[Closed] Mountain Biking - Club Ride Risk Assessment

😯 🙄

Indeed - do they do risk assessments for road rides?

I would do it as s very simple one

Risk - crashing and hurting yourself - level low

Action - ensure everyone is competent to ride

(apparently its needed for BC 3rd party insurance) and if so, how detailed have they taken it?

Rubbish, you don't need to do a formal RA, it doesn't affect the club insurance at all.
You actually can't RA a club ride, conditions will change depending on weather, what day it is (ie weekend might be busy with walkers, weekday might be dead). All you need to do is demonstrate that you've thought about the level of the group and planned accordingly (bail out route etc) and even that doesn't need to be written down.

Rules: take group of mates out riding, enjoy.

Drop me an email through the website - www.mountainbikeinstruction.co.uk and I will email you a sample, which should help.

Ray

You actually can't RA a club ride, conditions will change depending on weather, what day it is (ie weekend might be busy with walkers, weekday might be dead).

wouldn't that apply to all rides, be they club or taking a group of school kids out ?

you could make it very hard for yourself by detailing every hazard and feature. instead be quite general and use generic risk and action templates and apply then apply them to multiple places ie:

risk - people taking wrong turn at x in trail @ (grid refs)

action (a) - advise group to wait at cross
action (b) - group leader to be at head of group

keep it simple.

our club has a generic one for rides over 600m or that are in remote area (less than 30mins walk to civilisation). i'm on the committee for the club & was dead against individual route leaders having to undertake risk assessments for rides, but this document that was produced basically just gives leaders worst case scenarios and things to think about in order to prevent these from happening. its really good and very detailed, although most of it [i]should[/i] be pretty obvious to more experienced mountain bikers.

pretty sure its in the public domain, so could email it over if you like?

I ride my mountain bike precisely to get away from this shit.

+1

What an utter load of tosh, ffs, wtf etc.

peachos - that'd be great, thanks - email in profile

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

RayMazey.....If the OP is not a qualified leader/first aider, which given he is asking the question I suspect not, will the RA be valid re the BC insurance ❓

Trekster

I am not a lawyer.

However, as far as I am aware their is no legal requirement to hold a Mountain Bike Leader Qualification to lead groups (unless under certain circumstances when leading under 18 in remote areas, and even then only if a commercial operation).

Also being qualified does not take away the possibility of possible negligence claims. What is important I feel, is to risk assess any given situation and applying controls to minimise risk.

I am not big on ticket collecting, I am more for applying knowledge to minimise risk. Unfortunately, not everyone will have that knowleedge, if they have little exprience of leading mountain bike groups / or have not been trained.

Only my opinion of course.

Ray

Also being qualified does not take away the possibility of possible negligence claims

It probably increases them as you will be claiming to have specific knowledge - you will be judged to a higher standard

Correct TJ

Ask to see their road ride RA. If they don't have one, challenge them on it. If they do have one, check the date on it to see the last time it was updated and challenge them on it if this date isn't recent.

As soon as you start risk assessing club rides, you'll have to start deciding who is responsible for keeping them updated and who is responsible for the ride, do they have to be qualified, etc. If the designated ride leader isn't there, who is then responsible, and do they then carry out their own risk assessment of the ride. Does everyone on the ride (being there of their own free will, being a club) then need to see the risk assessment to appreciate the reasonable risks identified and actions, etc. Idea of generic one is great, however, even it needs updated to take account of newly identified risks/actions - no point having one, if the next time it is checked is way down the line. And who is responsible for updating, storing, checking it? Do the roadies do this for their rides setting precedent?

It's not a business or local authority, it's a club. Club members should be aware of the risks of the activity they take part in and responsible for performing their own dynamic risk assessment of a ride/features against their ability.

I could be wrong though

Ray, I'm with you. Not particularly something that excites me or that I was particularly interested in - ours started out as an exercise to help to prove sufficient care had been taken to minimise risk of serious injury should any liability case surface (don't think it would though better to be safe than sorry).

however, now it is done and the information is there for all club members to see and think about its surely a good thing.

none of our route leaders have to have any formal training, they only need to confirm they have read and understood a set of guidelines, which this is included as part of.

we also have skill & fitness ratings (1-5) for every ride that is posted which helps keep the responsibility of a person attending a ride firmly with the individual. the club firmly states that the responsibility of the route leader is to plan and show the way, nothing more. they have no first aid (etc) responsibilities.

