[Closed] No DH WC mostly on 650b discussion?

On mass the industry is moving to 650b they are dropping 26. The 659 has taken off is mostly that there is no choice any more.
The DH world is part of the same industry they are moving across and are all bringing out prototype bikes in 650, when we get to a repeat track from last year we will obviously see the times tumble down.

A DH bike wouldn't help them, they just think it would..

So it helps their mental state then? Still works in that case 😉

while i like the idea of a Dh bike being a 'skills compensator'

my race results testify to both my epic crapness, and that i'm faster on a bike with less travel and bigger wheels (and so my dh bike is for sale - if it's slowing me down, even in Dh races, what's the point of having it?)

patriotpro - Member

Greg Minaar was on a 26er and he did OK.

he did, but Nico says he'd have been 2nd instead of 3rd, if he'd been on 650 wheels...

ahwiles - Member

didn't Nico do some testing*, and find that 650b wheels were about 2 seconds faster over a 3min course?

Yup. That was the point where lots of folks went "Seems legit- and that's basically **** all, why would we spend a fortune to change our bikes for that?" 😉 Though even then, there's no such thing as an exactly fair comparison between a 650b and 26 inch bike, just too many variables.

Racing is different but for consumers, you don't need to argue that 650b is worse or the same, you just have to believe it's a very minor improvement that requires an enormous change of components. I wonder what the bike industry would have given us this year if they'd not had to spend almost their entire r&d budget on literally reinventing the wheel (and tyre, and fork).

Have to say, I found it interesting that Nico's testing for flex showed that a less stiff bike (was it a Zesty?) was also faster- he went to the lengths of machining bits off axles etc to reintroduce flex. But yet it's still "3.4% more stiffs" that we see in the adverts and press releases. Nico's tests are only important when they align with the marketing I suppose.

It's the Nico stuff thats been extrapolated to say if he raced the TdF on 650 he'd finish 3 days before he started.

Who's Nico?

So the news is that the fast guys and girls are still fast regardless of what they ride?

patriotpro - Member
Who's Nico?

Burn him.

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if it's slowing me down, even in Dh races, what's the point of having it?

Sounds like you could do with visiting rougher/longer/steeper/faster tracks?

didn't Nico do some testing*, and find that 650b wheels were about 2 seconds faster over a 3min course?

Thats Nico. A decent rider.

Bill who works in IT- fast in Mountain Mayhem and a keen road cyclist and runner wouldn't be anywhere near Nico.

It'd be like comparing a WRC driver and me. Two planets rotating, never meeting.

Who's Nico?

Possibly the rider with the most attention to detail/testing outside of the Honda team.

At one point he won a race by not pedaling, going against conventional wisdom he did some testing, tucked rather than pedaled on the straight before the last wooded section and made up way more time by not being knackered than he lost through coasting.

He rode for Sunn in the 90's, then when they went bankrupt started V-process. Had the record as "most winningest" DH rider ever, untill Peaty overtook him. But he was riding at the same time as Peaty, just retired at 20-something rather than still going at 40.

Basicly if Nico says he was 1s faster on a setup, it's 1s faster.

patriotpro - Member

Who's Nico?

seriously?

Nicolas Vouilloz.

no-one really knows how to spell or even pronounce his surname, but it sounds something like 'voo-yoh'.

he's french, but some french people i've met say 'nah, he's swiss innit bro'.

oh, and he's 10x world Dh Champion, he retired from Dh after everyone else begged him to, at the age of 28.

he's absolutely clinical, and cold, and methodical in his approach to being astonishingly fast on a Dh bike.

hora - Member

Bill who works in IT- fast in Mountain Mayhem and a keen road cyclist and runner wouldn't be anywhere near Nico.

It'd be like comparing a WRC driver and me. Two planets rotating, never meeting.

Same goes for almost single upgrade out there - we'd all be fine on Deore and steel, but lots of us are on carbon and XTR, for the simple reason that boys like toys.

And 650 has taken off because thre's a small benefit, and companies knew they could sell that small benefit, and us lot woul dbuy it. And they have, and we did. Pointless talking about it being a big marketing scam or being unnecessary when folks (and OK, blame it on the Yanks if you prefer) are battering down the shop doors to buy Bronsons and SB ****ing 75s.

It's customer driven as much as it's manufacturer driven - every new product needs folks willing to buy it. Mountain biking has those people in huge numbers (I'm one of the afflicted)

So nice said bike a was faster than bike b on one track. We're they both the same colour? Did one have bad news attached to it?

