UPDATE: Reviews section refreshed, redesigned, searchable: Go take a look
you can still easily obtain a new, un-assisted HT or FS bike at just about every imaginable pricepoint but sadly you´ll have to use the internets to research and shop about.
It does make me wonder why the lazy but trendy shop assistant didn't approach the challenge from that angle. 'No, we don't have any affordable non-E MTBs on the shop floor because there's no local demand, but yes, we can order one in for you. Here's what we can get from pretty much any major bike manufacturer.'
But, the OP has made two posts ever I think, claimed to have left MTBing a long time ago but then seemed to be an expert in bike sales data over the last few years in their second post. I wonder if we are conversing with a real person? 😀
My 9/11 year old nephews love jumping and pumptracks.
Thats not becaue its all they want to do - its just the most accessible thing to do.
When their (non-mtbing) parents get the time to drive them to trail centre or riding spots, they love that too. I think its quite tricky for non-bikng parents to get their kids to places to do something that isn't jumping/pump tracks.
There seems to have been a loss of local places to do these things too, maybe increased house building, more people. A lot of new build estates don't seem to have anything like that nearby.
But, the OP has made two posts ever I think, claimed to have left MTBing a long time ago but then seemed to be an expert in bike sales data over the last few years in their second post. I wonder if we are conversing with a real person?
I was beginning to wonder that, plus clearly bit of a grudge towards roadie snobs and drop bars 🙄
Sometimes we forget how, historically, mtbs popularised cycling. Back in the 70s I bought a bike to get fit for enduros ( motor bike). I hated it . I wasn’t a ‘cyclist’ so couldn’t cope with a bottom gear of 42-19. A few years later mtbs appeared and I was hooked. A lot of other people not really interested in offroad bought them because of low gears and upright position. These days those people buy ebikes which leaves only the committed buying mtbs
MTB is not dead, but it is changing.
OP has been out of it and thus remembers a fixed point of time but has not noticed it change.
Sudden review of MTB after a good few years off surprises OP.
Emtb is mtb. Just like DH is mtb and XC is mtb. Its another discipline. 70% of the bikes I see on the trail are Emtb now, because emtb riding is just more fun all round.
Just to clarify (as this thread seems to have triggered some); I don't hold the same opinions as the bored young minimum wage lad in the bike shop. It does seem, anecdotally at least, that participation in (unpowered) MTBing is down on what it was 10, 20+ years ago. Perhaps many of those 'classic' MTB'ers are now/have been replaced by 'gravel bikers'. As I remember it, the vast majority of MTB'ers I encountered were 30+ even then, with fewer and fewer youngsters getting into it. I saw plenty of middle aged men spending lots of money to (try and) look good in the car park. Costs rose disproportionately with other things, to the level I became unwilling to spend further. Bike 'tech' became increasingly silly for no real benefits; Shimano inventing a new crank BCD every five minutes, rising number of rear cogs, less and less compatibility between brands and even within each brand across groupsets. And then wheel sizes changed. By this time, I was a bit bored of MTBing anyway; the old days of just going for a ride somewhere were gone, and people wanted to go to 'bike parks'. After trekking halfway across the country with some friends, staying in a shit overpriced B+B, to stand around shivering at the top of a climb waiting for the less fit amongst us, half of us agreed that the money was better spent travelling abroad. Better weather, nicer accommodation, better food, etc. MTBing seemed to have become so monetised, with ironically less freedom.
Having now got quite a bit fitter than my nadir of a couple of years ago, I just fancied getting out there again, jumping on a bike and just enjoying the ride. Hence enquiring about potential bikes. Things have definitely changed a bit since my youth, when MTBs were the best selling bikes after kids' bikes, and a 'mountain bike' was even considered a fashion accessory!
Having looked at a couple of eMTBs they have more in common with a motorcycle than a bike they have wide tyres and are huge compared with older bikes.
i think you would find them quite hard work to ride uphill without the motor.
Its a completely different type of cycling
Having looked at a couple of eMTBs they have more in common with a motorcycle than a bike they have wide tyres and are huge compared with older bikes.
i think you would find them quite hard work to ride uphill without the motor.
Its a completely different type of cycling
Never ridden a motorcycle then? Or even seen one up close?
I have risen plenty of motorcycles.
I also used to teach people to ride them
That should have been I have ridden lots of motorcycles on and off road.
i also used to teach people to ride.
May be closer to a Suron might have been better
Having looked at a couple of eMTBs they have more in common with a motorcycle than a bike they have wide tyres and are huge compared with older bikes.
