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Hi all; to cut a long (and very boring) story short; I used to be into MTBing many years ago, but work, life, injuries and whatnot got in the way to the extent I just stopped doing it. Living in London, it's hard to actually get out to any hills, let alone mountains. But I used to be a lot more motivated. I suppose the amount effort needed to get out for rides got a bit too much; the payback wasn't so worth it. Friends I used to ride with succumbed similarly, plus kids etc, so that was pretty much that. MTBs sat forlornly in the cellar until my wife made me get rid of them (for a fraction of what I'd spent, but hey). I still carried on riding my commuter bike around town, as this is actually one of the most effective forms of transport in this great metropolis.
Fast forward to a couple of moneys ago, when a routine set of medical tests revealed I perhaps wasn't quite as healthy as I'd like to be (nothing major; slightly pre-diabetic, teeny bit overweight, early warning signs of old age catching up with me). This motivated me to get healthier, so I've upped my exercise, more swimming, walking and some weights etc, adjusted my diet to include a lot less sugar (this bit is hard, everything contains sugar!), started using the bike more for those trips I'd take the Tube for etc. Then a trip to a local bike shop to get something mundane like inner tubes had me idly browsing the new bikes. And I noticed a paucity of standard unpowered MTBs. Plenty of everything else, particularly e-bikes. on enquiring why there weren't any even basic MTBs, the bored young Get Z'er said 'oh, mountain biking is pretty much dead, it's only a few old men doing it now'. Whilst lacking the awareness to realise I am of said demographic myself. 🙄
But is this true? A quick look online when I got home suggests far less MTB models in bike companies' line ups; obviously loads of e-bikes now. But if I want a standard basic hardtail, or even a reasonable full suss bike, the options seem a lot more limited, particularly at the more 'reasonable' end of the market. Not a great deal of choice. Used to be 7 or 8 levels of bike in multiple categories; XC HT, XC FS, 'Freeride' FS, DH, 'Jump', 4X etc.
I'd quite like a simple, perhaps front suspension bike for just getting doubt and on less than perfect tracks etc. Probably similar to my bikes ca. late '90s to early 2000s. Apparently these are now called 'gravel' bikes and come with stupid drop handlebars. With flat MTB bars, I'd be interested. So is there anything that fits the bill?
Is Mountain Biking really 'dead'?
Some old men I went riding with last summer
(might be a repeat, cos even if Mountain biking isn't dead, sometimes this site is)
Yup, 100% dead.
Nope, it's just not what's selling in big numbers right now, I guess gravel bikes have diluted the market so much that XC hardtails are perhaps becoming niche race weapons (in the same way that you won't see many out-and-out CX bikes in the shops any more!).
However I've now discovered the limitations of my gravel bike so am actively planning to upgrade or just replace my XC hardtail with another XC hardtail, and am really excited about some of the missions I have planned for it! All the big brands do something suitable and it appears now that you can get a lot for your money in hardtail-land.
Buying a new bike and riding the bike you have are very different things. When it comes to bike shops, gravel bike and e-bikes have been the new shiny off road toys in demand for a while now. I’d guess even more so in London. It’ll change. Both hardtails and full sus bikes that don’t have heavy motors and batteries are great things, just waiting for a wave of new people to discover them one day soon.
It’s definitely more subdivided than I remember - we still have MTBs in the middle but some rides that used to be XC rides have turned into gravel rides and various MTB rides are just ebikes and you can’t keep up if you don’t have one.
And bikes have got a lot better so there don’t need to be as many subcategories. And geometry etc has settled down so there’s less reason to buy a new bike. A 29er hardtail is a great do many things bike!
If you asked in a shop in London, then yes, their answer probably was right as that is not where mountain bikes are being sold and used. Out in the real world there are lots of us mountain biking from our doorsteps we just don't shout about it on social media as that's what gravel is for 🤣
Plenty of everything else, particularly e-bikes. on enquiring why there weren't any even basic MTBs, the bored young Get Z'er said 'oh, mountain biking is pretty much dead, it's only a few old men doing it now'. Whilst lacking the awareness to realise I am of said demographic myself.
Find a better shop? Maybe somewhere closer to where people really do go MTBing?
The few shops I have been into recently have a tiny selection of non e-bikes shoved into the corner.
suspect non e-bike is dying but e-bike (and prices) are thriving. Peddling uphill over the past few weeks in this heat I kind of get it.
