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He has now edited it out, strange;it was fine yesterday.
He has now edited it out, strange;it was fine yesterday
For whatever reason, this is a good move. If I was fighting to improve MTB access in Wales or England and saw that video I'd be throwing my hands up in despair.
If I was fighting to improve MTB access in Wales or England and saw that video I’d be throwing my hands up in despair.
That would just be a reactionary response in lieu of any actual stats to back up that perception. So not really something worth putting any stock in to.
Anyone got the mtb/walker collision stats for scotland handy btw?
Because perceptions don't matter.
I'd say stats trump them.... Or are you suggesting we pander to every greetin faced tit on the hill?
I also dunno if it escaped most peoples attention, but the guys involved in the "incident" weren't that bothered...
That would just be a reactionary response in lieu of any actual stats to back up that perception.
I'd say it's more about the risk that it becomes low-hanging fruit for "mountain biker narrowly avoids crashing into group of hillwalkers" media nonsense.
Anyone got the mtb/walker collision stats for scotland handy btw?
Do you think the sort of people who do things like trying to get bikes banned from places do so on the basis of recorded stats, or on the basis of anecdote and hyperbole?
I also dunno if it escaped most peoples attention, but the guys involved in the “incident” weren’t that bothered…
But as noted before, that's purely luck. Other people would be bothered. I probably would be, especially if I were with my kids. If you've ever pissed someone off, did you just say "well, the last guy I did that to didn't seem pissed off, so you've no right to be"?
I watch quite a lot of mountain biking videos on YouTube, there is a bit of a clickbait competition going on with people like Sam Pilgrim riding through urban areas in very borderline fashion. I wonder if that's why the near miss/crash was included in this video to spice it up a bit.
Bez
Do you think the sort of people who do things like trying to get bikes banned from places do so on the basis of recorded stats, or on the basis of anecdote and hyperbole?
So stats don't matter? Anyone got them btw?
Or we just going to continue this conversation based on 1 incident?
I'd like to see if there is an actual issue before I got my nickers all flustered about this..
Who said stats don’t matter? The point is that these conversations, outside of activity-specific forums, involve mostly anecdote. And while stats are useful, (a) there are no stats for how many people are pissed off by nearly being hit by mountain bikers, and (b) why bother defending something that clearly just risks creating more unhelpful anecdotes—either by people who don’t ride bikes over-reacting to this one, or by people who do ride bikes thinking it’s ok to ride like this as long as you don’t actually cause an injury and then going and doing this to people who are bothered by it.
Well, I'll let youse get yourself in a tizzy about anecdotes... Not a game I'm interesting in playing, come back to me when you've got something tangible to talk about...
Not a fan of Ben Jones attitude.He WAS on my short list for next years MTB trip ( to be honest he was at the top) and there would have been 3 of us going so this has cost him at least £4000.Probably go with one of Spanish trips instead.
are you suggesting we pander to every greetin faced tit on the hill?
I haven't seen anyone suggesting that, don't see why you're being so trolly about it.
The problem with greetin faced tits, is that community councils are rammed with greetin faced tits all over the place. I just think giving them easy opportunities to greet about us biking is hardly helpful to MTB as a whole.
Me trolling? I'm not the one getting on some poor guys back for a nothing incident! 😆
seosamh77
It far from the worst I have seen but this is a professional guide who is using scots access laws to ride but not meeting his responsibilities under them
I have forgotten. are you scots based?
Scots law on access is uniquie in the world. Right to roam is a qualifed right. Unlike in other places where yo have an absolute right to ride in some places and no right in others, here we have a qualified right to ride everywhere but that qualification is behaving responsibly
What I hope will come out of this is that the chap in question reflects on his actions and rides more responsibly in future.
😆
Dear All,
Let me clarify for those who are not "a fan" of my attitude as presented here in my frustrated writing. I'm pleased to note no-one here who's actually met me or has been guided by me has a bad word to say - the opposite in fact.
