[Closed] Nicolai UK, Nicolai warranty experience, read on..

I dont know much about Nicolai, but it seems they are not being unreasonable based on their assumption you bent it.
Just remember you dont necessarily have to have crashed to bend something.
You are in a difficult situation as it would seem that after nearly a year of use the damage developed, so it would not appear to be a manufacturing fault, or a crack which would suggest a defect on manufacture, so in UK law you wuold have to prove that it is a fault that was there from new. Which I dont know how you would do.

You may not have any idea how you damaged it, but it appears you damaged it.
so you may have to accept the repair of the damaged part.

does sound like crush rather than impact caused it?

You say it's not been ridden much could it have been damaged in storage?

Crush damage seems the obvious answer, except when it is in storage it is hung by the front wheel. I tried to ascertain what level of load would be required to deform the strut without leaving a visble impact mark (in my mind the only thing that could do this is being run over by a car in a RTC) but this was not answered and I was told to ask Germany. They didn't answer it either.

I haven't been trying to pull a fast one, if I stack a bike and its mangled, fair enough I'll pay to have it repaired. But in this case I bought two bikes from Nicolai UK (one for Mrs Soulwood) and as such I would have expected a "benefit of the doubt" to be applied rather than the "Its been hit pay up" response. I can't help but think that if I had bought a Trek or some other brand then they would have weighed up the customer service/satisfaction side first.

Oh and not take nearly 3 months to resolve it and not expect you to pay to send it to the manufacturers for them to inspect as well.

I agree, you should have had to pay to ship to UK distributer, not Germany.

What a bunch of rsoles.

Not exactly a glowing review of the warrenty support from the UK distributer or the german manufacturer for a supposedly prestige frame.
That ignoring the actual fault and just going by your description of the responses from both when try to make a claim. If you buy from a UK distributer why are "you" expected to send it back to Germany?

I thought these Nicolia were supposed to be bombproof.
Going by this and the "ex-demo" nicolia thread (what happened with that in the end?), it would seem very much not.

Be interested to see what Nicolia UK have to say on the matter...

Yeah - "take it to 18 bikes" and "send it back to Germany" aren't really acceptable responses from the UK Distributor.

What reason did the UK importer give for making you deal directly with Germany and paying to post it there yourself?

Sounds a bit out of order I agree, but did you point out that you shouldn't have to?

You are forgetting you are dealing with a German company.

they dont do benefit of the doubt etc.

They would analyse the damage, review the timeline and make a decision.
Seems like they arent being totally unfair, however, Id be more unhappy with whoever you bought it from, surely its their responsibility to follow this up as your warranty claim is with them not the manufacturer.

I felt bad for 18 bikes, it was those guys that pointed me towards the Nicolai brand in the first place as they had just become dealers. I was limited to a frame that could match a 100mm fork as I couldn't afford a new fork as well. I went on the Nicolai UK website and saw the CC's for £1250 (usually at 2K with shock). I contacted them expecting that they would send it to 18 bikes for me to buy. But it was sold to me directly, and then I was told to take it to them to inspect for a possible warranty issue!

I usually start off any query with companies in a co-operative manner, and then if I have to get stroppy I can use such facts in the final case. However in this instance I just cannot be a***d to waste my time on this shower anymore.

Anyone interested in a large black & white Helius CC, due to arrive in the UK soon? Complete with a 4 yr warranty?!?

You dont need to cause damage to bend something, a mate crashed and bent his DMR frame (you could see the mis alignment between the headtube and the seattube). Looking over it there were no marks anywhere that we could attribute to the crash.

I'm not a lawyer but.....

If you mark the payment as being made under protest (i.e. you don't think it's right but you have to pay it to get things sorted) you could then go back through the small claims court to reclaim it if it genuinly was a warrnety issue?

Sancho, I agree that the quoted repair costs are reasonable, something I said to Nicolai UK from the beginning. However the bike while in my possession never received an impact to the right strut and has never been crushed while in storage or transport with a load that I would consider would have to be substantial to deform it. My question was could the tubing be at fault? Just because it didn't fail catastrophically on day one of riding it doesn't rule it out. Simon at Nicolai even admitted that he had never seen such an issue with any of the frames he had sold, but still refused to accept that it may be faulty!

Problem for you Soulwood is that for you to get a warranty replacement you would have to prove the fault.