I'm based in London, albeit right on the edge with Surrey, and it's hard to find many others who are into MTB. Gravel bikes are a lot more popular, and I had one before but found it wasn't the right tool for the South Downs Way and Surrey Hills trails which is what I really wanted to ride.
When I headed up to Sheffield recently I felt like a lot more people were "checking out" my MTB which is not something I've ever noticed in London so I agree it's a regional thing.
Whilst your experience is similar to mine when you look in shops I think there is a huge difference between what is being pushed / sold and what is being used - and I am down south.
When I am out and about in summer on the mtb (yes pedalling, no engine, other than me and coffee / cake) I will see a lot of ebikers and I am all good with it. I have mates with ebikes and they have made me fitter as I can keep up with them for as long as I / they ride (as long as I train, work at it etcetera)
However, come winter a very different story, first sign of rain, and mud, then the visible riders shift to almost all mtb (pedalling, no enqine) and the odd ebike.
On the plus side ebikes have kept bike companies and shops in business and have got a wide range of people onto bikes that they might not of, I hope.
Pedalling an mtb now feels niche, I have low expectation in shops locally, and I am ok with that and intend to keep doing so, till I can no longer and that puts a smile on my face.
James
Based on the magazine content recently then it could be
Mountain biking jumped the shark years ago, around the time people started spending hundreds of pounds on plastic coatings to stop their frames getting scratched, and buying e-bikes they could push uphill in walk mode. Doesn't stop me riding something loosely approximating a mountain bike, though.
Mountain biking is effin awesome and alive and well all over the world. One bloody Londoner can't proclaim it dead.
'oh, mountain biking is pretty much dead, it's only a few old men doing it now'.
You know the average age on this forum, right? : )
All the kids who send it are on pinkbike and sales of new non-electric MTBs over ~£3k are falling every year. MTB isn't dying, it's changing though.
This may interest you. A one man band designing and marketing rigid mountain bike frames. Stooge Cycles, website and Facebook page. I may be biased as I have two!
Nope, it's just not what's selling in big numbers right now, I guess gravel bikes have diluted the market so much that XC hardtails are perhaps becoming niche race weapons (in the same way that you won't see many out-and-out CX bikes in the shops any more!).
Sales of 'MTBs' have plummeted since their heyday in the 90s and early 2000s. The 2012 Olympics saw a steep rise in the number of road bikes sold, but all but e-bikes sales have been in steady decline since.
It’s definitely more subdivided than I remember - we still have MTBs in the middle but some rides that used to be XC rides have turned into gravel rides and various MTB rides are just ebikes and you can’t keep up if you don’t have one.
And bikes have got a lot better so there don’t need to be as many subcategories. And geometry etc has settled down so there’s less reason to buy a new bike. A 29er hardtail is a great do many things bike!
A hardtail used to be the de facto standard 'bike' for most people. Hybrids were also extremely popular. These days, I rarely see a 'proper' MTB on the streets.
If you asked in a shop in London, then yes, their answer probably was right as that is not where mountain bikes are being sold and used.
London used to be the biggest market for all bikes, especially MTBs. Some of the best MTB specialist shops in the country were in London; FW Evans (before they sold out and became a crap chain), Cycle Surgery, Action Bikes and a few others were stocking some of the best kit you could buy. Even those roadie snobs Condor had to relent and stock MTBs. That was rather a long time ago mind. But London was by far the most important market for high end bikes nationally; it's where all the money lives. I used to know plenty of people who MTB'ed from London, they'd either drive or get a train out for the day, or go for longer trips including abroad, as I did. They don't do that any more; getting older and having more responsibilities etc plays a big part of course. Many became roadies with stupidly expensive carbon fibre race weapons.
"Mountain biking is effin awesome and alive and well all over the world. One bloody Londoner can't proclaim it dead."