I 100% believe that walkers should be shown respect on the trail and I certainly don't advocate any behaviour that causes conflict with or endangers other trail users. Anyone who's ridden with me will, I hope, clarify this. So this argument is simply about whether or not I inadvertently breached my own "rules" by riding too quickly.
At the time I felt my speed was appropriate.
This feeling isn't from looking at a video filmed on a gorpo which are notorious for messing with perspective of speed/gradient etc - but my perspective from actually riding the trail.
I always ride at a speed where I am able to stop within sight lines and on this trial on the blindest corner of the entire trail - with walkers in the most unlucky place you could imagine - I was able to stop within my sight line. The fact that I endo'ed may have looked uncontrolled... but please reserve your judgement on my control of front wheel traction until you've ridden with me.
Seriously - what other criteria do you use to judge how fast it's acceptable to ride? I'm not being facitous here.
I tell all my clients that this is what they should aim for - to be able to stop within your sight line on any trail... I will not be changing this advice unless someone has a better memorable "rule"? If I thought I was outside of this parameter I would be apologising unreservedly for riding like a dick and endangering other trail users - but clearly - I was not.
I get it - startling walkers is not cool. I shouldn't have to state that I don't aim to frighten or panic walkers and do my utmost to treat other trail users with respect and not endanger them in any way. The easiest way to prevent conflict is to leave your bike at home. But I personally like to keep riding and do my best to strike a balance whereby I both ride at a speed that is enjoyable for my clients and maintain the ability to stop if something or someone unexpected is around the corner. If we can have a good chat and bit of banter with other trail users (in Scotland 95% of the time you can) this is a great bonus.
That's my attitude - and my clients appreciate it and come back year after year. Most importantly we've never had a collision with a walker or anyone else in well over a million (non hyperbolic) vertical metres of guided descending.
'I get it – startling walkers is not cool. I shouldn’t have to state that I don’t aim to frighten or panic walkers and do my utmost to treat other trail users with respect and not endanger them in any way.'
But as a paid guide on shared trails that is what you did in this instance, why can't you just reflect on that and ease up a touch more next time? No harm done and we all live and learn sort of thing.
But as a paid guide on shared trails that is what you did in this instance, why can’t you just reflect on that and ease up a touch more next time? No harm done and we all live and learn sort of thing.
Thats all I ask. Reflect upon it and ease off a bit. Please.
"Seriously – what other criteria do you use to judge how fast it’s acceptable to ride?"
Its quite simple, slow enough that you don't startle some other trail user, whether they are capable or forgiveness or not. You may be confident that you can stop in time (and it appears that you are), but they have no idea about how many million miles of guiding you've done in the past....
" If your recreation is one which is likely
to cause a hazard (for example cycling fast or driving a cart or
carriage with horses or dogs) you should take particular care
not to cause risk to others. If you are on shared-use routes you
must show care and consideration for others, deferring to
those who are most vulnerable."
"On narrow routes, cycling may
cause problems for other people, such as walkers and horse riders. If this
occurs, dismount and walk until the path becomes suitable again. Do not
endanger walkers and horse riders: give other users advance warning of
your presence and give way to them on a narrow path."
Scottish Outdoor Access Code, 2005
Some of it may have to do with the fact ( on his Facebook page if anyone wants to check it out) That he probably doesn't care about how much he annoys people as he is no longer running trips in Scotland and so has had his use and money out it.As for no one who has met him having a bad word to say I have just spoken to someone who HAS been on one of his trips and " OK in small doses but a bit full of himself" was the nicest thing they could think of!
Character assassination by over-reacting anonymous keyboard warriors on a public internet forum makes this the most Singletrackworld forum thread of all time.
I'm calling bs on your statement
Not so long Ago you was booking a holiday with him .now after this your not .now you've somehow carried out a background check and found he's an arse .
Absolutely bs
Guy nearly made a mistake big deal
Tj if your so passionate can you turn your frustrations to the car drivers of this world.once we've sorted out the thousands of unnecessary rd deaths each year I give you permission to get back to completely going over the top .
