresses.
devs, sorry to rain on your parade, but fatigue in Aluminium alloys is rather well documented by metallurgists. And 3 years after the warranty expires on a second hand frame? Good luck with that one.
FFS OK, if I have to add the caveat for the mentally dull that no stress = no fatigue, fine. The fact is that it has been ridden so it will have gone through fatigue cycles. You don't know how it's been used and neither do Jungle. A 2 year warranty means that they have figured that a big enough proportion of the frames will start breaking after that time to not be willing to warranty them.
Original customers but not their product. Yeah yeah, how very naive of me to expect a huge brand to care about the great unwashed perception of their product and service. Recommendations for replacement please. ScottChegg you need not apply, my frame was probably older than you.
Given that it seems to be a known issue with the large frames of that era, I would be inclined to write a very polite email to SC head office explaining how much you love the bike and is there any way they can help. Be truthful about the 2nd hand ownership but you never know they might offer a discounted front triangle (the nicer you are and more gushing about their brand the more likely you are to get a result).
Oh and I wouldn't mention the fact it seems to be a common failure - if it is they'll know that already.
I really don't understand why you think they have any obligation to do anything.
The bike is five years old
You are not their customer, indeed you have no relationship with themat all.
Before we get too carried away about aluminium fatigue, the frame is a large and displays all the symptoms of the design flaw as highlighted earlier in the thread. Evidence of this is highlighted in other places on t'internet also. Ok so it's taken 5 years to manifest itself but I haven't ridden the bike much in the last 3 years. I would suggest that normal cyclic fatigue is not the cause of the problem but the fact that poor design has caused 2 welds to whack against each other at full compression of the shock.
It would appear that SC have known about this for a long time and possibly explains why Jungle had no interest in my problem at all.
So clubber, you're saying that if an aluminium bike has been ridden it could fail at any time and unless it's in warranty - tough? Have you thought about a career at Jungle? 🙂
I think to many people are nit picking little bits and are really missing the point at what the OP is trying to get across.
I actually agree with devs and would feel the same as he if in a similar situation.
The guy has a BROKEN frame, from a bit of digging it seems it could be a common issue on large frames.
He phones the UK importer to see if there is anything they can do or help him out. OK he's not the original owner but he did buy a Santa Cruz and the original owner could have bought a MK2 after only owning a MK1 for a short period of time so actually Santa Cruz COULD of got 2 sales due to dev being prepared to buy a second hand frame.
However, UK importer seems uninterested in helping him out and basically tells him to go away. A friend cracked the rear swing arm of his Heckler and got the same response, after over 2 months of waiting his new swing arm came and he paid full whack.
I am sure the OP would have been happy with 'OK your not the original owner, frame is out of warranty anyway, send us the broken one and we'll sort you a new one at a discount'.
I know I would be happy with that and would stick loyal to the brand then.
You often hear people buying only Turner frames or Nicolai, wonder if that has anything to do with customer service.
Had another think - said earlier that maybe we should be prepared for performance components to fail however... as said above Turner has a fabulous rep because of going above and beyond. They dont "have to" (tj does like his black and whites and "rules" 🙂 ) but it might have been nice to. Selling Devs a new front end (if such a thing exists for an old frame) at cost is not costing them anything and might have resulted in some positive publicity. This would have been a thread about how great SC and their distributers are and read by 4 or 500 folk going away with a warm and fuzzy feeling about them burrowed away in their subconsious ready for their next bike purchase.
Shep I reckon that would crack too! As for your other link - get some time in n00b. The gonad isn't my only bike, that's the reason why it hasn't been ridden much over the last 3 years.
Shep I reckon that would crack too! As for your other link - get some time in n00b. The gonad isn't my only bike, that's the reason why it hasn't been ridden much over the last 3 years.
🙁
So clubber, you're saying that if an aluminium bike has been ridden it could fail at any time and unless it's in warranty - tough? Have you thought about a career at Jungle?
Basically, I'm afraid, yes with the added idiot clause that I don't expect a brand new frame ridden 10metres to break. As ever, it's a question of reasonable but if I bought a nearly new frame second hand and it broke, I'd be be annoyed but would have to accept that I should have bought new if I wanted to insure against that risk. I'd also hope that the distributor would be helpful and maybe offer a reduced price frame though wouldn't expect it - it's just that if they did it'd likely gain a potential future customer.
While I can see the point of view of people saying Jungle are unreasonable, it would be a [b]very[/b] good will guesture of Jungle if they did sort out any sort of replacement frame. As it is, they decided not to. If you were the original owner then I can understand you being a bit miffed, but not as a second hand owner.
I think the best course of action would be to contact Santa Cruz directly. It's their product and they maybe willing to back it up. You are not a customer of Jungle.
I do however think the attitude that you should be a first owner is short sighted. You are much more likely to purchase a new bike if you know there is a stronger second-hand value. Although that's my opinion and Jungle obviously disagree and it's their business.
It would have been nice if they'd done something- a cost replacement maybe. That'd be a good gesture and excellent customer service, and gets them good will and good publicity.
But the fact is they've done absolutely nothing wrong, and complaining about it on the internet makes no sense.
Bad news about the frame. Hope you get something sorted out without too much hassle.
I too would have expected a little more help/dialogue from them?
Have you considered a carbon nomad as a replacement?
Other than that, Specialized's replacement scheme is exemplary.
.
my only interaction with Jungle is from a bike shop perspective and dealing with supply issues; their model of waiting for a crate to arrive into port without knowing what would be on it was not exactly 'best practice'
Have you considered a carbon nomad as a replacement?
Yes. I would love one and haven't entirely ruled it out but I keep coming back to the Jungle attitude. I would be unable to accept the same attitude if my ridden 15 times in 3 years carbon frame broke and all they would say to me was - it's out of warranty we will not deal with you. Nicholai are winning so far but I would need to test one first.
[url= http://www.moonglu.com/custom-builds/ ]I know you don't like my links Dev but click this[/url]
Not too far from jungle, (6 miles) so you can through your frame at em while your up here. top blocks and have a fair few Nicolai's in.
How about a Spesh Enduro as a replacement??
They dealt with an issue with my 2010 Stumpjumper FSR frame very quickly, and it was only a cosmetic problem; the lacquer was peeling from the frame after about 7 months ownership.
My LBS said I could wait a few months for a 2011 frame as there were no more 2010 alu frames in stock or for £50 I could upgrade to the carbon version with Brain shock. So that's what I did. Was back riding in under 2 weeks.
stumpy01
I was going to get the Enduro when I bought the Nomad. Will deffo give them a look over and my LBS does them too so I'll get a test ride.
My Mk1 Nomad (large....) has had a pretty hard life on teh North Shore under it's previous owners (I just stroke it occasionally....) and shows no sign of the impacts mentioned in the MTBR thread quoted. Maybe the welder was having a good day.
Stop the press! I may just have to become the world's biggest SC fan again. Contact....wait out
😯Stop the press! I may just have to become the world's biggest SC fan again. Contact....wait out
Contact....wait out
Are you on drugs?
I had a quiet word with Rob Roskopp for him, there comes a point when someone whines so much you just want to shut them up. 😉
Send sitrep.