For something with some slight statistical merit 20 bikes, all the same colour with the size label not showing on the tyre over 10 trails. Then we can look at some conclusions.

.............and be a dick about it

The margins at the top level are small and every little thing can help.

Well, every little thing apart from wearing flappy gnar [s]parachutes[/s] pyjamas. 😀

Although....

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I can't decide whether the 27.5 'revolution' was to help sell more bikes by making them slightly better than before or to give the #26forlife posse more reasons to be dicks?

I wonder what the bike industry would have given us this year if they'd not had to spend almost their entire r&d budget on literally reinventing the wheel (and tyre, and fork).

Exactly the same but with slightly smaller wheels. It isn't rocket surgery - drop the BB a bit, lengthen the chainstays a bit, move the headtube up a bit. 27.5 version of 26, done. You could steepen the head angle but that would go counter to the ongoing increased slackness year by year so you might as well leave it the same and gain more stability. If you're going to design a new frame why wouldn't you use a wheel which is a bit faster rolling, a bit smoother over the rough and a bit more stable?

If all the 4X and DJ frames were switching to 27.5 then that would just be marketing led mindless stupidity. But they're not, are they?

I love my 29er but there is not that much difference between it and my 26ers so I find it hard to see how 12.5mm is going to make any difference.

Logic fail. If you can detect a difference between 26 and 29 then it stands to reason that there will be a difference between 26 and 27.5.

Logic fail. If you can detect a difference between 26 and 29 then it stands to reason that there will be a difference between 26 and 27.5.

Not if the difference isn't linear. It's a much bigger jump between 26 and 29 than 26 and 650b.

Are people saying "oh no, my 26 is too slow, I need a 27.5"? More likely, when people want a new bike they are now getting a 27.5(or a 29) because that's the current thing.

I really fail to see why the "26 will never die" people get so worked up about it all really.

The other debate is 29 or 27.5 - Nino has done lots of testing and thinks 27.5 is faster.. 😉

Why do some people on 26" wheels like to have a pop at other wheel sizes so much?

Fear of the future

I watched with interest to see what Jerome Clementz would do for 2014 after winning the EWS on 26" last season, and given the fact he really is a very small dude (but frighteningly fast). He rode the last rounds of the EWS on the "new" Jekkyl with revised geo and linkage and capability to run 650B or 26", but opted for 26" as that was what he was used to.

Now he's had chance to really test and decide (it was left open to him by Cannondale), he's gone to 650B as he felt it a bit faster. This is a man like Nico, like Fabien Barel, who has made his living riding mountain bikes horrendously fast on all terrain. Of course there's some marketing activity to try and get people to commit to new bikes (they're companies not charities), but there does seem to be real evidence that there is something in it for the slightly bigger wheel being a bit faster for the top guys.

At "average joe" level, is ROI for bigger wheels/new bike as high as a skills course? Hmmmmmmm the jury is out on that.

I love my 29er but there is not that much difference between it and my 26ers so I find it hard to see how 12.5mm is going to make any difference.

Logic fail. If you can detect a difference between 26 and 29 then it stands to reason that there will be a difference between 26 and 27.5.

Logic Fail. 29er vs 26er = Little bit of difference (More wheel flex, more grip, momentum, wider turns)
26er vs 27.5 = so little difference that I can't tell.

I am sure it 27.5 is a tiny bit better sometimes but for what I do I would rather have a 29er for fast none hucking stuff and and strong 26er for hucking and messing around stuff.

chiefgrooveguru - Member

Exactly the same but with slightly smaller wheels. It isn't rocket surgery - drop the BB a bit, lengthen the chainstays a bit, move the headtube up a bit. 27.5 version of 26, done.

I don't buy it. Well, I'm sure it's like that in some cases, for those who were just prepared to knock out a fleet of lacklustre poorly developed bikes and spend all the r&d budget on videos of their bikes going fast. But to do it right is a serious investment of time and resources, for each and every bike or product.

A fast rider will be fast on any bike regardless of wheelside

legend - Member

Sounds like you could do with visiting rougher/longer/steeper/faster tracks?

sorry, missed this earlier...

i wish i had the time/money/skills to do that. i have insufficient resources of all of them.

when you're crap and slow like i am, a heavy, wallowy, Dh bike is of no benefit at all.

he [b]was[/b] absolutely clinical, and cold, and methodical in his approach to being astonishingly fast on a Dh bike.

fixed. remember nico's WC DH comeback.

was it one race or two?

It was Champery, and a lot of the currently (at the time) crowd didn't fare too well either