Which is going to be difficult and may be very time consuming and expensive in itself.
In the eyes of Nicolai, you had the frame for a reasonable period of time before the problem arose, so to them it would not have been a manufacturing defect, so again it might be possible to prove but at what cost.

Sancho, fully aware of these facts, and also aware of the fact that Nicolai UK have used this knowledge to their (short term) benefit. I for one would not recommend the customer service from Nicolai UK.

you had the frame for a reasonable period of time before the problem arose, so to them it would not have been a manufacturing defect

This!

If it was wrong from new, then it should not have taken over a year for you to notice it. Metal tubes don't just bend, either it was defective from new, or something has happened to it since.

Whats happened to it in that year, only you know, and its more than reasonable for Nicolai to put "we've never seen that before" "well, in the experience of our workshop guys, its been damaged" and "he's had it for over a year" together as 2 plus 2 plus 2 equalling six.

The difficulty is in assessing bike usage in pure terms of how long you have owned it. How many people use their FS every day? every weekend? especially when you have family and work commitments? I estimated that I had ridden the Helius less than 10 times in the 12 months I owned it, due to factors mentioned above and an illness over the winter. I have a rigid 29er for commuting duties and for rides where the FS was "over biked" so the Helius didn't get used that much. But its just my word against theirs isn't it? It's for a business owner to weigh up whether they think its worth giving the benefit of the doubt to a (valued?)customer or to treat him like a child.

Zulu-Eleven - Member
If it was wrong from new, then it should not have taken over a year for you to notice it. Metal tubes don't just bend, either it was defective from new, or something has happened to it since.

Whats happened to it in that year, only you know, and its more than reasonable for Nicolai to put "we've never seen that before" "well, in the experience of our workshop guys, its been damaged" and "he's had it

I don't think Nicolai Germany's response is an unfair one. But the OP having to drag the frame around to a bike shop he didn't buy from, and send the frame to Germany isn't OK. Distributor should have taken care of all that.

No, I don't think how many times you've used it is an issue really, either it was damaged from new or it wasn't. I cannot see how an alloy tube is supposed to have warped of its own accord.

If it was, then it shouldnt have taken you a year to notice, the fact that it did, is your problem, not theirs, and they shouldnt have to give the benefit of the doubt if the delay was down to you rather than them.

But the OP having to drag the frame around to a bike shop he didn't buy from, and send the frame to Germany isn't OK. Distributor should have taken care of all that.

I got the impression they were reasonable in asking a dealer to take a look first, and clearly the dealer was very good and deserves kudos for being willing to take on the extra work despite having not made the sale - but in the end he did buy direct from Nicolai, and got a significantly reduced price in return... what the lord giveth, the lord taketh away.

I wouls mention, I've dealt with the guys at Nicolai UK myself, and found them to be professional and very keen to build and protect the brand, I'd be suprised if they had not considered things very carefully before refusing a warranty.

I'm trying to be impartial and sympathetic, but I'm in the trade workign for another company, and see a fair number of warranty claims where people are just being unreasonable in their expectations of what a company should do, where ultimatley, its down to the customers own incompetence. I see my own companies warranty cases, and we certianly very rarely refuse, and generally give the benefit of the doubt, but you have to draw a line somewhere, and frequently those people on the wrong side of that line shout very loudly about how hard done by they are.

somehow we see bikes as special, but if you had a TV for a year before taking it back saying the case was cracked from new, then you would be laughed at.

If I had a claim, whether a valid one or not, I'd expect to be able to send the frame to the distributor, and get a response one way or the other from them. If the claim is invalid, fair enough, I'll pay for a repair.

I would't be happy with being sent around to a shop, nor being hit with the cost of sending the frame to the manufacturer. It should be the distributor's call to make.

That said, if the distributor made the call and said it wasn't a valid claim, and the OP didn't accept that and demanded that it be investigated further, then that's possibly a different story.

Z11, thats a black and white answer to a matter of varying shades of grey. Mrs Soulwood received her Helius CC one week before she came down with mycoplasma pneumonia. One year on and she can manage a 30 min walk. So by your reasoning, if on her first ride it developed a fault then she's had it has she? Customer service is about dealing with people, not robots.

Sounds like it was a fun winter round your house, SW...

Sounds like you should have bought an Orange to me.

"but in the end he did buy direct from Nicolai, and got a significantly reduced price in return... what the lord giveth, the lord taketh away."