Tj if your bloods boiling go check out the pillock pilgrim or embns recent urban ride it's a lot worse than what Ben nearly did .
I honestly think this has been totally blown out of proportion
Brakes have come so far from the shimano 300lx of yore (complete with five-finger plastic levers)
I remember those! Special Norfolk edition, right?
If you actually read what I wrote no way is it blown out of proportion at all noris my blood boiling - I am just a bit saddened by his attitude. I even commended him for stopping to apologise
It far from the worst I have seen but this is a professional guide who is using scots access laws to ride but not meeting his responsibilities under them
Thats all I ask. Reflect upon it and ease off a bit. Please.
Others have been more scathing and it is clear that this is not responsible riding by the access code we should all abide by.
Big-Bud.
Yes we were (not was) seriously considering booking a trip with him and you are correct that we will now not be doing so. Somehow carried out a background check ! Well I looked on his public Facebook page and there is a post dated 21st of February stating that after this year he will no longer be running trips in Scotland. I also rang an acquaintance whom I rarely see but I know goes on a lot of MTB trips all over the world and asked if they had any experience of him.
Seriously – what other criteria do you use to judge how fast it’s acceptable to ride? I’m not being facitous here.
Serious question, when you're trained as a mountain bike guide, which you presumably are, what do they tell you? I can't believe it's just a simple, 'make sure you don't crash into anyone'.
My take would be that you should ride at a speed where you're not going to endanger or startle other trail users based on a conservative perception of what might be alarming for them.
I'm not suggesting mountain bikers should pootle about like OAPs on a shopping trip, just that a mountain biker's perception of what's a reasonable speed may differ from a walker's perception of the same speed in a similar way to GoPro footage maybe not being an accurate representation of actual speed.
Of course it's all subjective and I'm not having a pop at you, but I'd say there's more to it than just being able to stop before you hit someone. Genuinely curious, when you train as a guide, what are you told?
Reflect and all will be well! 😆
Incidentally, how does one prove they have reflected sufficiently? Are the baying mob expecting a grovelling apology? 😆
One must sacrifice their first born at the high priestess of tandem morality.
Come on, Joe. 🤣
thunderwingdoomslayer (Dan) - the reasons for stopping running trips in Scotland are non of your business and nothing to do with having had my "use" or money out of guiding in Scotland.
I was referring specifically to bad things to say about my guiding and attitude to other trail users. But I'm glad you feel the need to have a swipe at me personally behind your anonymous username on an internet forum.
Anyway - bigger fish to fry.
Videoed self flagellation is the minimum standard accepted by the STW select committee. It marks the beginning of a lifelong learning exercise.
Rule 1 applies......
Go fast on proper bike trails with little use and open corners? Hell yes.
Treating open access routes with lots of foot traffic the same way? Just no.
I'm firmly of the 'rambling with a bike' school, unless I'm on a dedicated bike trail, when I can go for it without the fear of mowing someone down.
Are the people who treat common access trails like racetracks the same people who drive like ****s on minor roads, with the same sense of entitlement?
I would imagine so.
MTB was much more fun when fewer entitled arseholes with no idea how to behave in the countryside were involved. The sooner they piss off back to their golf clubs, the better.
And Strava. That can go and **** itself, big time.
Not everything is a race.
No one gives a shit how fast you are.
And anyone who rides the most popular walking routes on a weekend is a bell end.
Ladybower on a Sunday?
Just **** off.
No imagination, lazy thinking and a complete disregard for others.
That's why a lot of people hate us. They have a point.
There's thousands of miles of empty, cheeky trails out there.
Don't be a ****. Go and find them.
Has the YouTube vid been edited, can't see anything at 8.15 now??
Yup Poop. It would probably be a good idea for the mods to shut this thread/ kill it with fire as nobody can actually see the incident now. That removes any chance of folk coming across this thread being able to make up their own minds about it and he does have a business to run.