Modern MTB's are huge compared to old MTB's, nowt to do with whether it has a motor or not. Take a Levo for example - it's the same as a Stumpy Evo, just heavier, fatter downtube and a lump where the motor is. The dimensions of the bike are the same and you'd probably run the same size tyres, maybe a different casing that's all
He's right you know, pedalling my 25kg Levo uphill is hardwork without the motor on, who'd have thought it. Entirely doable though, as long as you start your ride this way. It's a completely different story if I try after using the motor. Brains are funny things aren't they.
It does seem, anecdotally at least, that participation in (unpowered) MTBing is down on what it was 10, 20+ years ago. Perhaps many of those 'classic' MTB'ers are now/have been replaced by 'gravel bikers'
Unpowered MTB aka XC is down, for sure. Gravel has replaced MTB for some of those riders (even if the riding is very similar, just simple XC), gravel is also roadies going off-road, it's a middle-ground overlap.
Maybe not down as much as it seems though - a lot of it is about perception and example availability. There's still a lot of us XCers doing what we always did - longer XC rides that take in the best trails and descents, passing through trail hot-spots rather than lapping them. You don't see us that often because we don't drive to destination spots and don't ride one 'spot'. If you go to a trail centre you often see 90% e-bikes, if you ride XC you don't see many people at all and you see mainly unpowered bikes (gravel and MTB) until you get to the trail spots.
Range anxiety is bad for freedom.. ; )
Emtb is mtb. Just like DH is mtb and XC is mtb. Its another discipline. 70% of the bikes I see on the trail are Emtb now, because emtb riding is just more fun all round.
E-bikes have made the sport easier to access as they have dramatically reduced the fitness barrier to entry. When I started you had to work at it to get fit and able to ride the climbs etc. Now you just selected the motor level and off you go. I was riding yesterday puffing up a hill in granny gear getting passed by lots of overweight people in about 7th gear motor whirring away. They would never have been able to get to where we were in the past
“Having looked at a couple of eMTBs they have more in common with a motorcycle than a bike they have wide tyres and are huge compared with older bikes.”
My hardtail is as big (slightly bigger actually) than my ebike and most of the components are the same or similar. And it goes uphill fine, even without gears (until traction or my legs fail). It’s huge compared to the MTBs of my youth (almost 4 decades ago) but it’s a damn sight better for riding off-road.
Andrew Major wrote a great blog on Meat Engines about how modern hardtails are the truly accessible thing in MTBing because for not much money you can get something that works really well, with enough gears that many can ride it up typical climbs - and if it gets too hard you push.
I remain hopeful that these bikes will continue to be popular. Ebikes might make it easier but realistically if you have enough fitness to ride an ebike downhill then you have enough fitness to ride a geared hardtail uphill, it just takes longer. The cost of entry for e-biking is just terrifying, especially for younger people.
E-bikes have made the sport easier to access as they have dramatically reduced the fitness barrier to entry. When I started you had to work at it to get fit and able to ride the climbs etc. Now you just selected the motor level and off you go. I was riding yesterday puffing up a hill in granny gear getting passed by lots of overweight people in about 7th gear motor whirring away. They would never have been able to get to where we were in the past
Yeah, you no longer have to be or get fit, just buy a new range extender - see FGF - and you're good to go for as long as you want. I genuinely find it hard to give a bent banana about 'barriers to entry', people talk about this stuff like it's an unmitigated good that anyone with a wad of cash can buy an e-mtb and blast about like Tom Pidcock on steroids, but with a beer gut.
Why are we so fixated on making everything easier and more accessible? It's 'the town had to be destroyed so it could be saved' territory. You take a bunch of what makes mountain biking what it is and remove it and hey, you now have new, accessible, sanitised mountain biking for the minimum effort generation. But that's okay, because the bike industry can sell lot of more expensive e-mtbs and people can kid themselves that they're getting fit.
Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything particularly against e-mtbs or the people who ride them, but a bit of honesty over what they really are would be nice.
A quick look online when I got home suggests far less MTB models in bike companies' line ups; obviously loads of e-bikes now.
Sounds like utter BS to me. A quick look on a few websites doesn't match that description.
Specialized have several categories, one of which is "Mountain".
Norco have several categories, including "Enduro", "Trail", "All Mountain" and "Cross Country".
Canyon also have several categories, including "Mountain bikes". I gave up bothering after that.
