On my way to work this afternoon, about 2pm, so not dark, not raining and perfect visibility. I was cruising along at about 25mph along costorphine high street when a grey bmw 1 series pulls out from a side street.
I pulled on the anchors to stop, ended up doing quite a high endo and my hear ended up what seemed about a foot from the B pillar of the car.
What made the event worse was the driver never stopped but just gave me a wee wave.
I was pretty pissed off at this wee wave and sorely tempted to chase after him (he was going the opposite direction to me).
however at work when i was running through the event again, if i was to have reacted a split second later, at the top of the arc would I have been in line to either go head first into either the window or the B pillar both of which would have serious consequences.
however I was pondering, if i were not to have breaked at all (or reduced breaking keeping back wheel on ground) then I would have definately hit him but i would have gone over the car instead of through it.
I never got a note of the car reg place so no chance of reporting his dangerous driving to the police.
What annoyed me the most about this was the drivers au fait response, obviously not realising or not caring about the potential severity of the incident and just giving a wee wave.
as it was I was obvously ok and came away unscathed, but it could have been very differnt outcome.
What is the forum's opinion on increasing safety in this incident, would I have been better to have breaked less and gone over the car and being ultimately ok, or risk stoppinhg in time but if failed to do, going head first into a window.
and yes i was wearing a helmet.
your opinions please....
I think that sums up BMW drivers!! (just kidding)
You'd have probably been better off not doing 25mph down a high street. Anyway, having been both over a car and through a car I can say that you're better off going over.
Nearly got wasted by a BMW last week - overtook our chaingang on a blind corner downhill (we were doing about 30mph), something was coming the other way and he pulled back in missing the rider at the front by inches.
My opinion? There are a lot of ignorant sh1tty drivers out there. Nothing you or I can do about it, except be careful.
Surely the brand of car is irrelevant. Non?
2 possible things I have done in that sort of situation - as you stoppie / endo get your head as close as possible to a window of the car with a nice bloodcurdling scream. Try to give the driver as much of a scare as he gave you
Release the brakes at the last moment and make sure you hit the car ( gently)twist the bars so one end of the bars hits the car. He wouldn't have been blase with a nice handlebar end dent in his car or a nice scrape down the side.
You wouldn't have had time to make a decision. On with the brakes and try to minimise the chance of hitting, or reduce the speed you hit.
Why do you think going over the top of the car and probably landing on unforgiving tarmac from 5 feet in the air wouldn't have hurt?
I'm not daft enough to think it wouldnt hurt, but Id rather slide / fly over car and land on tarmac than head first into a moving vehicles window.
granted it's a case of rock and hard place...
Nothing to do with BMW drivers.
Just drivers.
Accidents happen. Always be prepared to stop-yep I hate it when someone says that and were you riding within safe limits that you could stop?
Personally I think you did well to stop! I would have gone straight into the car and sued the driver for damage and injuries...
If you chased the driver-then what? have a go at them?
The driver should have been looking though.
Talking to some of the folks I ride with and we all agreed that once you get over 15mph on a bike (on the road), most motorists can't handle a bike travelling that fast and completely stuff up judging distances for pulling out etc.
OK flame proof jacket on!
Why is it when I read these threads is nearly ALWAYS a BMW driver? We have three of them and I ride bikes so does that make me the same?
BMW drivers take a lot of flak some of which is justified and some of which could be directed at anyone driving a car.
I am not defending the guy but everybody makes mistakes and to be fair he probably was not expecting you to be doing 25mph on a bike in a built up area. He is probably asking a similar question somewhere else on the web about your chances of stopping if somebody had stepped of the pavement.
Just be thankful that you stopped and there wasn't a nasty accident. Many car drivers under estimate the speed a bicycle can travel at.
Kev
Cars bring out the absolute worst in people. Drivers are too casual, inattentive and over confident of both their own and their car's ability. I really dislike riding on the road.
Firstly, this type of thing is all to common. There is very little you can do if there was no accident (unfortunately) so move on.
You can go over it in your mind but when it comes to a real life situation you don't think you just react so you can't prepare.
Think about braking distances, I find them much bigger on a bike than in a car. So adjust your speed according to the circumstance. Even if you are in the right you will still be in hopsital if you're in a collision.
My personal approach that has seen me avoid several accidents of this nature since I was properly hit like this a few years ago.
Look at the eyes, if they see/don't see you you can tell.
Stay wide, it gives you more options if they pull out.
Be very observant, you can predict what other people are going to do. Obvious things are people approaching junctions too fast or traffic making people impatient.]
Be seen - lights and high vis
Be lucky, it's more use than being good.
Am I the only person that throws his weight over the back wheel when doing an emergency stop? You stop loads quicker. I have tried to make it instinctive after many OTBs but I suspect there will be more.