Well as I’m waiting for access to a job I’ll say I’ve ridden his Mont Blanc Enduro trip and it was fantastic and I have lots to compare it to from the last 20 years. Incredibly capable guide and just non stop top riding for a week and great hotels. I’m not his mate only a punter he probably doesn’t remember as you meet lots of them and am looking to book one of his Italian trips for my 50th next year if I think my legs are willing. I’ve just pulled one nail out the cross but my right hands free if you need somewhere to put it.
That removes any chance of folk coming across this thread being able to make up their own minds about it
Still has the woman at 3:05 saying "Alright. Enjoy" if people still need something to get het up about
The meeting with walkers at 8:15 must have been edited out, unless they are invisible people.
Rusty Spanner
Subscriber
Rule 1 applies……Go fast on proper bike trails with little use and open corners? Hell yes.
Treating open access routes with lots of foot traffic the same way? Just no.
I’m firmly of the ‘rambling with a bike’ school, unless I’m on a dedicated bike trail, when I can go for it without the fear of mowing someone down.
Are the people who treat common access trails like racetracks the same people who drive like * on minor roads, with the same sense of entitlement?
I would imagine so.MTB was much more fun when fewer entitled arseholes with no idea how to behave in the countryside were involved. The sooner they piss off back to their golf clubs, the better.
And Strava. That can go and * itself, big time.
Not everything is a race.No one gives a shit how fast you are.
And anyone who rides the most popular walking routes on a weekend is a bell end.
Ladybower on a Sunday?
Just * off.No imagination, lazy thinking and a complete disregard for others.
That’s why a lot of people hate us. They have a point.
There’s thousands of miles of empty, cheeky trails out there.
Don’t be a *. Go and find them.
Guessing someone shat in your kettle this monrning! 😆
Mountain biking has changed a lot since the late 80s and early 90s when many people first got into the sport and bought their first XC hardtails. At that time you shouldered the bike up a mountain then picked a route carefully down while being shaken to bits and stopped at the bottom to tighten your threaded steerer, which had worked loose with the battering. If you met walkers you'd stop for some banter and they would congratulate you on having got up there in the first place then stand by to watch in the hope you would crash for their amusement.
Nowadays with mountain bikes resembling motorbikes with no engine you can blast over stuff that would have caused a disaster in the 80s and 90s. Speeds have increased massively and accidents are much more bone-crushing as a consequence. The speeds in the video above would be fine on a dedicated downhill trail but on a public footpath they look downright idiotic. If I'd been one of those walkers I would certainly have had a go at the cyclists for selfish disregard for other people's safety. I don't see any difference between a reckless cyclist who injures a pedestrian and a reckless driver who injures a cyclist and that's where cyclists' misplaced sense of smug entitlement does the sport no favours.
So... Are we ever going to see these injury stats, or are we still on anecdotal evidence?
What about walkers with their pointy poles, if they stumble they could have a childs eye out with that you know. And let's not get onto those fell runners, hooligans to a man, tearing up the trails at breakneck pace! 😆
but on a public footpath
it isn't a public footpath
Are we ever going to see these injury stats, or are we still on anecdotal evidence?
Isn't the discussion here about an anecdote? I didn't spot where "Was this irresponsible?" became "How many people in Scotland get injured by mountain bikers hitting them?"
As before, you won't find any stats on how many people have an unpleasant experience as a result of being narrowly missed. Which I suspect is why you keep asking for them.
So… Are we ever going to see these injury stats, or are we still on anecdotal evidence?
If you are so desperate to see these injury stats try looking for them yourself .
You would find stats about injuries though.... The reason I asked is if there are stats showing injuries from mountain bikers against hillwalkers, then the anecdotal evidence, and therefore the fear you all seem to be suggesting exists in the hills, is well founded. If they are none to very little accidents, well then, it's just hysteria...
I suspect, rocks and ankles are the hill walkers biggest worry though...
Perhaps we should ban rocks and pave all the hills? 😆
Ramsey Neil
If you are so desperate to see these injury stats try looking for them yourself .
I'm not the one claiming menace, I'm asking people to back up their claims with more than anecdotal evidence. I don't think that is an unreasonable request.