Ultimately is this the answer? Don't buy direct from Nicolai UK? What about any warranty issues stemming from purchases from dealers?

Yes, absolutley its about dealing with people.

but like anything, you have to draw a line between what is "reasonable" and "not reasonable" somewhere - I happen to think that in this case, it sounds like they have, and whilst I have every sympathy for Mrs Soulwoods situation healthwise, I cannot see that as being Nicolai's responsibility.

What about any warranty issues stemming from purchases from dealers?

Again, I don't see it as unreasonable asking you to pay for the return to the factory for inspection in a case where it was so far out of the ordinary by being a year old - I would consider it differently if it were a couple of weeks old, in which case a return to UK distributor would be a fair request.

Ultimately though this whole matter has been a learning experience. Recently watched Batman Begins "Why do we fall Master Wayne? To learn how to get up" I bought a frame that even without the shock was easily three times the cost a a Cotic Soul. I owned a Soul for 6 yrs without incident, and was for the most part my only bike. Did it develop an unusual deformation with no obvious sign of impact? No.

Did I really enjoy my biking to the power of 3 when I rode this bike? Occasionally yes. Was it worth it for the grief of this after less than a year? No.

Will I be returning to purchase 2K frames to pedal around the Peak district when a £500 HT is sufficient? I don't know.

Z11, you are not STW version of Jeremy Paxman. You are a troll. Get back under your bridge.

The problem here surely lies with Nicolai UK. I agree with Z11 re the damage and given that the evidence points to you bending it (whether you say so or not) then the deal for a new rear end sounds very reasonable. However since you bought the frame from Nicolai UK it should have been a case of return it to us and we'll sort it from here, not the option they offered which was very poor. If that is the case then you may as well just buy from Nicolai in Germany direct and the UK guys can all go find new jobs.

What - because someone who works in the industry (for another company) disagrees with you, and thinks you're being a bit unreasonable in what you expect from them, they're a troll?

Again, I don't see it as unreasonable asking you to pay for the return to the factory for inspection in a case where it was so far out of the ordinary by being a year old - I would consider it differently if it were a couple of weeks old, in which case a return to UK distributor would probably be a fair request.

Warranty on those bikes is five years. So whether it's returned after a few woeks or a year should make little difference.

Gotama regardless why did the OP have to pay carriage costs?

could it be it was always bent, but only showed up once the bushings etc wore? I don't know whether that'd cause the symptoms as described?

Just buy a Turner. Ask Hora about his experience with their CS.

Hora - Errm i think i agree with you but may not have been clear. Shouldn't have had to pay for the cost to return the frame to Nicolai in Germany, that's daft. OP pays to send back to the distributor in the UK (£25?) and they take it from there re getting it back to Germany. If it had been a warranty job then they also offer a refund of the postage cost as well as a new rear. Given that it appears the OP has damaged the frame then a new rear end at a significant reduction seems fair enough. Nicolai in Germany then either send the frame direct to the OP or via the UK distributor.

I'm a firm believer in customer service. Not make a sale and ignore unless the punter comes back with a wad of cash.

Gotama, the lengthy delay is ridiculous though.

Why not 'oh that doesn't sound right, as you bought it direct using the mail order/regs we'll get it collected asap and will comeback to you as soon as we've discovered the issue'.

MerlinCycles cameback to me within two hours with a solution.

Considering I'd bought a frame at cost price in the sale that was bloody good customer service.

Bent without damage - Badly packed bike bag on a flight?

By the way i sympathise with the OP but can see why Nicolai refuse to replace as a warranty.

Agree- sounds feasible but why the long delay in resolution?

Length of delay open to interpretation as you don't know how long the OP took to respond to Nicolai given he had more important things going on in his life and ultimately it will all have been dragged out due to arguing over cost. It went back to Nicolai in August, when did they first reply is prob a better way to judge them.

I have no idea how a bike factory works but i presume they have a quality control system that checks everything is straight before leaving the factory hence why they will believe its the OPs fault. Now it could have been bent by the UK distributor, bent in shipping to the OP or bent by him but unless someone owns up to it then the evidence points to the user bending it.

Anyone interested in a large black and white Helius CC, due to arrive in the UK soon? Complete with a 4 yr warranty?!?

I am, if that's a serious question.

I struggle to see how you bent it without knowing as the rear triangle on the CC is built out of extruded box section!