Generally speaking as the risk increases the brakes are applied further

Job done

8)

Just amend your club rules to say something like, we are not liable for any injuries sustained while road cycling or mountain biking, all persons are responsible for their own safety, but here's a list of precautions we recommend you take...... Or something along those lines.

I'm riding in the Peak District at the weekend. I'm going to dive in to the middle of any group who even resembles a club and I'm going to jig about like the lead singer of James and generally cause myself to be a huge unasessed risk just to bollocks up the beurocratic (*I'm dyslexic - OK?) shit that this is all about.
Good grief!

* Not really, just can't spell it

Doesn't sound like a particularly outrageous request for someone organising a group activity. If you don't want to be constrained to such formality then don't go riding with an official club. It doesn't need to be OTT but TJ's suggestion is inadequate.

Risk - crashing and hurting yourself - level low

Action - ensure everyone is competent to ride

There are two reasons for completing a risk assessment: 1. to identify and reduce risk - that is something that most people do mentally anyway as the ride round; 2. to record the findings either as a way of sharing them with others or as a means of proving you took reasonable precautions before you chucked a MAMIL with skinny tyres on a carbon road bike off a six foot drop off!

TJ's approach opens up the question what is "competent", who can assess that, how will you assess that, how will you split the group if there are different standards, and of course competent to ride the blue loop at a trail centre is different from crossing the Torridon.

I'd suggest some of the things to consider are:

- route type / grading - technical skill level required. How will it be assessed and shared with the group. What option exist for bailing out if someone had guessed wrong.
- physical hazards, barbed wire, big drops, trees, etc. How will these be highlighted to new riders.
- risk of rider collisions. How will riders be "kept apart".
- risk of person getting injured. First aid kit, trained people?, ability to call for help.
- risk of getting lost, and consequently cold, wet etc.
- procedure if a group member gets detached from the rest.
- risk that any person is taken unwell (e.g. diabetic, asthmatic etc).

There are probably others. Either formally or informally someone has probably done this for road rides too - and there will be a recognised modus operandi for that club and the way it works. Your "risk assessment" is likely to inform some joining instructions, and give advice on kit (spares, waterproofs etc), bike choice, likely distance, and provide some helpful information with contact numbers etc. Its not rocket science but for a group of people who don't necessarily know each other well is all useful stuff anyway so don't get het up about it being a risk assessment.

How much of the above applies or is explicitly obvious depends on the environment. If its a ride round a local country park or trail centre then the approach to risk may be different in some regards from real MTB, if it is a bunch of experienced riders again it may be implicit that all this is covered, but if its a bunch of roadies dabbling then maybe they are looking for some guidance. Since its a roady club I'd be highlighting the differences (e.g. 25 miles on a MTB is a lot "longer" than 25 miles on a roadbike; can get colder; tend not to bunch up so much)...

EDIT - oh and weather does affect things so a generic one needs to cover everything from sunburn and heatstroke to ice and snow. In a slightly different world, I have risk assessed stuff so it says: "if the current or forecast weather is >F5, then the leader(s) on the day must make a specific assessment of the current and likely conditions taking into account the experience level of the group, the surface conditions, proposed route, visibility levels etc. They should discuss their findings with the group before departing." That doesn't say don't go - it simply says its higher risk and needs more review by the people on the ground.

This is mind boggling.

Just for my own curiosity, what happens if you don't complete a risk assessment and there's an incident on the ride? Potential legal action against the risk organiser by the injured party?

Whenever anyone asks me why I ride my bike, my answer is it's the closest thing I can get to being a kid again and going out to play and explore with my mates on our bikes.

As far as I can remember, none of us ever completed a risk assessment when we were 10 years old and playing in the woods on our bikes ➡

We've done this in the past as well. You do sometimes feel a bit of a tool trying to write an RA for taking people on a DH course or some set of horrendously exposed switchbacks in the Alps.

At the same time, it does encourage you to properly think about some things and how you'll handle them. We got some useful ideas about group management on the trails and things like that out of the exercise.