Actually he was from Shropshire. 😉 Typical ****less middle class Gen Z lad with a Llama hairdo (I thought that style died out over a year ago?). But a colleague of his who was a bit older, did say that MTBs are a much smaller part of bike brands output these days, and there is far less demand for them. Where the average bike shop 20 years ago or so would have probably at least a third to half MTBs, lots of hybrid/commuter bikes, then a handful of road bikes, now, it's over half e-bikes (they did have some enormous and extremely expensive full suss E-MTBs actually), with the rest being mainly commuters and a few road bikes. Talking to friends who live in other parts of the country; Cornwall and the South West, various bits of Yorkshire, Cumbria and Scotland, they all say MTBs are less common. I did wonder if it was a particular London thing, and I can understand if it was, but apparently MTBs are less popular all over. Less youngsters seem to be taking up MTBing as a recreational activity. I got into it because in the late 80s, a 'mountain bike' was the coolest thing ever. Our Cumbrian friends live in an area that was extremely popular with MTBers, and they're saying that they see a lot less these days. What does annoy them (there's always something that annoys country folk!) is the rise of E-MTBs/electric motorbikes. The highly modified, very illegal ones. Unlike traditional off road motorbikes, they are silent, and very hard to catch.
Is 'gravel biking' the same as 'mountain biking'? Is it just the same but with different handlebars?
Companies got burnt by the post covid crash where they ended up with huge amounts of stock they couldn't get rid of so many streamlined their range. Still plenty of great hard tails about though for not silly money even if the expensive end of full suss is being swallowed up by e-bikes (for good reason, they're ace!).
Certainly not dead in Yorkshire and plenty of kids are hitting the trails.
certainly not dead in my area of yorkshire......
i know a fat old bloke who has recently bought a hardtail and is shredding ( slowly ) again.
40 here, so knocking on for 3 decades of proper mountain biking.
Its never been better.
I am immensely jealous of kids growing up to love MTB these days. Everything about it is awesome.
You need to stop over analysing. Buy yourself a bike, and get out there.
You'll soon cheer up!
Yes, deffo not dead in places with good riding. Here in Yorkshire there are a bunch of local enduro / jump spots dotted about the place and they're always busy. A mix of ages from teens up to old biffers like myself.
It is certainly changing though, gravel and MTB e bikes are the main things - Eaten into into both ends of the traditional MTB market.
I also agree the riding people are doing has changed a lot... Cumbria is a great example of that. I used to see loads of people out around the classic lakes spots.
I've been to the lakes a number of times over the last year and nowhere near as many people out. I think it's probably because it's *a lot* easier to go lapping enduro tracks in the woods on your eeb. And probably if I'm being totally honest it's probably more fun for most.
I look after a set of jumps in the corner of a park here in West Yorkshire. This winter a trio of young lads helped me give them a proper makeover. The numbers of kids that turn up to session them is nothing short of amazing and the bikes they ride range from expensive e-bikes to battered hardtails but the average bike, is the ubiquitous Carrera hardtail.
The jumps are designed to get you from beginnner to intermediate and built within an agreed difficulty range with the council.
Not too far away there are much bigger (non official) gap jumps hidden away in the woods and those same kids are moving on to sending these features on the same battered collection of bikes, and if they are lucky enough, persuading parents to take them to Farmer Johns, BPW or Dyfi.
So, as El Boufador and Chestrockwell say, its definitely not dead oop here, its more that the kids aren't interested in schlepping across moorland bridleways. I just wish they'd take their litter home...
My corner of the world is full of wonderful handbuilt trails, ranging from flowy to downright impossible so I think its about access to decent trails that is no doubt the reason for its continuing popularity.
On a personal note, we've just got back from a Lakes trip, Friday - Chapel, Sat - Grizedale off piste and Saturday Walna Scar and Hardknott Forest but at 55 we now do it on e-bikes because its just more fun. Hebden the weekend before, Wharncliffe or Win Hill coming up. BPW in August as a Dad's and Lads trip because my own lazy teenager can't be arsed locally but because I've been taking out since he was a boy can still keep up!
Sometimes I ride and build two to three times a day since buying the Levo 🙂
I look after a set of jumps in the corner of a park here in West Yorkshire. This winter a trio of young lads helped me give them a proper makeover. The numbers of kids that turn up to session them is nothing short of amazing and the bikes they ride range from expensive e-bikes to battered hardtails but the average bike, is the ubiquitous Carrera hardtail.
The jumps are designed to get you from beginnner to intermediate and built within an agreed difficulty range with the council.
Not too far away there are much bigger (non official) gap jumps hidden away in the woods and those same kids are moving on to sending these features on the same battered collection of bikes, and if they are lucky enough, persuading parents to take them to Farmer Johns, BPW or Dyfi.