It sounds like the type of damage most likely to occur at the hands of a courier stacking heavy stuff on top of the frame box when it was enroute from Germany to Nicolai UK or from them to you. Sadly that's almost impossible to determine now and it would seem strange that it didn't exhibit the problems from new if that was the case.

Don't cut of your nose to spite your face though by selling it. Too good a bike to sell just because you're angry with the distributor/manufacturer.

How did you pay for it? cash or cc?

The first port of call for any queries about a frame is our dealer network. They have experience of servicing and adjustment of the frames and, in most cases, can solve any problems an owner is having. For most people this is far easier, and cheaper, than shipping a bike to us.

The frame was sold direct as it was end-of-line but, given Phil was Sheffield based, it made more sense for him to visit 18Bikes than ship it to us in London, especially if it might have been a simple fix.

The warranty on the frame is with the manufacturer not with the distributor. They are the only one who can make a decision on whether a frame is warranty or not – it makes no difference who you purchase from.

I don’t know why the Phil paid so much to ship the frame – checking again today £1000 insurance cover is available for <£50 today using the carrier we suggested in the box size in which we ship frames.

Delays were not all due to us. Germany did take 3 weeks to examine the frame but the owner took 3 weeks to ship the frame to Germany. Phil's emails to me were, I believe, always responded to within 48 hours but then sometimes met with > 2 weeks of silence.

The factory assessment was that this was NOT a warranty issue and that this damage could not have occurred in normal use.

Phil demanded “evidence that clearly shows that the deformation of the strut could realistically be caused by the owner in normal everyday applications. I would expect that this would take the form of information providing answers to the following questions. 1) What measurable load would the strut have to be subjected to in order to cause that deformation? 2) How could that kind of load/stress have to be applied to that strut so as not to leave a visible impact mark?”. We could no more ‘prove’ this than he could prove that nothing had ever happened to the frame.

We had discussed this with Germany and Phil, and offered him a choice of a) realignment b) replacement of the struts or c) a discount against a new frame. After a number of emails we were at stalemate. Nicolai had told us that they did not consider this a warranty issue and the owner was not prepared to accept their decision. We had done as much as we could do, short of taking the hit ourselves, so passed him on to Germany.

Great response Simon.
Loving the CC.
Richard

Re bikebag/stacking- not possible. The OP would have noticed a warped bent wheel as well? if box-section triangle could be crushed no? I.e forces involved.

simons_nicolai-uk - Member

The first port of call for any customer wanting a decent bike with top notch customer service is to purchase an Orange.

Shortened that one for you mate.

I hope I never deal with zulu eleven, being in the trade.

3 weeks to examine the frame?

Another STW'er came to check my Turner for size/fit tonight as Turner had offered him a new front triangle for $400 as he wanted/felt like really needed the size up.

Plus why did silverfish give me a warranty answer in the same afternoon?

I understand and can see your point to a degree. If I bought such a premium-priced frame though I'd expect frame pickup as the minimum immediate offer if there were no signs of user abuse (crash damage).

Even reduced I bet the frame was over a grand excluding shock?

Worse is the manufacturers 3week lag to examine. These should be immediate/urgent situations.

Anyway, moving along.

nmdbase - Member
I hope I never deal with zulu eleven, being in the trade.

I'm baffled. What has he said that's wrong? Just because he's disagreed with OP? Because he's offered an alternative viewpoint grounded in experience?

Re zulu-elevens comment. So why do manufacturers offer 2, 5 or lifetime warranties then?

I'm baffled. What has he said that's wrong? Just because he's disagreed with OP? Because he's offered an alternative viewpoint grounded in experience?

Well, as soon as I have the beans I'll be buying another Nic, (a crap powder coater killed the first one). When the numbers come up I'll have a fleet! I'm rather taken with the carbon belt driven Argon.

pppuuuurrrdddyyy

The warranty on the frame is with the manufacturer not with the distributor

But you are the seller in this case as well as the distributor. So I would have thought that the seller(Nicolai UK) would have to deal with the warranty claim and the customer direct.

If I buy a honda car I deal with the dealer where I bought the car from not the factory in Swindon.

All my experiences with Nicolai UK have been positive, even if they are sometimes slower to respond than I would like.

Shortened that one for you mate.

jeez ok we get it 🙄

I would love to know what a single strut actually costs (if that's all they needed to replace). Having taken a bike or two apart, there is not much to them.

I bet Turner would have replaced it FOC.