At the same time we were doing this, the CERN accelerator nearby was just about to switch on. We were thinking about the guys doing the RA for that:

Hazard: Accidental creation of a black hole and destruction of the planet

Who does it affect: Everyone on the planet

Risk mitigation: The guys in the white coats said it would be fine. 😉

Poly - I wasn't being entirely serious you know.

I have to say I think it is outrageous and OTT to do a detailed risk assessment in this way when it is not a requirement at all.

It raises all sorts of other questions such as who is competent to do the risk assessments? Have they been trained adequately?

A voluntary club is very different from a paid guiding company and IMO Polys suggestions are far more relevant to the latter.

I'd get on to british cycling and see what they suggest but while my not serious suggestion may be too brief a very brief and simple approach is IMO far better.

For a generic MTB RA more than one side of A4 would be too long...KISS

If you're a generally responsible and clued up leader, then there probably isn't a need for a formal risk assessment. IE if you took the group out, they were struggling so you naturally go the easy way. If however you're a bit of a liability, who would not even think of changing a route, or cutting it short because the weather had turned nasty then carry out a risk assessment as you probably need the discipline of carrying one out to ensure safety. Don't look at is as a chore, just a great way of making you think about what you're doing and what decisions you need to make. It can also really help when you are stood on top of the mountain, it's raining, the group has taken twice as long to get to this point as you thought, half the group want to do the steep technical descent, but the other half doesn't. If you've done a risk assessment you will automatically be reminded of it and take the easy way to the pub.

We've not carried out a risk assessment as a club, although we probably should.

- risk of rider collisions. How will riders be "kept apart".

I'm struggling with this one.
Is the solution to warn all riders not to ride into other riders?

It does seem - superficially - a load of tosh... and I sometimes help lead club rides...

Until you are faced with:

A mother who wishes to leave her child with you leading on a club ride on a day when it is wet and cold and blowing a gale, and she might not be contactable... (happened to me a year ago)
Someone who turns up without a helmet to ride in the trees (Happens every few months)
Someone (me) who jumps without his bike and lies on the ground unconscious
Someone who sues the club for something that happens whilst a club member is leading ( has happened in the SCGB a few times)

At that point you realise that the minute you become an organised body, rather than a loose alliance of mates, you have to do due diligence at some point...

This may mean assessing risks in advance, stating how you would mitigate them (First Aid training, leadership rules, helmet wearing, TCL or BC qualifications, consent forms for parents, ICE cards, Participation statements).

Now you can decide whether this is H&S gone mad and do the minimum possible, or whether you make it a useful and interesting learning exercise which improves your leadership skills. The latter seems to me a better way. But your choice.

You CAN'T formally RA a club ride. There are way too many variables and "what if...?" scenarios.
Best you can hope for is a dynamic RA (basically as you go along) and a bit of "Boy Scout, be prepared":
"Oh there's a massive thunderstorm coming, I won't go over that big exposed moorland with no escape route"
"Oh we've had 18 punctures between us, I'll cut the ride short now"
"The trails are drier than I thought, I'll include the extra DH option"

You don't even need to write any of this down, it has NO effect on the club's liability policy with BC. If you're really seriously worried that some newcomer may attempt to sue if he so much as scratches himself, get him to sign a disclaimer or (my option) don't take him out! If a parent leaves a child in your care, get some contact details for them, that kind of thing. Basic common sense although you can call it a RA if it makes everyone feel better.

From the OP

(apparently its needed for BC 3rd party insurance

the only really effective Risk assessment is a dynamic one being performed by the group leader. Even then it doesn't preclude someone getting a puncture at 20mph and stoving into a tree as a result, culminating in an airlift to the A and E with a broken pelvis/Femur/Pride.

In short, unless you are acting as the 'guide' for the day, I would tell them to get knotted.

Highclimber - the only really effective Risk assessment is a dynamic one being performed by the group leader

I will have to disagree with that, if you have already risk assessed the trail which you will be leading the group on.

Someone who sues the club for something that happens whilst a club member is leading ( has happened in the SCGB a few times)

SCGB are on VERY dodgy ground though!

