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In sport, results in open competition makes very good evidence.
Can't be bothered reading all the guff before, just thought I'd type the following.
What a load of old shite. For mere mortals, stop eating the pies and go out on yer bike more.
That is all.
Milkman - you didn't answer my question?
Milkman - MemberIn sport, results in open competition makes very good evidence.
No it does not. Its impossible to attribute the wins to any particular action on behalf of the athlete.
Do these people know you are using their names to make your claims?
Milkman = colostrum suppliment company representitive? - Oh and as said before This is his [b]FIRST[/b] post on STW 🙄
Milkman - Member
In sport, results in open competition makes very good evidence.
In that case, I can claim all the pro athletes who [b]don't[/b] use colostrum as being proof that it doesn't offer any measurable advantage, can't I...
So, to go through your list
Chris Hopkinson, first British rider to complete the solo Race Across America
Unless that race is attracting the very top athletes in the world, it proves nothing and particularly since Chris clearly got beaten by other athletes who I can assume from your not claiming them didn't use the product.
Sharon Gayter and Mimi Anderson, record breaking ultramarathon runners
Again, it's just not a recognised sport so affected by the vagaries of who actually chooses to do it much more so than well established sports and on its own proves nothing.
Gustav Erik Larsson, Olympic Silver, men's time trial
Only silver though.
Elena Baltacha, UK number one women's tennis
Only British no 1 and therefore being beaten by other players
Peter Norfolk, Paralympic gold, men's tennis
Can't say I'm particularly familiar with Paralympic tennis but one athlete using the product proves nothing.
Maurice Burton Etape de Tour gold at age 51
Big deal - As I understand it, that's not particularly unusual though clearly a decent performance.
Of course they know. Elena Batacha and Peter Norfolk are quoted in the latest Ace magazine.
Germain Burton (before national title) is on video
and Maurice Burton
Phil Greening (England and Wasps) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L16Nm5woLdk
world record holder Cecilia Morrison (pre record attempts video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN4rqcyEgEc
I know who he is!
[i]Would you like it pasteurised, cos pasteurised is best?
Ernie I'd be 'appy if it came up to my chest....[/i]
The fastest milkman in the west!
Milkman AKA John Rolf - I think you are now doing your product an injustice now - I would bow out gracefully as you won't win this one !!
Milkman - If you had said
"research is still in its early stages but looks promising, all these athletes think the product is good and endorse it" You might have got away with this. But quoting research selectively and making claims not substantiated by the research merely make you look foolish
FWIW, milkman, there's a rule (unwritten IIRC) that for anyone representing a company that you should be open about it and add that company's name as your profile link so that it's obvious. Please do so now, just to be open and honest which I'm sure you want to be.
This stuff sounds great!
Is it safe to use in conjunction with a Power Balance band?
Only if the hologram is aligned correctly with the colostro molecules 😉
If you don't like the science and you don't like the videos and you don't like the results, there really isn't anything more I can add.
This sounds like Kaesae bearings thread from a while ago?
Milkman 0- the research that you have given us does not show any significant benefits and does not even test some of your claims.
[i]is that the trees a'rustling or the hinges of the gate ?
... it's ernie's bovine colostrum, so get training on it mate[/i]
I've got 3 stone & 20 years to lose, and some talent to gain, before I'd even consider using any performance aid beyond water & jelly babies but I still don't see why you have to be jangling the keys to the pitchfork cupboard. (he may not have stated his name but I don't think his username's well chosen if he's trying to hide an allegiance when cropping up on this thread)
Can we provide evidence that epo/clenbuterol/hgh/testosterone/thg genuinely improve performance (same academic rigour you're expecting of the colostrum stuff, please) or should we just ridicule contador & pals for believing all [i]that [/i]shite ?
Are you going to tell us who you represent or not?
Your videos and so on are all great and FWIW, it's even possible that your product works to some extent but none of it is properly proven. As I said, on the basis of 'proof' you're using I can claim that it doesn't work since it clearly doesn't provide an advantage that stops many of them being beaten.
Can we provide evidence that epo/clenbuterol/hgh/testosterone/thg genuinely improve performance
Actually, I'll bet you can though admittedly finding research specific to sport will be difficult since they're banned but I'm sure you'll find plenty for example that shows the effect of EPO on blood's composition so that in combination with other research which shows how increased red blood cell count/concentration improves athletic performance would make the case perfectly well.
I think he has now dissapeared 😉
Crikey. That's all.
I'm with the angry mob, I particularly like:
But all the above also all wore shoes; how do you know it's not the shoes that make the difference?
Just another bluffer then..What a nob.
Opinions offered up as fact etc..He'll do well round here! 😉
hey guys, I didn't start this thread. I just sent a bag of colostrum for somebody at Singletrack to try and to come to their own conclusion. There are no claims that colostrum will make you unbeatable...just keep you healthier when you train to competitive levels. Colostrum sells by the recommendation by coaches and sports nutritionists, not by the marketing power of multinational corporations.