What would it really have cost Nicolai to replace it as a goodwill gesture?

This seems to be one of those genuinely unproveable situations which shows how a manufacturer treats a customer - IMO Nicolai UK comes across well (given Simon's post) but Germany less so. A new part would have cost them **** all and done some great pr, they've ended us with the same cost but a bad rep. instead. D'oh!

How do the latter respond in run of the mill situations?

Just out of interest how do the big firms like Trek, Spesh, Giant etc perform with warranty claims?

It would seem there is a certain superficial kudos in the MTB world when it comes to owning something niche, exclusive or made from unobtanium etc etc....and then lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth when things go wrong and said small company don't deal with the issue as the purchaser would like.

In 20 years of riding I have owned a GT, a Saracen, a Trek and a Kona....terribly boring I know but all have been faultless and never been off the road for warranty work.

That said, I wouldn't mind a Cotic Soul.

+1 for cynic-al !

had some "issues" with nic some years back (directly!)..
so I´m not really surprised ..

Just out of interest how do the big firms like Trek, Spesh, Giant etc perform with warranty claims?

I have had experience with the latter two. Put simply - Brilliant.

Ive been dealing with nicolai for a good number of years. They're not perfect, it can be mildly frustrating sometimes getting info out of them for example. However, those that love nicolai, do so because theyre not a huge corporate monster. They're engineers not salesmen and they make arguably the best frames on the planet. All hand built with amazing attention to detail. It's a small company with a small number of staff. I suspect the main reason the warranty dept is not as good as the big boys is because they very rarely get warranty returns! I've been a dealer for maybe 5 years now and I can't think of a single frame I've sold that has had to go back under warranty.

I agree that there are certainly improvements they could make to some aspects of their dealings with customers but when buying into a brand like nicolai you have to expect they're going to be a bit different. You need a bit of patience and some tolarance as youre dealing with people(and engineering people at that!), not a huge pr machine. Same goes for pretty much any exotic item worth having. Ducati, aprilia, lotus, ferrari, mv etc. very few of the truly desirable, iconic brands are perfect. If you can't accept this you need to buy a specialized, trek, Toyota, Honda etc. all make great products and no doubt have far better pr departments.

As a dealer this probably isn't something that should be said out loud but believe me, the customer isn't always right! My business is a bit different from most and I'm fortunate to have a lot of tolerant, patient customers but you'll always get the odd totally unreasonable types that are never happy and as someone said above, they tend to make the most noise!

I don't see why the OP had to post his frame to Germany himself or have ANY dealings with Germany at all.

Nicolai UK in name only it seems.

You need a bit of patience and some tolarance as youre dealing with people(and engineering people at that!), not a huge pr machine. Same goes for pretty much any exotic item worth having. Ducati, aprilia, lotus, ferrari, mv etc. very few of the truly desirable, iconic brands are perfect. If you can't accept this you need to buy a specialized, trek, Toyota, Honda etc. all make great products and no doubt have far better pr departments.

I can kind of see where you're coming from, but the pr department doesn't deal with warranty!
There's a fair few small bike companies where the customer service is pretty exemplary, companies which value the name of the brand, and go out of their way to protect it from damage- Turner and Ibis spring to mind.
In the same way good retailers as well don't have large pr departments, and still go out of their way to develop and retain their customer base- you're a good example of this yourself!

Surely your experience with warranty returns (i.e. none) might give rise to the thought that with Nicolai's rep for bulletproof frames, the rarity of warranty issues and the brand's quite obvious customer loyalty, that in this case giving the customer the benefit of the doubt might have been worth a ton of goodwill? It's not like the problem is endemic, is it?

The seller asking the customer to deal with the manufacturer is a bit off, imo.

especially small companies with a small number of stuff should have a generous and excellent handling for their few warranty issues...
the best,cheapest and most efficient pr they can get..

Sorry for the absence guys, had to go and work my unsociable hours job 🙁
Some interesting comments on here, especially Nicolai UK being unwilling to "take the hit" in regards to my "warranty claim" I guess this is my major disappointment, that after my supposedly bombproof overbuilt engineers wet dream of a bike breaking in less than a year.

There are several bike models out there that are like the car equivalent of Aston Martins, 911's etc, they turn your head, if they are parked up you go and look at them, touch them and go "wow". I considered the Nicolai to be one of those, its a prestige frame.