Yes there are several other categories as the market has diversified, but there are still plenty of models on offer, in all categories. Your LBS has to turn a profit so is most likely to stock what is most likely to sell to the punters who walk in the door, and if that's eebs, so be it.
At the end of the day, many kids (including my own) see the differences between categories of bike but don't get hung up on them. My eldest has a DH bike and an enduro bike and loves both (and would also love to have a dirt jump bike).
Why are we so fixated on making everything easier and more accessible?
Without wandering off piste too far it’s because it’s no longer seen as fair if everyone can’t do it. It seen as discrimination against some group / special interest or other if everyone can’t do it.
Without wandering off piste too far it’s because it’s no longer seen as fair if everyone can’t do it. It seen as discrimination against some group / special interest or other if everyone can’t do it
Not everyone can do it though.
Took my not really MTB mate on an ebike ride a couple of years ago. He could keep up and pedal with me everywhere, as we were on ebikes. I took him down Bakewell Golf course when it was a bit muddy. Got to the bottom, waited 10 mins and was heading back up when he appeared, walking his bike down, chuntering that I was trying to kill him 😂
E-bikes have made the sport easier to access as they have dramatically reduced the fitness barrier to entry. When I started you had to work at it to get fit and able to ride the climbs etc. Now you just selected the motor level and off you go. I was riding yesterday puffing up a hill in granny gear getting passed by lots of overweight people in about 7th gear motor whirring away. They would never have been able to get to where we were in the past
I don't particularly give two hoots about who or who doesn't by ride an emtb it doesn't especially affect me - but the above sounds like some worthy 'gate keeper' crap.
What is your point other than being supercillious to those you perceive as less worthy?
You take a bunch of what makes mountain biking what it is and remove it and hey, you now have new, accessible, sanitised mountain biking for the minimum effort generation.
"I still feel that variable gears are only for people over forty-five. Isn't it better to triumph by the strength of your muscles than by the artifice of a derailleur? We are getting soft… As for me, give me a fixed gear!"
Gears, trail centres, suspension, e-mtbs .. the same general point from people who think things should only be the way they see/do it.
MTB can be hard if you want it to be, but let's not get all superior about it - we do it because we enjoy it. How or why we enjoy it, no-one really cares.
Gears, trail centres, suspension, e-mtbs .. the same general point from people who think things should only be the way they see/do it.
MTB can be hard if you want it to be, but let's not get all superior about it - we do it because we enjoy it. How or why we enjoy it, no-one really cares.
I don't necessarily think that, I'm more bemused by the idea that once you've introduced a motor, it's the same activity. Presumably if you no longer have to pedal, that's not 'mountain biking' any more? Or is it? Why should be people be excluded because they can't be arsed to turn a pedal and prefer to use a throttle mechanism instead. And where's the point where e-bike motors become so powerful that the pedal is basically a throttle operated by pedal pressure?
I also put e-bike noise into the same category as drones when it comes to interfering with other people's quiet enjoyment of the outdoors. I find the sound of multiple e-bike motors intrusive. It's not to do with being 'superior' or snotty, it's just the noise.
None of this is because I think I'm 'superior' or 'gate-keeping', I just think people and particularly people in the bike industry and media are so desperate to rationalise selling what are basically becoming crap e-motorbikes with pedals, that they've stopped thinking very hard about what they're doing. And as soon as you question it, out comes all the patronising stuff about excluding people from a sport because they basically can't do it.
the same general point
Nope.
I’m a fan of e-bikes, but adding motor assist is not analogous with adding gears, or suspension, or a dropper post or whatever. Not even close.
Once you start trying to add everything that makes a modern mtb actually good at mtbing, especially at a lower price point, you make it actively worse for the light duty casual user.
This. You really don’t want suspension on a commute/city bike. And definitely not 120mm plus (whereas sub 100mm was just about tolerable). Likewise wide tyres. You could stick a 1.5 slick when rims were 17mm internal. Not so great on a 30mm rim. Dropper post superfluous too.
Not even close
It makes it easier which is the bit some seem to be against. You're still pedalling and for some riders that's the main thing if it evens out a group or lets them enjoy it more.
The assist is an aid, like gears or suspension. A bigger aid for sure and more of a fundamental change to what a bike is, but the topic is 'Is MTB dead' as in the definition of the activity/thing more than the physical product (sort of related but there's choice in the market).
I'm more bemused by the idea that once you've introduced a motor, it's the same activity.
What 'activity' though? DH is so different to XCO and dirt jumps. Am I 'doing MTB' if I don't do any jumps?