May I make it clear that I have nothing against BMW drivers, it was a mere observation about the car.
As for driving at that speed, I was traveling at the same speed if not a little slower than the 4wheeled traffic at the time, and I was cycling about 2m out from the kerb at the inner edge of a bus way so no danger to pedestrians. (the high street has four lanes and is a busy road)
I am generally greatfull that I managed to stop and ultimately ok, but just aware that it could of ended very diferently.
I do however like the idea of the screaming endo...
Devs - it would never occur to me there was any other way - and Jonb I am sure I can stop on my bike as quickly as a car - probably quicker
Sympathise completely with your situation and glad you are ok. As said above 25mph on a bike along corstorphine high st is a fair old lick on a bike and driver could have cocked up his judgement. Being a cyclist and motorcyclist (and a BMW driver) I am always extremely cautious when travelling at high relative speed and I see a car sitting at a side st since there is a high chance of them pulling out.
I have also hit (been hit by) a car and I would say avoid it at all costs if you fall on the road chances are you will tumble a ways and that dissipates some energy if you go into a car it does not move much at all and it piggin hurts and can break bones/ skulls etc.
only once i ever had a serious accident and broke a bone, it was a bmw driver who stopped and gave me a lift home.
He is probably asking a similar question somewhere else on the web about your chances of stopping if somebody had stepped of the pavement.
He's probably not though, is he?
Like a lot of car drivers, it's more likely he drives in built up areas with no thought to his own chances of stopping if someone stepped off the pavement.
if the speed limit is 30 then that's what a lot of drivers aim for, regardless of what's going on around them.
I blame the isolation from the outside world that has become a selling point for more and more cars these days.
Isn't being nearly killed like being nearly pregnant?
I am sure I can stop on my bike as quickly as a car - probably quicker
You're presumably talking about your tandem, TJ? Since there's no possible way you can stop a standard solo as fast as a car. I thought we'd covered that one (or something very similar recently).
The tandem stops quicker for sure. I believe I can on a solo as well although I have never measured it. You seem sure that you can't but I see no reason why not.
Edit: I'll do a test tomorrow and report back
Think about what actually limits your maximum braking on a bicycle (which isn't a problem for a car).
The limit for braking on a bicycle is about 0.67g. Coincidentally that's exactly the same deceleration rate as is used in the HC stopping distance figures - the trouble being that we all know those figures are very pessimistic for modern cars (that and normal road cars will decelerate faster at low speeds, and those figures are for stopping from high speeds).
Here's some data for cars http://www.batesville.k12.in.us/physics/PhyNet/Mechanics/Kinematics/BrakingDistData.html
The worst car in that table manages 0.72g
IIRC aracer you should know a fair bit about this stuff. Why only 0.67 G? Motorcycles get over a G IIRC and when tested often stop faster than cars. 2 inch sticky tyre, load the front tyre then get the weight back.
I'll do some ( very unscientific) tests tomorrow and report back
My first point answers those questions (it's also something that applies a lot less to motorbikes, though for racing ones with sticky tyres it would still appear to be the limiting factor). You just need to answer that one!
CoG? However you can move the CoG back and down.
Surely its the contact patch on the tyres being the limiting factor (assuming knobblies here)? I managed to lock up the front wheel on the road once bedding in new disc pads.
I quite regularly ride on Costorphine High Street and 20-25mph isn't an unreasonable speed to be pedalling at along there - you're certainly moving with the traffic at that speed and would normally be safe enough doing so.
I really don't think a roadbike can do an emergency stop as quickly as a car can, even in a straight line on dry tarmac. You just skid no matter what you do with your body weight.
I had a book in the 90s which recommended trying to lay the bike down on its side by skidding the back wheel rather than t-boning a car that pulled out in front of you like that. I'm not sure I much like that idea either, but the author reckoned you would then slow rapidly due to bike and body friction on the road and would have less chance of breaking yourself - although you'd get badly scuffed. 😯
The other thing to do of course is to flick out to the right rather than braking in a straight line. If he's pulled out, there probably isn't a lorry hurtling up on your right shoulder...
car's will stop quicker every time,
Even in the MG midget the braking is enough to require the seatbelt (i.e. you couldnt hold yourself in the seat with legs/arms). And that has shocking brakes by modern standards, the front just about locks when you stomp on the pedal from 30 and in an emergency stop you usualy have time to double de-clutch and short shift into 1st!
Braking on a bike takes longer to get going as well, maybe the reaction time is quicker (fingers already on brakes), but then the process of pushing your weight back untill your arse is on the wheel takes another few 1/10ths of a second.