So, as El Boufador and Chestrockwell say, its definitely not dead oop here, its more that the kids aren't interested in schlepping across moorland bridleways. I just wish they'd take their litter home...
But you've just done a whole load of describing how kids aren't into mountain biking and prefer jumping. Not MTB'ing in my book - and even if it does fit into some definition of MTB'ing, all those kids are going to end up on ebikes to get them back up the hill
I look after a set of jumps in the corner of a park here in West Yorkshire. This winter a trio of young lads helped me give them a proper makeover. The numbers of kids that turn up to session them is nothing short of amazing and the bikes they ride range from expensive e-bikes to battered hardtails but the average bike, is the ubiquitous Carrera hardtail.
The jumps are designed to get you from beginnner to intermediate and built within an agreed difficulty range with the council.
Not too far away there are much bigger (non official) gap jumps hidden away in the woods and those same kids are moving on to sending these features on the same battered collection of bikes, and if they are lucky enough, persuading parents to take them to Farmer Johns, BPW or Dyfi.
So, as El Boufador and Chestrockwell say, its definitely not dead oop here, its more that the kids aren't interested in schlepping across moorland bridleways. I just wish they'd take their litter home...
But you've just done a whole load of describing how kids aren't into mountain biking and prefer jumping. Not MTB'ing in my book - and even if it does fit into some definition of MTB'ing, all those kids are going to end up on ebikes to get them back up the hill
Well when I was young we used to ride the bridal ways looking for decent jump spots, usual in woods or old quarry's so that type of riding has always been part of my MTB'ing! We'll leave you to your narrow, personal definition though.
Most bike shops are now full of Gravel bikes and E-bikes. Cant remember the last time i went into a shop and saw some bike exotica. I think this is reflected out on the trails (surrey hills, QECP, south coast areas), as most folks seem to be on electric bikes. Sometimes its easy to identify if they are seasoned bikers that want to put less effort in, or someone who has recently bought an ebike and is new to riding in the woods.
On a recent holiday to canada, it was a different story. I popped into a few bikes shops and real bikes were aplenty. Some proper nice stuff, from the latest Demo DH bike, to various Santa Cruz's, Transitions, Forbidden etc. Far less ebikes. Although i am not sure what the rules are out there with regards to trail access and ebikes. This could limit the appeal.
But as folks have mentioned, its defo not dead, its just different these days. Folks seem more up for just the thrills, rather than the work it takes to get to the trails. I feel lucky that i enjoy all aspects of riding, the hard slogs uphill, the thrill of the downs and covering ground under my own steam (probably why i like running too).
Sometimes its easy to identify if they are seasoned bikers that want to put less effort in, or someone who has recently bought an ebike and is new to riding in the woods.
Saddle height is the give away.
Anyway... this three way split for off road riding... gravel, mtb, ebike just is what it is. Different strokes for different folks. Enjoy what you ride. It's only really a problem if you have no bike and really need to buy one from a local bike shop to ride today... and that's such a rare problem as to be discounted. Given a tiny bit of time and effort, and the choice when buying an mtb has never been better... and you'll find that the bikes have never been this good. The riding has never been this good. Drink up your half full glass and ride...
Well when I was young we used to ride the bridal ways looking for decent jump spots, usual in woods or old quarry's so that type of riding has always been part of my MTB'ing! We'll leave you to your narrow, personal definition though.
But in the context of the OP and people riding actual mountain bikes, I guarantee you 9/10 of the kids described in Mugboo's post will end up buying ebikes to winch and plummet.
Those kids are out in the woods riding bikes, that's mountain biking in their definition and who knows where it will lead them... And in answer to the OP, it requires the purchase of a mountain bike.
I started off on a BMX riding round the street, dropping off walls, bunnyhopping and endoing everwhere and this lead to building quarter pipes and eventually through those horrible 90's road bike/mountain bikes to where I am today. Still on two wheels, still building, still using those endo and bunnyhop skills 🙂
I would strongly disagree and having a browse through the numbers knocking around, phrases like normalised growth crop up a lot when looking at the future outlook for sales. Emtbs are obviously a big growth area but not the be all and end all!