Off-piste ski holidays. Booked as a full package through the club. In France. With unqualified* club members guiding. 😯

"But we're a club, not a commercial operator!" Aye, right!

*Yes, I know, they do have their own training course. It doesn't really stack-up against ski instructor or mountain guide training though.

I will have to disagree with that, if you have already risk assessed the trail which you will be leading the group on.

Agree with Ray. If you're leading a trail you don't know (which is a risk in itself), then of course a dynamic risk assessment of the specific features of that trail is all you can do. This doesn't make it the "best" thing though!

If you already know the trail well, then you can do a very effective risk assessment while sat at a desk.

OMG can't believe the state of the world!!! Just get out and ride, this sounds utterly boring and just goes to enforce why I ride with friends and not an organised group. FFS this sort of crap just infuriates me, I hope to never meet people like this on the trails, and if I did I would pass you very quickly as you would be all stood around looking at a rock or some serious braking bumps!!!

ruscle - I fully appreciate what you are saying.

However, when you become the responsible person for the group you are leading, it can become a totally different situation with the possibility of added resonsibilities. I guess thats why training courses are provided to address such issues.

ruscle (and ray):

Fully agree with both of you. Would add that when you're working as a commercial leader (totally different from riding with your mates or even a club), having done all the RA crap in advance should actually make the ride flow better. It means that if you come to a "Oh crap, what do I do now?" situation, hopefully you already know the answer and don't have to fanny-around.

- risk of rider collisions. How will riders be "kept apart".
I'm struggling with this one.
Is the solution to warn all riders not to ride into other riders?

It's not quite as daft as it sounds. If the riders are experienced roadies but not experienced riding offroad then they may not be aware of how suddenly riders in front might change their speed of the sheer number of obstacles that there might be. Riding offroad you don't normally ride in a chain gang (or whatever it's called) because it's too dangerous whereas on the road it is fine, depending on cricumstances..

i appreciate ruscle's point of view too - pretty much hate this sort of stuff. in reality, for me and my club, now we have a generic RA and a bunch of guidance that everyone who rides with the club has signed they have read - it actually makes very little difference to what, where and when we ride.

for example i took a bunch of mates (or members if you want to call them that) up ben lomond at the weekend in very wet and windy conditions. i probably did an ad hoc risk assessment in my head at 900m in 70mph winds and decided turning around and getting down was safer than pressing on to the summit. i probably would have done this anyway, but the extra knowledge gained from the RA & guidance certainly helped.

Wear a helmet and make sure your bike is working are the only two guidelines for our club. If you think something's too dodgy to ride, get off and push.

First of all I must say, this is essentially a bunch of mates going for a ride. The idea of doing it under the club banner was to drum up interest in developing an MTB arm of the club with a view to regular rides and racing.

TBH it did not even cross my mind when I arranged the ride! We certainly WILL NOT be stood about looking at rocks (between us in the group we've done, to name a few, the off road coast to coast, England and Scotland, riden the alps, loads of races and recently the Transrockies, so I think we are qualified enough!!)

I'm looking at the BC stuff, but if it's for 3rd party insurance, surely the risks that should be assessed are those where we might take out a rambler and they want to sue?!?!

surely the risks that should be assessed are those where we might take out a rambler and they want to sue?!?!

Just ride off quick, it works for me.

Quick check in the office; these may be useful to tick a few boxes and have a care free weekend 🙂

You CAN'T formally RA a club ride. There are way too many variables and "what if...?" scenarios.

Of course you can. This is where H&S gets a bad name, from people not understanding it. Take the example of the puncture at 20mph and hitting a tree. You cannot stop this, but a control measure would be to check no-one has bald and splitting tyres before you take them down a steep rocky course.

Likewise you cannot prevent people falling on a steep section, but you can have a disaster plan with first aiders, means of evacuation/communication etc.

I lead lots of group rides for the club and they have all been risk assessed. Experience changes those assessments all the time and the plans get changed accordingly. I bet no-one on those rides would be aware of that though, they are just aware that if anything goes wrong, it gets sorted out. That's not the same as "standing around looking at rocks and braking bumps". Of course competent riders don't want to (and would probably be offended) do a "M" check on their bikes before a ride, but that doesn't stop me surreptitiously looking at their tyres and having a few spares etc. Still occasionally get caught out though like not having any spare links for a SS chain!

