[Closed] Monday debate - Are some mountain bikers the worst enemy of the 'sport'?

Just because you weren't aware of it, doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

maddyfunster, do you think it's become more widespread in the last few years? I've always known of cheeky DH runs since I started riding, but in the SE there's more appearing IMO, it could just be my perception or the less subtle nature of them though.

Actually I don't have much of a problem with a bunch of kids building a few ramps in a little-used wood up the road as long as they don't endanger or hinder anybody who wants to use a public footpath or bridleway. The trail-building I have seen is done fairly discretely in un-frequented areas and at least they are getting out and doing something constructive for the benefit of themselves and their mates. I don't even view them as mountain bikers, more kids who like to jump their bikes over things. I occasionally see them trudging on foot up an easy road climb near my home, helmets hung over the bars and bikes too heavy to ride.

However generally speaking, I have become completely disenchanted with mountain biking. When I started from a mountaineering background in 1988 you used the bike as a means to travel in open country and cover big distances. Since then we've seen the appearance of trail centres, the massive growth in numbers and the marketing of mountain biking as a cool glamorous money-making sport. I began to question the whole thing when I got involved in informal clubs and found myself charging around the countryside with big groups of people who had no respect for country lore and who didn't have a clue how to study a map and work out an enjoyable legal route but viewed any trail as theirs to ride, who abused pedestrians and drivers, ignored the Highway Code and dropped litter and held up their club-mates because they were ill-prepared and ill-equipped. I tried a few trail centres and found them boring, repetitive and overcrowded, was shocked at the litter and the lack of consideration towards slower riders, the boorishness and egotism of a few riders and their lack of interest in the countryside around them.

So yes, the mountain bikers themselves have played a big part in my loss of interest and my move to road riding.

rkk01, the way bikes and riding have progressed is part of it. Progress is good, I don't think we're against that in any way, but I will say it has a negative side. I'm at a bit of a loss to say whether it's just inevitable that it will promote more conflict so it needs more active advocacy, or if it's a minority issue that I'm becoming more aware of.
But if i'm aware of it, others probably are too - like the guy who ranted at me calling me an 'ars3hole mountain bike who causes more damage to the chilterns than the HS2 will' while his wife filmed it on her phone on saturday - that's rare, but becoming more common. That, and the trail features, clicked loudly as a link that day. There's anti mtb idiots everywhere but maybe they have more ammo to fire now.

(globalti, there's still great expanses of XC for old-schoolers who like to be self-sufficient.. I hear some of what you say, but there's no reason to be put of MTB due to that side of it?)

muckytee - Up the main track from the Esholt car park, ok I'm talking probably 4 years ago now, but there was quite a bit of North Shore stuff that was in bits on the right hand side towards the top.

Its not safe to let your dog wander through stuff like that.

I understand from more recent commments on here though that it has now been rebuilt... for the next 2 years before it becomes unpopular again

globalti - Yep, pretty much where I was coming from.

Rather than being disillusioned with mtbing, I've reverted to local riding from the door. Lucky enough to live somewhere with country lanes, woods, fields, "mountains" and forest all in pedalling distance

I've seen the sort of behaviour the OP describes locally and it can be fairly appalling.

Yes comparisons between then and now can be rose-tinted, but seems that while cheeky trails used to be built by moving a few branhes and leaf litter and riding in a line, nowadays a lot of the FR/DH crowd start by skimming off the top layer of the soil and making a really wide track. Next stage is to build a load of jumps, usually with hidden pits top fall into because they can't/won't move enough earth from places off the line, and berm all the corners because of some preconceived idea of what a DH track should look like.

That said, the people building this sort of stuff devote a lot of time and energy to it, knocking the jumps down won't stop them, and complaining about it on a forum mostly frequented by older XC riders is the equivalent of putting an angry note in a bottle and chucking it into the sea.

Can anyone point me to a good place to start apart from IMBA (who I mailed this am)?

The Forestry Commission tend to be open-minded about rider-built stuff if it's done appropriately. It can depend on what region you're in or who you talk to, mind.

AlexSimon - Member

As an aside, I think it's interesting that one of the Peak District Bridleway descents (from A north to B here) has been moulded by (as I understand it) Peak Rangers to be more jumpy/flowy/burmy for bikes.

Since then, it's been tweaked a bit more (by them or by visitors, I don't know).

You think the Peak District National Park Authority has been deliberately adapting a track to make it more fun for mountain biking?

Is this more of a southern problem rather than a northern one?