Actually, I'll bet you can though admittedly finding research specific to sport will be difficult since they're banned but I'm sure you'll find plenty for example that shows the effect of EPO on blood's composition so that in combination with other research which shows how increased red blood cell count/concentration improves athletic performance would make the case perfectly well.
Clubber, I can't accept the above extrapolations and assumptions (also, as well as wearing shoes, some of those tested athletes probably had needles shoved into them so effects could be down to acupuncture unless you have a control group 😉 ) - I want direct clinical trial EVIDENCE that injecting epo and all those other things into trained athletes improves their performance. Failing that, shall we dissolve wada ?
[i] Milkman - Member
If you don't like the science and you don't like the videos and you don't like the results, there really isn't anything more I can add. [/i]
as a scientist marketing bs dressed up as science really pi$$es me off
if you want milkman i can put a video up of cancer cells growing like mad when i introduce some of the factors in your product to them, would that be useful for marketing?
if you want milkman i can put a video up of cancer cells growing like mad when i introduce some of the factors in your product to them, would that be useful for marketing
Do it - I for one (being someone who trains quite seriously for endurance style stuff & always looking for a product that might help) rely on good honest evidence rather than clever marketing spiel.
I was told to try taking colostrum after my immune system was all but destroyed due to an illness. It was a several years ago now and at the time I was in Royal Marines and I would but my fitness and training on a par with most professional athletes. In fact I would go as far as saying most marines are fitter and train harder than a lot of professional athletes.
I have to be honest and say as far as I could tell it did nothing for me. I saw no difference at all in my fitness, recovery or performance while on it so stopped taking it and nothing was effected. Granted I was young and taking loads of meds and having to eat liquid only diets for a while. Not exactly scientific, but I wont be taking again.
Milkman - people can make their own mind up about the product you sell but you do yourself and your product a disservice by not being open about who you are in your profile.
wwaswas
I thought your keen detectives had outed me already. That's why I chose milkman as an easy clue. If the sceptical correspondents on this forum would like to disclose their identities I will put them in touch with the researchers conducting the current studies at UK universities. One study on exercise induced gut permeability and its prevention has been accepted for peer review by the American Journal of Physiology. Call me with your contact details. 0800 24 25 123 milkman aka John Rolfs
It may be that you have on this thread but you may chose to post on others and it might be best to be open in your profile too?
it's your choice, of course, but it would seem a better approach and you're clearly not too worried about your 'real' id being associated with this thread/stw.
Milkman - your the one trying to defend your product so as an unwritten rule you should disclose your associtation with the product - your name and telephone number was not neccessary just your affiliation. If you do your homework I am sure You can find out who I am 🙂 But I doubt anyone is bothered? I can contact the researchers myself If I was that bothered but I like to read it in a peer reviewed journal.
"One study on exercise induced gut permeability and its prevention has been accepted for peer review by the American Journal of Physiology."
So its been ACCEPTED for REVIEW- so its has just been submitted? - I have reviewed for peer reviewed journals and there is a big gap between submitting and accepting no?
I hope I am not speaking out of turn but some of us on STW do have a biomedial and/or research background and most of us have common sense to read between the lines - don't treat us as idiots just be honest!
Gonadotrophin! That's hilarious - why hasn't this been pointed out? 😆
Within TWO months I was back on my road bike with (almost) full function of my leg... from COMPLETELY chopping a muscle in half!
However we do not know how long you would have taken to recover without Colostrum and a positive mental atitude and rehab?
I am not disagreeing with you that it doesn't work but pushing it without good groundings is not on! It should be advertised as potentially beneficial not Snake oil no?
Oh bugger, went to add to my post and managed to delete the bloody thing!
Yep, I can't say colostrum helped, but if I did something silly again in the future... I would be buying some more colostrum!
Yep, I can't say that colostrum had any effect, but I was amazed by the combination of it and good rehab, so much so, I would buy it again if I ever managed to do something so silly in the future!
Years back I had a back injury that the doctor told me meant I'd not likely row again which was pretty tough news as I was pretty serious about the sport to say the least. Two weeks later I was back in the boat (though admittedly I was careful and with hindsight it would have been sensible to leave it a bit longer). I didn't use colostrum. Prognosis from doctors are typically just an average - some people defy the odds and recover faster.
Once again, my point is that the product might work but that's all we know - there just doesn't seem to be proof that it does and the AIS results seem pretty damning for me - milkman, how do you respond to them? If they tried the product I'm pretty confident that if they thought it worked they'd still be using it.
A reminder of what they said:
• Colostrum is a protein-rich substance secreted in breast milk in the first few days after a mother has given birth. Colostrum is rich in immunoglobulins and insulin-like growth factors (IGFs).