Personally I dont think that you'd be any better off by letting off the brakes and hitting the car - when endo-ing your head doesnt really change in height a vast amount. Having hit a car at full tilt I can say if I'd hit it side on I'd have a broken neck by now but i hit the boot and went right over. Didn't really hurt much other than a burst nose. I would do my very best to stop but if there was no way of stopping I'd make sure I did a decent amount of damage to make the point to the driver (and their insurance company).
A BMW driver once cured my warts with his his healing touch.
tinas - not convinced its that clear a difference. On an MTB with discs on the road I can stop /very/ quickly - certainly faster than going from accel to brake and getting the car to a halt. On my road bike it's the other way round, the brakes are horrific and the tyres really dont grip much unless it's bone dry and smooth.
Similar thing happened to me with an Aygo driver the other night, frightened the life out of me.
But I didn't post about it!
[chuckles at poppa] 🙂
CoG? However you can move the CoG back and down.
Not significantly - not unless you have ape like arms. The saddle also tends to get in the way.
Here's my previous post on a similar subject
http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/disc-brakes-on-roadbikes-lance-tweets/page/2#post-590404
I see your point aracer but I am not sure you are 100% right. Still neither of us have any facts to argue with.
for example a 2 inch tyre like the speedkings I have puts significantly more rubber on the road than a road tyre.
By shifting your weight down and back you move the CoG a fair way back but yess - going over the bars will remain the limiting factor but my impression is still that I can stop the disc braked MTB with sticky tyres faster than a normal car.
I'll report back when I have done some measuring - or do you know of any actual measurements of this?
I've been taken out by a BMW driver. She was rather pretty, and bought me drinks and a meal. Shame I'm married.
for example a 2 inch tyre like the speedkings I have puts significantly more rubber on the road than a road tyre.
As I've said, completely irrelevant for maximal braking, as a 20mm road tyre has enough grip not to skid.
The crucial point is how much you can shift your CoG (more correctly CoM, since momentum doesn't care about gravity). I'm not sure we're going to agree on this one!
Sorry don't know of any measurements - I'd imagine it's not a very interesting thing to study, given you can get the answer simply from considering the geometry (if you're prepared to accept that pitch over is the limiting factor - which is the conclusion I think you'd reach pretty early on!)
I accept pitch over is the limiting factor - I just think its not as limiting as you think. your .67G is presumably a calculation from cosines and stuff. I think you can move the CoM ( if you must) further back and down than you think and its not a static thing its dynamic. From a simple calculation you such as I think you have used you shouldn't be able to slow a unicycle at all as the CoM is above the contact patch
had a bmw driver run a red light this morning on me and about 4 other cyclists all taking off from the same cycle box at the traffic lights
the fat f*ck laughed at us then proceeded to run the red on the pedestrian crossing 5 metres along, nearly taking out a woman
I think braking is slightly more complex than size of contact patch. I can quite easily lock my front wheel on my MTB on the road without pitching over, ESPECIALLY if I put my weight back.
Now I ride motorbikes and have had many close encounters of the cage driver kind.
Yesterday infact I was nearly killed by a lambo racing me off the lights and then cutting infront of me and 4 others on a roundabout infront of a police camera van. which caught it on tape bu because nothing happened.. wasnt bothered. If I hadnt gambled the amber to beat the Lambo and my friends not thought me the fool and done the same instead of sitting on the line they'd of been splattered by the kid in the lambo.
On other occasions I've both collided and avoided cars.
Upon colliding i suffer pain, insurance excess, eventual compensation and a disrupted life possibly even the threat of a court case for speeding etc as the perceived speed of a motorcycle is greater when the cage driver glances last minute at the small, often loud object.
Upon avoiding I have to fix my own bike (if i binned it) suffer the pain and the financial short term loss (no ongoing raised insurance expense)
So from that point of view they're about equal so I'd just go for whichever you think will hurt less.
In your case I'd probably just check whatever's down that side road on a regular basis for the car. Report the car driver driving off to the police and hope to get their reg at some future date.
remeber dodgeball rules prevail
Dive Duck Dodge!
Simple
25mph on corstorpine seems reasonable to me on a quiet day, cars or motorbikes would have been doing more, yer speed was fine IMHO.
You did well to stop and you did well to avoid the red mist club of chasng them down and mouthing off.
There are more tales of BMW drivers being responsible for near death experiences or bad driving, I never see the same about say Ford Focus of Golf drivers and it makes me ponder ... I think we all have impressions of what a BMW represents, to the owners it seems to mean, look at us, havent we done well. To non owners it seems to say, theres a to55er who thinks hes better than us. I am sure there are exceptions to this but as a generalisation it seems to hold some water.
.. wish I'd done psychology for my degree. lol.