I found myself having the advantage of a one off bonus payment from work (and seeing how the economy is screwed I figured it would be the last for a good while) and decided to go for the Helius after much research on t'internet.

When I was told that it was faulty, this was after weeks and weeks of trying to establish what was wrong with the bike. I changed wheels and brakes in an effort to eliminate all possible causes. When I took the bike to 18 bikes I was a defeated man, broken and fed up. When I was told the rear end was bent, I felt physically sick inside. This was my one off payment prestige frame. My Aston Martin had a knackered chassis.
I had bought two Aston Martins, I was that happy with them. Did that make any difference to my cause with Nicolai UK? Nope.

The reason for my 2 week silence with Nicolai was because I was on holiday. I was told to send the bike to Germany 1 week before I went to North Wales, I was hoping to take my Helius. I frantically sourced a 2nd hand Soul (I had sold my original as I was convinced the Helius was "the" bike) and built it up to take on holiday.

I don't consider my questions to Nicolai UK to be unreasonable seeing as I was told I "must have" hit something, something that would bend the strut and not leave a mark. The bike has not been transported in a horizontal fashion while I have owned it. I have been mtb'ing for the last 22yrs, and I have owned many bikes, trashed many bikes and been involved in the business of frame building. I consider myself to have a reasonable idea of how a frame while in my possession could be damaged. It was at this point that Simon directed me to question Nicolai in Germany, who never answered the questions. Karl Nicolai told me that his sales manager would sort the matter out. After a month of waiting for a reply I contacted the sales guy and that when he made the offer.

Either Nicolai UK were being treated badly by Nicolai in Germany and just passed it on, or I just got unlucky. Either way both Nicolai's are going to be sold, one has never been ridden.

Look at it from the point of Nicholai. They manufacture in house unlike the big brands so are pretty sure of the quality of the product leaving the factory. Being German engineers, you can be sure that the QC is pretty rigorous and I bet they are convinced that a deformed frame would never slip through.

Some one buys a frame and rides it with no issues for the best part of a year and only then starts making complaints about a misalignment. The fact that he claims not to have ridden it much is not exactly easy to prove (he might even have taken it abroad and had it chucked around by cargo handlers etc). All they know is that is has taken a VERY long time for the customer to complain about something that should have been apparent very quickly if it had been a manufacturing issue.

Replacing for free might have been the best in terms of PR but its one of those commercial decisions. You believe the bike left the factory in good shape so why lose money (that a small company can ill afford to do) to placate one customer who in your view is probably chancing his arm. Nicolai UK is unfortunately just caught in the middle so you cant really blame him.

I guess the brands that subcontract their manufacturing are more inclined to replace stuff as they just pass on the loss to their manufacturers and it costs them nothing.

I fully understand the issues of proving my case and that of the manufacturer, my job consists of dealing with people who lie all day long. I just feel extremely let down by a German QC frame, considered overbuilt, that didn't last as long as a £500 steel HT. Although I would say that just because you are a small firm, that it is more important to consider customer service than a large firm. I also don't agree with the view that a fault must show itself within the first week or so of riding, metal fatigue takes time to fail does it not?

Just for the record this is the first time I have *ever* had cause to complain to a bike manufacturer over such an issue. First time in 22yrs of biking <shakes head>

But you're not claiming that its metal fatigue, you're claiming that either it was out of alignment from new (in which case it took over a year to notice) or that it somehow deformed on its own whilst sat in the garage, something that nobody seemingly has ever seen happen before.

It seems like I've come in for some stick above for, in my opinion, telling it like I see it - if somebody doesn't think I've been gentle enough in doing so, well, sorry, I'm a straight speaking Northerner, welcome to the world of cultural diversity.

Reading things like the customer demanding:

“evidence that clearly shows that the deformation of the strut could realistically be caused by the owner in normal everyday applications. I would expect that this would take the form of information providing answers to the following questions. 1) What measurable load would the strut have to be subjected to in order to cause that deformation? 2) How could that kind of load/stress have to be applied to that strut so as not to leave a visible impact mark?”

Only reinforces my opinion, that in this case, Nicolai UK, and probably Germany could have done nothing to placate this customer short of rolling over on something they are 100% confident is not a warranty issue.

I think that there's possibly some fair argument on the shipping charges back to the factory for inspection, you could argue that it should have been charges back to the UK importer, I suppose that it depends if reasonable shipping charges would have been refunded if it was shown to be a valid warranty claim (?) certainly thats a fairly common warranty condition.