• The gut of a baby has "leaky" junctions that allow it to absorb proteins, like immunoglobulins to develop its own immune system. By contrast, most experts believe that adults do not have “leaky” junctions and hence are unable to absorb these proteins.
• Commercial colostrum supplements are typically produced from bovine (cow) sources. These supplements are intended for chronic use and are claimed to improve exercise performance and recovery, and possibly to have beneficial effects on body composition (increasing lean muscle tissue).
• To date, a small number of studies have been conducted and published in peer-reviewed literature. Although these studies are well-controlled and have involved long-term supplementation with several commercially available colostrum supplements, [b]they have been unable to show consistent or universal improvement of athletic performance. However, one study has shown that a short-lived benefit may occur immediately after periods of intensified training due to a reduction in residual fatigue[/b] (Shing et al. 2006).
• There is little evidence of an enhanced outcome of training on changes in body mass or body composition.
• The possibility of a reduced risk of illness with colostrum supplementation still requires careful long-term research.
• A mechanism by which colostrum supplementation may benefit athletes remains speculative. While a few studies indicate that colostrum supplementation increases concentrations of serum IGF-1 and salivary immunoglobulins, other studies have failed to demonstrate these findings (Mero et al. 2002).
• In summary, further research is required to demonstrate that colostrum supplementation benefits performance and to identify the athlete group most likely to benefit from supplementation.Situations for use in Sport
• Due to the lack of current evidence for use in sport, colostrum should be used with discretion.
• It may be beneficial to improve performance within a few days of completing a high intensity training block but this benefit is diminished after 1 week of rest.
Anyway, I have a PhD to write... so I will let you all argue about Colostrum some more.
But to conclude, I like it!
I am in support of Milkman here,Purely Ancedotal evidence, but a year ago I managed a full laceration of the vastus medialis muscle (google/wikipedia it) from a 203mm disk brake rotor which needed an air ambulance and surgery to stitch the muscle back together.
I have the luxury of working with some excellent scientists (at Aberystwyth University - no hiding here!) and I consumed colostrum everyday for around a month whilst my physio worked her magic.
Within TWO months I was back on my road bike with (almost) full function of my leg... from COMPLETELY chopping a muscle in half!
I can't say for sure that the colostrum helped, it may have been the physio, maybe I am a just quick healer... but whatever it was, I was opperational somewhat sooner than the 'at least six months' that the surgon suggested!
Jon
There you go LabMonkey 🙂
Cheers Foxyrider!
It's a lot like those people that say they had an accident when wearing a helmet and the helmet saved their lives... Unless you have one without, how do you prove that?
🙂
gives you cancer though
Insulin like growthfactor I is on the ingredients list...
[i]Oncology. 2002;63(4):317-32.
The role of the IGF system in cancer: from basic to clinical studies and clinical applications.
Moschos SJ, Mantzoros CS.
Division of Endocrinology, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Harvard Medical School, Boston, Mass 02215, USA.
Abstract
Insulin-like growth factors (IGFs) are important mediators of growth, development, and survival, are synthesized by almost any tissue in the body, and their action is modulated by a complex network of molecules, including binding proteins, proteases and receptors, which all comprise the IGF system. Evidence from in vitro and animal studies suggests that overexpression of IGFs by cancer cells and/or the nearby stroma as well as the type IGF-I receptor by the cancer cells may play a significant role in establishing a transformed phenotype in an increasing number of malignancies. More specifically, IGFs may promote cell cycle progression and inhibition of apoptosis either by directly associating with other growth factors or indirectly by interacting with other molecular systems which have an established role in carcinogenesis and cancer promotion, such as the steroid hormones and integrins. In addition, a growing number of epidemiologic studies suggest that increased serum levels of IGFs and/or altered levels of their binding proteins are associated with increased risk for developing several malignancies. These data indicate that IGF dysregulation should now be considered as an important independent factor for cancer risk, and a potential target for novel antineoplastic therapies and/or preventative strategies in high-risk groups.[/i]
It's a lot like those people that say they had an accident when wearing a helmet and the helmet saved their lives... Unless you have one without, how do you prove that?
True but it at least seems a sensible option to stop you gouging big chunks of flesh out ya skull 😉
It's a lot like those people that say they had an accident when wearing a helmet and the helmet saved their lives... Unless you have one without, how do you prove that?
Very true!
But as a research scientist, albeit in a slightly different field (cardio-respiratory physilogy, or oxygen uptake kinetics to be more precise) I woud be convinced enough by the theoretical background to take a chance on Colostrum... 'maybe' the evidence is not strong enough to date to say fo sure whether it works...
But I would take the chance on it, rather than not, if I have another severe accident. I would not however buy it long term as the cost is too high as a preventative suppliment.
My two cents, and look, I am avoiding my work again!
Cheers, Jon