Pop to somewhere close to London, like Swinley, and it’s absolutely heaving with mountain bikers, the same with lots of places. 🙂
Old MTB = pedalling culture - MTB may have come from Repack but it boomed as XC/trail MTBs took off. MTB was about uphill and downhill and trails.
More recent MTB = uplift culture - similarities to snowboarding approach in that earning your turns is daft old waffle, just do more turns and have fun. DH and Enduro grab more attention than XCO and few people get into MTB from a roadie mentality. There's gravel bikes for the off-road roadies now and that's boosting the shift to uplift culture in MTB. This is why MTB is becoming a powered sport, why E-MTBs are doing so well.
No point going on about what is or isn't MTB because it sounds like an old man in a rocking chair talking about the old days .. MTB is about the trails, the terrain and the buzz it gives us. You need to be at threshold up the hills or doing 50km across the moors to feel that and it's kinda obvious that most people would choose the uplift assist trail spot option over the moorland schlep looking for that 5% of the ride that is actual fun trail*
*there's gravel bikes for that**
**no, gravel is not 90s MTB either - early 90s MTBers aspired to ride like Tomac and was still MTB / uplift culture, we just didn't have the bikes or the uplift options to do a lot more than trail/XC, yet we did session DHs and do jumps. Now we have the options and riding has moved on. Gravel is roadie pedalling culture, there's a difference, there's aero gravel bikes and racers in tight lycra. Gravel is nothing like MTB.
Hmm... I know gravel riders that absolutely aspire to ride like Tomac! It's as much about regaining the fun/buzz of local trails as it is about covering miles. Depends where you're lucky enough to live.
its more that the kids aren't interested in schlepping across moorland bridleways.
This kinda sums it up for me. The kind of MTB that (probably) we all do - "Big/Long circles in the woods or Moorland along bridleways with occasional singletrack decent/ribbon trhough the trees, mostly XC, with climbing. Over 4/5 hours carrying food and water" is dying off, or being ridden (because you can) on new, more fashionable gravel bikes. Kids aren't [currently] interested in that, they want to be like the Insta clips they consume of park jumps and short wildly steep technical sessioning. a la Tommy C Hype.
MTB is entirely fashion led discretionary spending, and the fashion now (because we're* all getting older) is E-Bikes and Gravel bikes, and the generation behind us aren't buying "normal HT MTBs" because they aren't on the shop floor. Fashions change, it'll probably come around again at some point.
*The general "we" I get that some of us are still clinging to non-E bikes.
You need to be at threshold up the hills or doing 50km across the moors to feel that
You don't need to be, I mean.
Hmm... I know gravel riders that absolutely aspire to ride like Tomac! It's as much about regaining the fun/buzz of local trails as it is about covering miles. Depends where you're lucky enough to live.
Yeah, me too! I 100% know what you mean. I'm generalising though, about the majority and what a bike genre biases your riding towards, plus looking at what most gravel bikes actually are. They may claim technical prowess but it's relative, and relatively crap compared to a light XC/DC hardtail. And really, if you're into the buzz of riding in that way (styled air at full gas like Tomac or Shurter) you're not likely to be on drop bars for long, the novelty wears off fast. It's like fixed gear freestyle .. some can but in time it's an evolutionary dead end or at best a superniche.
I like the buzz of my local 'average XC' trails so for getting the most fun out of them as well as doing long distance I ride a technically adept rigid 29er. A drop bar bike is just lame (for technical riding) in comparison to that format. That sort of 29er is 100% an old school MTB, 'like 90s MTB', but updated. A gravel bike, much less so, imo.
Its also that from a shop perspective the rate of improvement in non-ebikes has basically stopped if you bought a 29er 8 years ago why would you buy a new bike other than N+1/shiney. So less people are upgrading their normal bikes but people are buying e-bikes as they don’t have one yet.
Kids aren't [currently] interested in that, they want to be like the Insta clips they consume of park jumps and short wildly steep technical sessioning. a la Tommy C Hype.
Who? : )
But it's just like how/why I wanted to ride like John Tomac when I was 15.
All that's happened is the pinnacle of the activity is now Hardlines rather than Durango round of the Grundigs. It moved on, the gap between what we do and what we see creates a motivating pull but for most of us it widens because <3% can be that good. At some point the elastic snaps and we stop the unrealistic aspirations. After that we might see 'things changing' and put it down to fashion or 'it's not the same anymore' - we're less likely to recognise it's just us that stopped changing or progressing with the thing. It's an ego thing.