The Forestry Commission tend to be open-minded about rider-built stuff if it's done appropriately. It can depend on what region you're in or who you talk to, mind.

unfortunately it doesn't sound that way here, but maybe it's worth trying again )

..Doesn't make it right for them to stick things on footpaths, but when they say to us "so where are we supposed to practice our skills and freeriding" nobody has an answer. The kids who are from wealthier families get taken to trail centres in the car with bike parks to practice at, but for the kids who rarely get out of the city and whose families can't afford to do that, they are more likely to be the ones building their own.

Don't get me wrong I'm absolutely not advocating people doing antisocial things and spoiling other's enjoyment I just know from my work with young people that they can feel frustrated that there is nowhere for them to do these things and no resources to help them do it safely and out of the way of others who may be annoyed by it.

I'm not disagreeing here and may sound out of touch, bear with me, but is it a case of mis-matched expectations and aspirations? Or a sense of entitlement rather than a make-best-of apporoach? I don't want to be teh grumpy old man, I'm not that old ) , but when I was younger a 15-40 mile round trip on a bike to ride good XC / DH was normal to us. As was riding to school. An older generation would go further for less from what I undersand. Now i see kids ferried everywhere, so I wonder if there's less of the can-do approach? I don't blame them btw - attitudes change between generations. Also making your own scene is an important thing when you're younger and a jump spot is a great scene to build. I'm interested in your opinion as someone closer to them than me, as I'm feeling like I should be acting on my general concern here. Local pump track, IMBA / FC etc.

[b]BadlyWiredDog[/b]

You think the Peak District National Park Authority has been deliberately adapting a track to make it more fun for mountain biking?

I do think you have a point there. The whole point of the youth forum in my area was to give some agency/ownership to young people and some responsibility for achieving the things they wanted and not just having it handed on a plate. That way if they wanted a jump track locally they could get the money, build it with some help and shape it into what they wanted.

I agree that our generation was different (I'm aorund the 30 mark). We used to happily ride off for the day into the countryside but most kids I work with would not be allowed to. Parents seem to be much more risk-averse. Lots of schools where I live have banned riding to school because of the problem of expensive bikes being nicked/trashed, as well as the safety issues of traffic round schools and inconsiderate idiots in 4x4's dropping their kids off and no consideration for speed or road markings in school zones.

Parents seem happier to ferry their kids almost 2 hours to a place like Dixons Hollow at Dalby so they can watch them do their thing and somehow it makes them feel better about the prospect of them having an accident than if they had an accident whilst riding with their mates in the local woods unsupervised.

I was actually at Dixons Hollow yesterday on a separate note and was disheartened to find adults behaving quite aggressively towards some of the kids there, not leaving enough time for the kids to get round the tracks in their own time and coming up behind them quickly, railroading them. Disappointed me - we should be encouraging the younger generation of MTB-ers not pushing them off the tracks because they get in the way of those who want to go faster.

This is one of the most interesting posts I have ever read on STW. Some interesting observations that I too have had but never commented on as I thought it was just me. Like seeing kids pushing bikes with full facers hanging off the bars along relatively flat roads. I always held the maxim "If you can't ride back don't ride there" I started MTB'ing in the late 80's and I guess if you've never being openly laughed at and pointed at by people as you ride past on your mtb wearing a helmet, I guess you would think that all the trails belong to you alone. One thing still bugs me though and it isn't the "yoof" it's the middle agers (although I am getting there myself). I regularly see groups of mtbers on nice expensive bikes when I am out on my bike and am amazed when they don't even look towards you to acknowledge you to say hello. Again I suppose this is due to being around when there was just me and a few mates and you rarely saw another mtber. As said on here its the price for the sport being more mainstream and heavily marketed I suppose. No community feeling anymore?

FunkyDunc - Member

muckytee - Up the main track from the Esholt car park, ok I'm talking probably 4 years ago now, but there was quite a bit of North Shore stuff that was in bits on the right hand side towards the top.

Its not safe to let your dog wander through stuff like that.

I understand from more recent commments on here though that it has now been rebuilt... for the next 2 years before it becomes unpopular again

My understanding is it was Yorkshire Water (who own the land?) who took it down and left the debris.

Current building up there is more natural/slightly more subtle - but there are still some 'gap jumps' that go across the main trail that comes out the back of the car park near Esholt Farm.

I've seen pictures of the riders taping off the track and putting spotters in place whilst hitting the gaps/drops, which whilst not perfect at least shows a sense of appreciation for other trail users.