So for the OP. Think about what could happen and how you could prevent it. If you can't prevent it, how could you reduce its likelihood. If it does all go wrong, then how would you deal with it. That is all that is required.

boriselbrus, you're selectively quoting me. Read all of what I wrote and you'll see that actually I said pretty much exactly that - common sense guidance and precautions and a dynamic RA rather than a "filling in a form with every possible scenario" approach with anyone with any common sense would tell you is just not possible..

As far as I can remember, none of us ever completed a risk assessment when we were 10 years old and playing in the woods on our bikes

First of all I must say, this is essentially a bunch of mates going for a ride. The idea of doing it under the club banner was to drum up interest in developing an MTB arm of the club with a view to regular rides and racing.

TBH it did not even cross my mind when I arranged the ride! We certainly WILL NOT be stood about looking at rocks (between us in the group we've done, to name a few, the off road coast to coast, England and Scotland, riden the alps, loads of races and recently the Transrockies, so I think we are qualified enough!!)

I have to say I think it is outrageous and OTT to do a detailed risk assessment in this way when it is not a requirement at all.

It raises all sorts of other questions such as who is competent to do the risk assessments? Have they been trained adequately?

A voluntary club is very different from a paid guiding company and IMO Polys suggestions are far more relevant to the latter.

I've read quite a lot of accident reports (nothing to do with biking) and its quite clear that risk assessment are mostly seen as a paperwork formality, and there is little contingency planning for what happens when it all goes wrong, and who is in control.

My local roady club split their road rides into two abilities. They publicise the kit you need to bring. The provide some general road riding tips. They have a policy that in the slow group nobody gets dropped. In the fast group if you are getting dropped they will try to leave you somewhere to get swept up by the slow group. Roadies use hand signals to communicate hazards etc. I don't know if anyone formally called that a risk assessment - but its the description of how their rides work for the enjoyment (and safety) of everyone.

- risk of rider collisions. How will riders be "kept apart".

I'm struggling with this one.
Is the solution to warn all riders not to ride into other riders?

surely the risks that should be assessed are those where we might take out a rambler

you didn't but unwittingly your parents probably did... is he good enough not to fall off all the time? do we know where he is is so if he doesn't come home we can go looking for him etc...

I'm sure my parents thought my friends and I led some sort of Famous Five-esque existence when we went out to play whereas in reality we were somewhere between Stig of the Dump and Evel Knievel. They would have had a coronary if they knew what mischief we got up to.

Did the famous five not get kidnapped, stop smugglers etc... ...your parents would have been reassured to know you were 'just' jumping over each other on bikes.

Poly - I knw and use risk assessments often.

you want to ride within the structure of the club I can't see that it is any different to a paid guide.

The duty of care is different when you are paying for a service or if someone professes to have certain skills. you expect a higher standard and the person would be judged to a higher standard.

I am a registered nurse. If I do first aid I am expected to know more than a lay person and to perform better and thus I could be held to accounts for mistakes to a much higher standard.

If you are paying for a service you expect then to be professional, in a club you expect a competent amateur as a leader, riding with pals its just as a member of the public.

All 3 cases would be judged on different standards. YOu are judged against the skils you profess to have or would be expected to have for a competent person in your position.

Tj, I would respectfully suggest that you are completing ra's to achieve or demonstrate compliance and not to manage risk. This is a problem I encounter every day.

How does the standard of care you are expected to give vary if you are being paid or voluntary?

Now I don't expect a club to do customer service, or necessarily to offer any guiding or coaching, but what I would expect is that the club, especially for new activities makes clear what people can expect. It can of course say expert riders only all expected to be totally self sufficient etc, but that kind of negate the point of the club then.

**** me, the poor bloke only asked how detailed his r.a needed to be, instead he's subjected to a load of bile from some and the best part of 2 pages of self indulgent argument from others.

there has been some good advice from mtb guides on here and i hope he's been able to sift it out.

🙄

trailmonkey - bang on!

Thanks for all the contributions folks. I'll concentrate on 3rd party issues as this is what it is aimed at, not 'what happens if someone falls off'.

