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Jeez, I was expecting war & peace, is disappoint... maybe it was the pictures 🤣
i was under the impression that the length wasn’t really that different, just that the relationship of you to the bike was.
however what I really wanted to hear was it was crap and that you’d be selling it to me cheap at the end of the year. Still, I can but hope 😆
good to hear it’s living up to its reputation.
This whole length thing is odd. My Spark is a longer TT than I would have bought 2 years ago, yet the cockpit (Reach?) feels shorter - not a bad thing it fits well.
Nice write up, you should be in Cotic Sales, I'm almost tempted to buy one (I would in 10 years time when I enter solo/pootle mode).
@metalheart. Yes, I’m losing my touch and having to resort to padding with pictures.
@Kryton57 Can I interest you in a Rocket or RocketMax then 🙂
Can I interest you in a Rocket or RocketMax then
Not unless your able to conduct a swift and amenable divorce.
Backs away quickly 🙂
If that was you that I crossed as you were decending towards Suie then you were clearly enjoying it, Nice photos too.
If you were on the orange bike then that’s quite some coincidence, given your comment above about seeing my tyre tracks. Especially as I think you are only the second cyclist I’ve ever met on that trail. You don’t fancy letting us in on next week’s lottery numbers do you 🙂
Yup, that was me. One bright orange Bird Aeris 120 carrying a bright red and blowing me. My most regular trail to Suie and back. Next weeks numbers are . . .
Ah, so that was a Bird. Lovely colour. The orange really stood out and I'm a sucker for an orange bike.
Cheers for the detailed write up. I love that you're so happy with the bike. It's the biggest buzz about doing this job.
Mmmmmm, that's a lovely build. I've been mulling one of these over for a while, but was starting to rule it out for being tooooo long. Your reflections on the feel of the ride have been interesting so far @roverpig, thanks for taking the time to post - i appreciate the detail.
At the mo i'm on an old school 26" hardtail that's actually too small for me, so an old school nu-skool geo bike will feel big.
If its not too silly a question, how much adaptation in body position is needed to weight the front on this sort of geo bike? Is it a case of full weight shift, or more of a hunch/lean over?
I like the concept of a shorter travel bike that's fun and still able to get a bit rowdy without being wallowy. It was a nice surprise to find @ceepers ' thread on potentially doing a demo at my local trail centre this summer 🙂
Cheers for the detailed write up. I love that you’re so happy with the bike. It’s the biggest buzz about doing this job.
Thanks @Cy. I got another ride in tonight and seem to be gelling nicely with the bike already, which is unusual for me. I'm not the sort of person who can jump on a new bike and immediately start setting PRs on descents, which is why I find demos tricky. It takes me time to build up the faith in the bike and trust that it will do what I want. But it looks as though we are going to get along just fine 🙂
If its not too silly a question, how much adaptation in body position is needed to weight the front on this sort of geo bike?
That's the funny thing. I know it's long and slack. I've read the geo chart. But it doesn't feel as though you need to do much. There is a bit more of a shift required to lift the front, but other than that it just seems to put you in the right position, Maybe that's the longer chainstays or something, but it feels very balanced. By contrast, on the Smuggler I did feel as though I needed to shift my weight forwards. If I did so it was amazingly fast, but I felt as though I needed to attack all the time. If I got tentative (and tentative is my strong suit) it wouldn't work. The FlareMax seems to be up for it if you want to push on, but also fine if you don't. I got caught in a squally shower this evening and just wanted to get off the hill safely. The descent was rooty and steep in places but I could just cruise down it and still have fun. But when the sun came out and I did want to attack it was definitely game-on.
Climbing is a real surprise. I was convinced that I'd have to pay a price for the extra security going down. In fact, tonight, I set PRs on both climbs (which I'd done 16 times previously). In fact I'm currently fastest and second fastest this year on those. OK, only 11 people have recorded times this year, but still, not bad for a guy in his 50s.