There's so many ways to progress though - fitness, skill, places, simple appreciation of the experience and so on. Ignore the marketing and do it for your own reasons and 'what is MTB?' ceases to matter. Put effort into what matters to you, or be ok with putting no effort in - as long as you enjoy it, right?
So, yeah, MTB is not dead, the only thing that dies is a rider's ability to cope with change and progress in themselves or others. A good cure for that might be to just go ride and your bike..
Why worry, ride which ever bike you like and be happy.
After all we are all doomed
Living in London
I think this might be a large part of it. As a London based mountain biker the shops here (understandably) never focussed much on mountain bikes: most of their custom is road or commuter and fashion has moved on (if you're going to ride an unsuitable bike as a commuter it's more likely to be a drop bar bike than a mountain bike these days). There were a few shops that did more, and way back when the Beastway races were running that had an impact (Brixton Cycles had a team), there was a shop up in Islington I forget the name of that I bought a bike from (and I'm in south London) and there was Moose Cycles in Colliers Wood but they've all gone now.
Evans and Cycle Surgery always had mtb's but they've both gone and I suspect in the shops that remain Gravel bikes make more sense on a London shop floor. Get out to Surrey and theres no shortage of bikes shops specialising in mtb.
I think the mistake you Made OP was going into a bike shop in that there Laaandarn.
MTBs ain´t dead, and not everyone wants a leccy bike, but bricks and mortar shops have to adapt to the local market where ever they happen to be located, you can still easily obtain a new, un-assisted HT or FS bike at just about every imaginable pricepoint but sadly you´ll have to use the internets to research and shop about.
i live in devizes wiltshire and i see people riding all types of bikes on salisbury plain,kennet and avon canal and the ridgeway (yes gravel bikes, e mtb's but also mountain bikes).
my favourite bike shop is a specialized dealer and they don't have any expensive bikes in stock as the bulk of their earnings comes from repairs (they are in melksham town so not really suited for stocking high end stuff).
i did buy an epic comp ht from them a couple of weeks ago though (and they do order s works bikes and e bikes for people just not stock them as above).
i am 51 so old yes 😉
There was definitely a long period where if you bought a generic bike it was probably an approximation of a mountain bike. That time seems to have passed - which is quite ironic considering that a 29er with fast tyres is probably the ideal bike for navigating modern pothole-strewn urban roads, whilst having an upright position that lets you see the traffic clearly and makes you look more like a person and less like the motorists’ worst enemy: The Proper Roadie.
My LBS is a Specialized dealer in Brighton and they now stock very few high-end longer travel full-sus bikes, it’s almost all commuter bikes, gravel bikes, XC bikes and e-bikes (both big bouncy and commuter ones).
XC bikes and shorter travel trail bikes have got so good that few want to pedal a bigger bike uphill without help. I think if you live somewhere with more rocks and longer descents where fatigue matters more there’s still a market for the 160mm+ bikes, or if there’s uplifts.
I have a pretty big extended riding group and the rate of new bike buying has massively dropped since 10-15 years ago when things were improving so fast that you’d buy a better bike to keep up! My two bikes are 4 and 8 years old and the upsides of “upgrading” are tiny compared to the cost of doing so. (The only think I can think I’d like is a steeper seat angle and some more reach on the 8 year old ebike. The 29” singlespeed hardtail is dialled, couldn’t better it)
There was definitely a long period where if you bought a generic bike it was probably an approximation of a mountain bike. That time seems to have passed - which is quite ironic considering that a 29er with fast tyres is probably the ideal bike for navigating modern pothole-strewn urban roads, whilst having an upright position that lets you see the traffic clearly and makes you look more like a person
I remember richard cunningham talking about this heydey of the low cost mountain bike
compared to your other options of the day, which was a townie/"girls bike" or a "10speed" road bike.
You got gears that gave a decent range and could be shifted from the bars, brakes that worked, tyres that didnt pop at the sight of gravel or from riding up a curb, and were roughly at the same, usable, psi after it had sat in the garage for two weeks, and a relatively comfy upright riding position.
Once you start trying to add everything that makes a modern mtb actually good at mtbing, especially at a lower price point, you make it actively worse for the light duty casual user.