My take on it is, it's the same very broad general activity if the activity is not defined by heart rate etc (it's not, imo). If it's defined by the feeling of riding trails it can be - the part of MTB most of us enjoy most is when we're not pedalling much and not all of us have the effort/reward match that you and I do.
I have days when I'd like to just lap some DHs, not enough to own an e-MTB but I get it, they're fun. Just not £5k+ worth imo.
Why should be people be excluded because they can't be arsed to turn a pedal and prefer to use a throttle mechanism instead. And where's the point where e-bike motors become so powerful that the pedal is basically a throttle operated by pedal pressure?
There is an evolution line where low-power superlight E-MX is a thing, I think, because the core of 'general MTB' is about riding a trail. A lot of MTB culture is about the ride not the pedalling imo, it's not roadie culture. So we could be heading toward a blurred edge of DH/enduro/MX Lite and tbh I don't care because as long as rule #1 applies, it makes no odds to my own riding. MTB isn't centred around me, it's something I felt at the centre of once but things change, I change.
I just think people and particularly people in the bike industry and media are so desperate to rationalise selling what are basically becoming crap e-motorbikes with pedals, that they've stopped thinking very hard about what they're doing
I'm in the industry, I have no stake in e-MTBs though. I think a lot about where things are going bc it's my job to, and I've never been wholly positive about what e-MTBs are from a product pov - complexity, poor reliability and cost plus the risk to what a brand even is/does (another topic). I'm critical of wireless gears and carbon fibre for the same reasons but people want to buy that stuff and companies make it for them. It's all just consumerism and the reason a significant % of MTBers demand this stuff is the culture in MTB is not just about the simplicity of riding bikes in the woods or hills. That's what it is for me and you, but we're not at the centre of what MTB 'is' anymore.
I'd blame Red Bull and Hardlines and all that extreme stuff that makes trad non-competitive XC look dull, but I remember what got me excited about MTB in the 80s (getting out there, but then fluro/neon and Tomac and fast descents/thrills etc) and realise it was all the same then, culturally. And I can and do still buy simple rigid steel bikes with mechanical gears and pedal them up along and back down local hills. My own riding is not threatened by predictable changes in MTB that are no different to the changes we see in most of life. Simple bikes are great for getting away from all that shit : )
Good topic/discussion.. I see in running (that I think culturally is in parallel with many aspects of cycling) there are hints of rejecting data and tech. Things like this are cyclic. MTB is alive and it'll continue to change. It may change for the simpler and next we'll have posts about the annoyingly earnest zen MTBers and "their ****g purist bikes" ..
I can and do still buy simple rigid steel bikes with mechanical gears and pedal them up along and back down local hills. My own riding is not threatened by predictable changes in MTB that are no different to the changes we see in most of life. Simple bikes are great for getting away from all that shit : )
Good topic/discussion.. I see in running (that I think culturally is in parallel with many aspects of cycling) there are hints of rejecting data and tech. Things like this are cyclic. MTB is alive and it'll continue to change. It may change for the simpler and next we'll have posts about the annoyingly earnest zen MTBers and "their ****g purist bikes" ..
Ah, single-speeders you mean... For perspective, I figure that people who climb Everest using supplemental oxygen, ascend fixed ropes, have all their kit carried by Sherpas and rely on professional guides to make all the important mountaineering decisions and then claim to be 'mountaineers' are similarly misguided. To me, the essence of mountaineering is making your own judgement calls, carrying your own kit and not 'oxygen doping'.
You could argue that all these things make climbing accessible to people who wouldn't otherwise be able to do it, but I'd argue that in the process, most of the things that make mountaineering what it is, have basically been burned on the altar of commercial expeditions and profit. I'd argue those people are high altitude tourists rather than mountaineers.
In a sense none of this matters, except that the nature of climbing has a tendency to make you think existentially about what you're doing.
And where's the point where e-bike motors become so powerful that the pedal is basically a throttle operated by pedal pressure?
Isn’t that how they already work. The harder you pedal the more assist you get. The only thing stopping it all getting out of hand is legislation around speed limiters which imho should be impossible to hack as a gos chip can tell the system where it is and let the software ensure compliance
single-speeders you mean
They can be annoying eh : ) I meant anyone rejecting tech to 'get back to basics' and embrace the challenge that lower tech brings. I don't think we need to go full hair shirt but whatever works for you if you think along those lines. Likewise, if you want those features that's fine. I'd be arrogant to assume I know what that means for your riding, you are not me.