It seems a silly thing to say after watching those youngsters throw theirs down Snowdon, but it does seem to be a bike that works well for talentless bimblers too. It's fast up, across and down without ever feeling like it will kill you. Of course that's because I've not got close to its limits. But that's the point, you don't have to. All that capability is there to play with but it doesn't suck the life out of the trails like some longer travel bikes, so you can still enjoy the ride without having to be on the edge.
It's got a lovely lively feeling to it as well. I hesitate to talk about steel as I'm sceptical that you (or at least I) can really detect the effect of the frame material given all the other squishy bits on a mountain bike. To be honest, I never felt that my Mk1 Solaris was particularly springy either, but this does have a nice zing to it.
Right, I've rambled on long enough, so I'll shut up now. Of course, I'm still in the honeymoon period, so take it all with a pinch of salt (and don't lose hope @metalheart), but so far it's all good.
That’s more like it (the vintage) rp 🤣
maybe it was coz no pictures...
i found the original Rocket was similar in that it was happy however you wanted, it held back in latency (but it was definitely there when you wanted/needed it).
looking forward to trying out the LS geo on the new SolarisMAX in a couple of weeks (66 deg HA is going to be interesting!). I have high hopes 😜
So what is like to ride ?
After last nights hack around the SDW and stuff , I can see a full suspension in the shed...
Really good write up RP. It's great to hear how you are developing an understanding of the bike etc.
@metalheart yes that LS Solaris sounds very very interesting, even to me who still doesn't mind a steep HA on one of my bikes.
Good write up and lovely build RP. Nice to see an honest review where people don't claim to be gnarduro riders. I would absolutely love one of these in blue with pink highlights and hope purple build. Might even be a possibility if I shift the Whyte..
The SolarisMAX is being released this month and I'm really hopping that it's a HT version of this, sharing the same/similar longshot geometry.
Thanks folks.
So what is like to ride ?
There are more words on the subject up above than anybody could possibly want, but in summary I'd say that, for all the talk of radical this and progressive that, it mostly just feels like a very well sorted short-travel trail bike. Yes, you get that bit of extra confidence on descents that you'd expect from a 29er with a long reach and slack head angle, but for the rest of the time it behaves like you'd expect a 120mm full-suss 29er to. It's lively and engaging enough to be fun on mellower trails and it seems to climb very well. If you just want to get from top to bottom as fast as possible I dare say the Rocket (or RocketMax) is better, but for riding up and down mountains all day long it's great.
Of course, there are lots of great trail bikes out there these days. Is it better than all the rest? I have no idea. I'm not even sure how you'd define best. For example, Alex of this parish had a FlareMax and moved on to a Smuggler. I sold my Smuggler and now ride the FlareMax. We're both having fun, which is all that matters really.
@cokie: my understanding is that the SolarisMAX is LS geo and that details will be uploaded next week sometime.
I have one reserved, can't promise as detailed an analysis as rp though. Maybe I'll lend it him for a real write up....
@normalman: I enjoyed 66.5 on the original rocket, interested to see how 66 will play on a HT. I definitely prefer slacker, this is as slack as I've ever gone though. I'm happy to give it a go, I'm anticipating completely different handling from my b/p set up current one...
@Metalheart Hang on.. how did you get one reserved MH?! I've been waiting months to hear about it and scanning every newsletter from Cy. What am I missing 🙁
The inner circle of trust...
😉
I would absolutely love one of these in blue with pink highlights and hope purple build.
Sounds brilliant. Looking forward to seeing it built up 🙂
@cokie: I've bought 6 frames in the last, oh, 10 years (and helped 3-4 frames/bikes go cotics away). And a 10 year email trail.. 🙂
I guess cy knows a sale when he sees one.
Think of it a bit like a toddlers pester power...
I dont really know that much more, just I've had some dealings with cy and he responds... My original solarismax (and original 26" rocket) was one of first out the door... I've previous.
Ah, makes sense then. I'll just have to wait my turn and hope I get into the first batch.
You could always get some more kudos points and refer me to Cy 😛
Mines nearly built up, i changed my mind on forks after they were ordered and fitted ...and I have gone for 2.8s front/rear. Cant wait
That would be an interesting back to back ride, especially from RP; 29'' vs 650b+
Looks great! I was in a similar position when I ordered my new BFe, not being the most skilled or adventurous rider but still hopeful that the experts had developed a bike that operates in a large enough window to allow me to bimble around on it as well as attempt some poorly executed trail "slaying".