As I said before, inevitably sometimes you have to draw a line somewhere between reasonable, and not reasonable, and as an impartial bystander I think that the offer made by Nicolai, in the circumstances, is reasonable.

Replacing for free might have been the best in terms of PR but its one of those commercial decisions.

it sure is. Nicolai's cost would have been a couple of hundred euros at best. For that they would have had a loyal customer who was likely to extol the virtues of their brand and may well have bought more frames, or at least recommended the brand to others. What do they have now?

I know there are probably scores of people who chance their arm with things on warranty, but if both sides of the story are correct then a simple gesture by Nicolai could have resolved this without a thread bemoaning their warranty process.

edit - re-read the OP and their 130 quid replacement could have been offered as a goodwill gesture at the outset, which imo would have probably gone a long way to avoiding this thread in the first place.

On that principle, a company would have to roll over on [i]every[/i] warranty claim for fear of a gun of bad PR being held against their head.

The impression I've got from this is that they're 100% sure its not a warranty (a decision that in my own experience you think over very carefully before making), and have tried to come to a reasonable compromise. They could have taken a hard line, but have offered to replace the whole rear end for a reduced fee.

At the end of the day the most important thing here is that *I know* that I have not subjected the frame to any horizontal loading while the rear dropouts were braced. That being the only explanation offered by Simon at Nicolai UK. That I am 100% sure of. So if standing by what you know is true, even though you know that you cannot prove this makes you an awkward customer, someone who shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt then thats my fate.

"sorry, I'm a straight speaking Northerner, welcome to the world of cultural diversity" <face palm>

z-11 i agree its a difficult call, but it looks like it took a months worth or wrangling to get that reduced settlement.

the bad PR gun can only be used though if the warranty claim has reasonable grounds. If you came on here for example and complained that a bike hucked off a cliff hadn't been accepted as a warranty you'd get flamed.

Nicolai's cost would have been a couple of hundred euros at best.

And a tacit admission that their manufacturing and QC is not as good as they believe it to be. Which for a German would be very difficult to do and would probably compromise the brand more than this discussion on here.

i dont think that a goodwill gesture such as we're talking about compromises their position? They obviously couldn't find a manufacturing defect, which means it was like that when the customer bought it but after it left the factory, or it was done in his posession. Either way, the frame isn't right and with nobody accepting liability i think a compensated offer is a good outcome. Just because they make the offer isn't an admission of liability, in the same way that if the customer accepts it its not an admission of their liability either.

I can kind of see where you're coming from, but the pr department doesn't deal with warranty!
There's a fair few small bike companies where the customer service is pretty exemplary, companies which value the name of the brand, and go out of their way to protect it from damage- Turner and Ibis spring to mind.
In the same way good retailers as well don't have large pr departments, and still go out of their way to develop and retain their customer base- you're a good example of this yourself!

Surely your experience with warranty returns (i.e. none) might give rise to the thought that with Nicolai's rep for bulletproof frames, the rarity of warranty issues and the brand's quite obvious customer loyalty, that in this case giving the customer the benefit of the doubt might have been worth a ton of goodwill? It's not like the problem is endemic, is it?

The seller asking the customer to deal with the manufacturer is a bit off, imo.

I totally agree vinny. Like I said, they're not perfect. The frames are great and the peoplenive had dealings with at nicolai come across as decent and passionate about what they do. However I totally accept there is room for improvement on the customer relations front. On saying that, I had a customer order a custom fr a while back. when it turned up the customer realized that it was slightly restricted in travel compared to a stock frame(this was down to the custom size and geo requested). As nicolai hadn't informed him this would happen they replaced his frame free of charge with a new afr! I bought the old frame off nicolai and it's new owner loves it!

Goodwill does go a long way. However, without commenting on the op's specific issue, I can see why they'd not want to give a goodwill gesture if they think the customer is taking the p***. This may or may not be how they felt here. I've no idea but no company should feel they have to give a goodwill gesture for fear of recriminations on forums.

Interesting. Bloody expensive frames where the customer can be questioned/questionable?

Wow.

Nice isn't it Hora? I have worked retail before my current job, and that retail was in various bike shops. I have seen people with £300 bikes receive better and swifter customer service than I did.

If I ever find myself with the funds to buy another FS, it will be something from a large brand or maybe something that Silverfish bring into the UK!