If they ask for the other stuff, much of it can be cribbed from the road club rides RA, it covers it (well maintained bikes, what happens if there's a mechanical etc etc.)

And yes, it would be better if we didn't need to do it, but if it means more people join the MTB side of the club and we all go riding/racing - that has to be good surely?!

Poly - I use risk assessments to manage risk.

Duty of care varies depending on the professed or expected skills of the person who owes you that duty IIRC.

For ****s sake, what a load of shit.

Just ride your bikes FFS.

TO make your RA's easier, differentiate between hazard and risk ie what can go wrong, and the likelihood of it going wrong considering the `controls' you have in place.

Poly - I use risk assessments to manage risk.

Duty of care varies depending on the professed or expected skills of the person who owes you that duty IIRC.

Poly - I didn't avoid your question - [i]duty of care[/i] is what you owe to someone and yes if you are being paid to do a service you will be judged, on whether or not you have breached your duty of care, to a higher standard than if you are a volunteer as a general rule.

TJ,

You'll have some case law to back that up I presume? Not that the liability/compensation against a volunteer was less but that they owed a lower duty of care in the first place?

Your own assertion that as a registerred nurse you have a higher duty of care than a layman encountering a casualty (presumably 'offduty') seems to contradict the claim. The difference is not about your employment status but rather in what you could reasonably be expected to do.

As a club member I think I could reasonably expect that my club would organise its activities in a safe and responsible manner. I can reasonably expect that a club moving into a new type of activity will consider the risks involved. As a fellow "trail user" I can reasonably expect other trail users to show a duty of care. And if those other users are part of an organised group that the organisers will have shown reasonable care in planning and executing the activities. I'm not sure which part of this responsibility you think doesn't exist.

However since you claim to understand that the real purpose of risk assessment is about identifying, communicating, and reducing risk not about legislation/litigation the duty element is irrelevant.

Poly

We are getting all muddled up here in technical terms.

Its about what level of skill you can be expected to have. While I would expect a club leader to have a certain level of skill and above that of a layperson it would be unreasonable to expect them to have the same level of skill as a paid guide.

But, by virtue of the services they offer and supply, professional people hold themselves out as having more than average abilities. This specialised set of rules determines the standards against which to measure the legal quality of the services actually delivered by those who claim to be among the best in their fields of expertise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_negligence_in_English_Law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breach_of_duty_in_English_law

[img] [/img]

There are a lot of misconceptions on here about this.

So some facts.

1) There is no such thing in law as "at your own risk", so if an organised group is involved it is responsible wahtever you might think.
2) Everyone does RA's all the time. For example you don't step off a path into the path of a bus, because you have RA'ed the outcome and decided to minimise the risk by waiting till the roads clear.
3) Written RA's are no different and are for the organisers benefit. They enable you to demonstrate that you have fulfilled your duty of care to those that you are responsible for should you have the need to.
4) There is no need to do one until someone you lead falls, injures themself and as a result finds themself without an income or have to claim off their insurance. Roughly about that time the no win no fee bods arrive and thats when you will find you need the RA. Obviously if that eventuality is never going to happen you don't need one at all.
5) RA's don't need to be difficult and complicated, nor do they have to cover every imaginable eventuality. They just evidence the fact that you have looked at what you are doign and had a good think about how to keep what risks there obviously are under as much control as possible

General advice.

a) Check bikes are fit for purpose
b) Check riders are fit for purpose
c) If any have ailments like asthma make sure they have their inhaler/medication with them.
d) Assess ability and avoid taking them anywhere outside of their ability, or advise them to dismount where you have concerns.
e) Have first aid provision available
f) Pre ride the route and plan bail outs if needed and check phone coverage.
g) Lead the ride from the back, in your pre ride plan obvious stopping points that are easily recognised and advise lead riders to stop there once they reach each point and wait for you to close up.
h) Do a route plan/map and stick to it.
j) Make sure someone else has a copy and knows where you will be and when to expect you back.
k) Arrange for them to alert emergency services/assistance if you don't return/call in (from the pre planned phone-in point with good reception) within X period of that time.

Alternatively you might want to consider your answers to this question... Well Mr. X please show the court what steps you put in place to fulfill your duty of care to my clients deceased/disabled partner?