After two days riding back to back initially in the Surrey Hills (chasing a much better rider on a full-sus down some trails that are a bit out of my comfort zone) and then a nice long relaxed ride the following today on a mixture of gravel fire-roads and gentle forest trails it seems that the new geometry really does work everywhere!
I'm sure some of it is new bike enthusiasm helping me along, but it definitely feels 'right'.
it seems that the new geometry really does work everywhere!
That's a very good point. It's tempting to think that long and slack is just for hardcore riders and naturally the marketing material is full of super skilled dudes shredding, but it does seem to work just fine for normal folk too. In fact I'd argue that us talentless idiots need the extra security even more than the dudes and if you can get it without ruining the rest of the ride, why not? But, like you, I'm also very much in the "new bike enthusiasm" phase
Exactly @roverpig i think the stability it provides is arguably more important to someone who is building up skills & confidence. A World Cup rider on a Brompton would probably out-ride me when I'm in one of my less adventurous moods, but it's good to know the bike will do everything i want to and more.
You obviously have to sell the dream, as well as delivering the reality. The same applies to Supercars and 1000CC Sports Bikes as well for example, and most other sporting equipment.
“In fact I’d argue that us talentless idiots need the extra security even more than the dudes and if you can get it without ruining the rest of the ride, why not?“
I’d totally agree with that.
The only caveat for my local riding is the tightness of turns and slippery surfaces, so too much reach equals not enough weight on the front but then balancing that with longer chainstays equals too much wheelbase. But I’ve never ridden anywhere else which is so like a constant slalom! I still like slack and pretty low round here. And give me more normal trails (especially like what you’ve pictured) and Longshot should be awesome.
Yes, they're all a compromise really and the optimum solution is going to depend on what sort of trails you mostly ride. Up here they are generally quite open. They may be rocky, rooty, steep and/or loose, but they are rarely that tight.
@roverpig thanks for replying to my question re weighting the front. Good to know its not a monumentally different way of riding that you have to learn to get the most of the new geo.
This is sounding more and more tempting...
Ten hours in the saddle now, so time to wrap up the "initial thoughts". It's interesting as quite a lot of it is counter-intuitive.
According to the geometry chart and the magazines it's radically long, yet it doesn't feel it. In fact I think it may be the most comfortable I've ever felt on a bike. According to the scales it's not light (at 32lb for my size large) yet it's possibly the most playful bike I've ridden. It's slack, yet it doesn't seem to be any harder to keep it on line when climbing. In fact it climbs very well. With the long chainstays, physics would suggest it must be harder to lift the front up. Initially I'd have a agreed that it took a bit more effort and was perhaps a touch nose-heavy, but now it just feels natural to pop the front over stuff. I suspect I've adapted my position slightly without realising it. To be clear, I'm crap at manuals on any bike, but, now I've got used to it, I actually seem to be able to lift the front more reliably on this than on any other bike I've ridden. I think it comes down to the extra stability. I feel very relaxed on it so I'm looser and more willing to throw my weight around. A better and braver rider may be able to make a shorter bike work better but for cowards like me the key to riding well is often just to stay relaxed and this is definitely the most relaxed I've ever felt descending on a mountain bike.
Of course, I'm still very much in the honeymoon period. The acid test will be how I feel in six months time. Also, it's not all good news. That stability can encourage you to reach stupid speeds. Then you realse that the little drainage ditch is actually a lot bigger than you thought and it's full of rocks and now it is approaching so fast that you've got no choice but to try and hop over it. Well it worked this time, but if you don't hear from me for a while it may be because I'm in traction 🙂
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Reading with interest, but with a future LSS hardtail purchase new mind...
What length stem are you running RP and how much shorter is the stem on the FMax than on one your previous more traditionally angled bikes?