Climbing and O2, MTBs and motors, even distance racing and smartphones .. all fair comparisons. Someone telling me their ethics apply to my activity can do one in the same way that I won't apply my ethics to someone else. Create and manage a race and you can set the rules but activities are broader. I could bore most people on long distance racing ethics but .. it's just my opinion isn't it, I can apply it to me and explain why, but that's it. We all do things for different reasons and ethics or what's right gets into that spiral/piety thing if we're not careful. We can decide the meaning of an activity for ourselves and that's really what bikes are for - freedom.
Motor assist isn't "high tech"... it's pretty basic tech really. Again, I like ebikes... but pretending that adding a motor to drive you forward is the same as any other new tech that has come to mountain biking is disingenuous.
We all do things for different reasons and ethics or what's right gets into that spiral/piety thing if we're not careful. We can decide the meaning of an activity for ourselves and that's really what bikes are for - freedom.
Totally, people can do what they want, within limits - societal, legal, decency etc - but my take is that motors, petrol or electric, are out of place in the outdoors because they impact on other people's quiet enjoyment of the place. Similar to drones.
but the above sounds like some worthy 'gate keeper' crap.
What is your point
Two things come to my mind. Thing one, A while back I rode out to what used to be a remote, not quite inaccessible trail-head up a reasonably long ascent that doesn't really go anywhere as part of a route - so the pedal out at the bottom of the descent is a bit of a PITA. You had to want to make an effort to get there and consequently it used to be a very nice single-track ribbon through the heather; a pain to get to, but very rewarding. E-bikes have entirely changed the character of it, over a few winters it's become about foot wider, and quite a bit straighter. That's a direct result of setting aside the fitness barrier.
Thing two, because of where I tend to ride (some "honey pot" places) I've come across a couple of times now, big 'ole lads on e-bikes who've run out of battery, miles from the nearest metaled road, and are already off and walking, and are looking at a good 2-3 often more hours of walking to get back to where they started. They often have no real knowledge of the area, and are following a route they've downloaded, one group had run out of food and water. back in the day when you had to be reasonably fit to tackle some routes, this was less likely.
people should be able to access the outdoors, and if they want to do that on e-bikes then they should be able to, they also ought to be able to judge for themselves the situation they may find themselves in, and take care of their environment.
Getting back to the original post - No mountain biking is most definitely not dead.
In London I can understand why there are so many ebikes. If you go mountain biking you need to plan an entire day and want to get the most done = ebike on the car.
If you live closer to trails then it is a different choice. I have both an lightweight ebike (I hate the weight of a full power 25kg model) and also a normal non e-bike. Both 150/160mm. Which one I take depends on the time I have, who I am riding with and the terrain. If it is local trails for an lunchtime power hour it will be an ordinary bike for the cardio, for something with a bit more elevation it will be the e-bike to get that extra lap. For a few hours it maybe either depending on who I am with and the motivation.
Much prefer the non-ebike for the down-hill and jumps and 'flickability' but sometimes more laps = more fun and that's when the ebike wins!
Its good to have a choice and both have their place!
I've come across a couple of times now, big 'ole lads on e-bikes who've run out of battery, miles from the nearest metaled road, and are already off and walking, and are looking at a good 2-3 often more hours of walking to get back to where they started. They often have no real knowledge of the area, and are following a route they've downloaded, one group had run out of food and water. back in the day when you had to be reasonably fit to tackle some routes, this was less likely.
In the past I'm sure people grabbed routes out of magazines and set off on routes they were unprepared for, and found out halfway round that 20 miles in the lakes was not the same as 20 miles in hampshire, and they had used all their tubes due to the nasty sharp rocks going through their 2.1 ardents, brake pads were down to metal on the rim and their best karrimor fleece was soaked and freezing.
a flat ebike unless you are a literal potato still functions as a bike on the flat and down, even if you cant ride it up steep hills?
Motor assist isn't "high tech"... it's pretty basic tech really. Again, I like ebikes... but pretending that adding a motor to drive you forward is the same as any other new tech that has come to mountain biking is disingenuous.
I've not said it is the same as other changes - the point was whatever changes come along there's always some gatekeeper types that say it's not proper. I could see a motor assist making uphill easier like suspension makes downhills easier (vs the basic bikes of MTB's roots) and there is no 'proper', only our personal opinions. And I don't think I described it as 'high tech' either but it's high tech as far as normal bike parts or developments go.
But I feel like I'm being reactive/argumentative now. I don't disagree about it being a major change to what an MTB is, and maybe that's why they're so popular.