General advice.

a) Check bikes are fit for purpose
b) Check riders are fit for purpose
c) If any have ailments like asthma make sure they have their inhaler/medication with them.
d) Assess ability and avoid taking them anywhere outside of their ability, or advise them to dismount where you have concerns.
e) Have first aid provision available
f) Pre ride the route and plan bail outs if needed and check phone coverage.
g) Lead the ride from the back, in your pre ride plan obvious stopping points that are easily recognised and advise lead riders to stop there once they reach each point and wait for you to close up.
h) Do a route plan/map and stick to it.
j) Make sure someone else has a copy and knows where you will be and when to expect you back.
k) Arrange for them to alert emergency services/assistance if you don't return/call in (from the pre planned phone-in point with good reception) within X period of that time.

Alternatively you might want to consider your answers to this question... Well Mr. X please show the court what steps you put in place to fulfill your duty of care to my clients deceased/disabled partner?

Do you honestly do all that every time you go out for a ride? 😕

Do you honestly do all that every time you go out for a ride

Pretty much when I'm responsible for the safety of a group.

Why? Am i safe to presume then that you

a) never bother to check your bike before riding,
b) ride when it is self evident that you are not up to it for some reason,
c) leave important medications where you can't get them when you are quite likely to need them
d) ride everything regardless whether its within you or your bikes capabilities or not
e)don't take even the most basic of safety precautions
f)ride off with no knowledge of where you are, where you are going or how to get back
g) continuously lose contact with whoever you are riding with
j) never tell anyone where you are or when you are likely to be back

H and k I will admit I tend not to do when riding alone, but I do tell my Mrs the name of the loop I'm doing and the contact details of someone who knows it just in case.

To be honest most of that seems pretty basic and not terribly hard to me even when just riding with mates or on my own. Definately not much of an issue if I'm taking a group ride.

a & b

That's it

Hope I do not sound like a boring old f**t. However - For the past 10 years I have been a full time Mountain Bike Coach.

1) Would I take a group out before carrying out a risk assessment - No

2) Does a risk assessment need to be complicated - No

3) Hardest part of your Risk assessment is assessing the skill level of your group. Is this easy to do without observing them riding a bike off road - No

Obviously if you know the ability of your group this makes life much easier.

4) Is it easy to included some simple assessment techniques / off road techniques training to assess the level of your group - Yes.

I have little doubt, that the vast majority of people with little or no exprience of leading a group of mountain bikers off road, would benefit greatly from undertaking some form of risk assessment / basic coaching techniques training (specific to off-road riding).

Believe it or not (and I have done a lot of different jobs over many years) Coaching /Leading/ Guiding whichever you are involved in, is not as easy as many people may think.

Prepares for Flaming :o)

We are getting all muddled up here in technical terms.

Its about what level of skill you can be expected to have. While I would expect a club leader to have a certain level of skill and above that of a layperson it would be unreasonable to expect them to have the same level of skill as a paid guide.

Coaching /Leading/ Guiding whichever you are involved in, is not as easy as many people may think.

ditto what Ray said

Poly - I have not confused it at all. I believe you have. you seemed to think the amateur and the professional are judged to the same standards. they are not.

I think your approach is confused and inappropriate. Its to prescriptive, too specific and at the same time far too limited and limiting

I could pull your approach apart bit by bit but it all seems rather pointless

Lets just agree to disagree on it. I have done substantial professional training on risk assessments and the surrounding law

Hope I do not sound like a boring old f**t. However - For the past 10 years I have been a full time Mountain Bike Coach.

And as it's your job I think that's quite expected.

Just can't see the need for it when you're going for a ride with your mates.

Agree BB. Going for a ride with my mates is a totally different thing, as then I am not leading the ride or coaching.

However, even then I have been told about the odd risk or two. So somebody must have carried out some form of RA, albeit a very basic one.

Just can't see the need for it when you're going for a ride with your mates.

... but then thats not what this thread is about when alls said and done.

Agree BB. Going for a ride with my mates is a totally different thing, as then I am not leading the ride or coaching.

However, even then I have been told about the odd risk or two. So somebody must have carried out some form of RA, albeit a very basic one.

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