I ran the same 35mm hope stem on my Smuggler and on both fatbikes. I’ve always liked the feel of the steering with a short stem, but maybe it did make the previous bikes a bit short. The 455mm reach on the Dude was considered long at the time though.
At the mo i’m on an old school 26″ hardtail that’s actually too small for me, so an old school nu-skool geo bike will feel big.
It will feel great more than likely, going back to the 26" bike...not so much!
I had a short ride around on my 1997 Ibis Alibi the other night, it's just unspeakably horrible. The riding position whether sitting or standing is grim. It's light, but that's really all it has going for it.
Well it worked this time, but if you don’t hear from me for a while it may be because I’m in traction
That is sort of my worry since I got my Pole. It's so fast, so capable, and the front needs weighted to get the best out of it - I worry that when it goes, it will be spectacularly bad...
Thankfully though, it gets you into bother, but also is very good at riding back out of it with minimal fuss. I love these new bikes!
OK, it took five rides, but I've finally managed to put my finger on what it is that I really like about this bike (and it's no doubt true of other similar bikes too). Basically (and don't ask me how they do this) it manages to be both playful and fun at low speeds and incredibly stable at high speeds. So you can happily potter along a tame trail admiring the view and listening to the birds without feeling that you are over-biked yet if you want to attack a section it's up for that too. It doesn't suck the fun out of tame trails like some longer travel bikes. In fact it is one of the most playful and fun bikes I've ridden. But, unlike some pure XC bikes, it doesn't then get terrifying when the speed picks up.
Funnily enough that doesn't always translate to faster times on the descents. Instead of just hanging on and trying to get to the bottom as soon as possible I'm finding that I feel so relaxed that I start playing around, looking for interesting lines and often forgetting that it's a Strava segment altogether 🙂
Had mine a week now, last night s ride, forks feel great, its reassuringly good in lots of ways. its long, slack, climbs really well and feels like more than 120mm of travel out back. Treated it to some new Saint pedals as well.
Really pleased with it
Should not have started reading this! - love the Mercury finish @snakebite and the write up @roverpig. I now really want a Mercury Flaremax - despite a relatively recent FS (Whyte T129RS). N+1 time.....
N+1 time….
Always a good plan 🙂
By the way, I set a PR on a 17 minute climb that I'd done 53 times before the other night. Some of those other attempts were on hardtails with much lighter (racing ralph) tyres. OK, there is no doubt a bit of new bike enthusiasm going on, but it's hard to stay enthusiastic for 17 minutes of climbing and some of those other rides would have been when those bikes were new too.Basically, what I'm trying to say is it climbs really well
I also set a PR on a two minute fast loose decent, but that's more understandable 🙂
How tall are you flaremax owners? I'm horribly between sizes at 5'10.5" with long arms. The reach on the large is pretty similar to a large s150, which feels fine, but the ett is huge!
trying to choose between this, a large s150 or a m/l Bird am9. It's doing my head in! I'd rather have a shorter travel bike for most of my riding but prefer the look of the numbers on the whyte and bird...
I'm 6 foot. Maybe a touch under (haven't measured my height for years). The large feels spot on to me. I've pushed the seat forward a bit which I guess reduces the ett, but seated climbing feels fine.
@ianpv I'm about the same size / proportions as you and had the same dilemma over sizing compared to my current bikes - discussed with Cotic and went with the large and 35mm stem, and bought without a test ride.
It's a great fit and positioning wise feels about the same as my large Whyte M109c and Vertex XC bikes, with the longer stems.
I've got the 27.5+ wheels on mine which has been a fun experiment and about to try a 29er wheelset for longer days.
I'm 5' 10, demoed both the medium and large of the flare max because I was unsure on sizing. Large was much, much better for me. Descending on the med was fine but climbing felt really hard work and cramped. Switched to the large and suddenly much easier!
Yes, the ett looks long on paper, but I suspect that’s part of the reason why it seems to climb so well. Plenty of room to breathe and it pulls you forwards a bit, which helps to keep it on line I think. Always worth a test if you’re not sure though.
How are you finding it after a few months? I can't afford a new bike right now but having spent the past week researching bikes I can't afford, this is looking like one of the best choices.