The perpetrators in the OP will learn to be more subtle with their trailbuilding if their jumps in obvious places keep getting flattened.

It's a really great thing that there are so many young people riding bikes and being enthusiastic enough to build jumps.

If they're anything like me when I was young, they probably don't see it as a "sport", just what they enjoy doing.

That's what I was told. Of course, it's second hand information and I didn't physically witness them doing it, but I heard it from two independent sources. I'd be interested in hearing 1st hand info either way.

I guess Bruce, who posts on here as 'oldagedpredator' would know for sure, but I'd be surprised if the PDNPA was building jumps and berming corners on a bridleway - fwiw, the lower part of that track was always pretty much like that, though the middle bit was a mess of ribboned tracks that was had to pick a clean line through.

lmp- We can't do alot about risk-averse parents and the affect it has on the children, that's the world we're in. Problem I'm seeing is that risk-aversity is there in the landowners too.. easier to ban people / bikes than fear being sued.

Thinking about it, I can't remember the last time i saw a small group of 12-15yr olds riding anywhere but a DH / jump spot. Is that related to their view of what's cool (my guess) or not being allowed out for a day-ride like I used to (hope not, but maybe?). I know a friend who runs a shop all but gave up taking younger riders on XC trips due to insurance and liability 'red-tape'.

I can see how kids get despondant..!

If we assume / generalise that adults know better when it comes to digging in prominent places and see the reasons why young riders dig in daft places, answers / conclusions are forming.

If they're anything like me when I was young, they probably don't see it as a "sport", just what they enjoy doing

A valid point that I'd overlooked.. I was assuming they used myface.com etc and read MBUK but maybe not.
I'll admit I have in the past removed fresh earth+woodwork in places that really were daft, but it seems a less constructive way of directing people's efforts.

Thinking about it, I can't remember the last time i saw a small group of 12-15yr olds riding anywhere but a DH / jump spot.

I'm not just being contrary, but yesterday I met about five kids this age riding XC on a selection of crap bikes.

I got a little bit stoked.

🙂

mini-stoke for kids-xc )

jumpers for top-tube pads eh

If they're anything like me when I was young, they probably don't see it as a "sport", just what they enjoy doing.

I think there's some truth in that too....

XC riding doesn't have the same "cool" appeal as DH/freeride - some of them would see it as what their parents (and youth workers) like to do, and therefore very uncool! It worked the same for me when I was younger, my parents were into their cycling but it was touring bikes/hybrids and off roading for them was a canal path....when I was 11 I was determined to have a MTB and go off roading and I wouldn't have been seen dead doing the type of cycling they did! However I had mates to ride with and we just used to go off and explore.

And yes, it is also a health and safety minefield to take groups of younger riders out and get them enjoying the trails. Maybe if they did get a chance to see what's out there on natural trails and in the countryside they might see more appeal in it....

It's funny but I can't remember the last time I experienced user conflict or came accoss a shonky piece of questionable trail alteration. I ride a lot all over the country on numerous trails and would struggle to recall any poor behaviour. In my experience, most folk are more than alright but there is the odd exception in any walk of life who can't see beyond their own little world.

Last week when taking my daughter to nursery through Kelvingrove Park in Glasgow, there was a team of workies from the Council cleaning up the litter that was strewn across the park. Nice weather seems to bring out the selfish ejits who drop bottles, litter, fags, portable barbeques etc at their arse once they have finished with them. It looked like someone had emptied the bins over the grass and just walked away. It wouldn't surprise me if the same folk were the first in the queue to complain about the mess. The lack of common sense and general respect for the environment and other people is depressing.

Similarily, when climbing Ben Lawers with the bike the Sunday before, near the summit we passed a pile of curiously brown toilet paper on the path from An Stuc. Clearly, someone had succumbed to the need to poo in the open air but couldn't make it off path. Yeuch!

I guess the lesson is that there are tools in all walks of life. I can see no reason why mountain bikers should be any different. I guess it gives me impetus to be extra polite and smiley when out and about on my bike and prove that not everyone on a bike is a chump! 😀

sanny you're right on the tools point.. and a good reason to be cheery, agreed. unf for us bike-tools plus a ride in normal biker use can get us banned from an area in a worst-case situ, tools in parks and on foot (and cars, in pubs etc) are just the worst side of everyday people and not seen as 'minorities' that can be regulated in the same restrictive kind of way. I know it rarely comes to a ban, but the pressure is there and i think it can be more easily done by the FC / a landowner?

+1 OP

It has been going on since at least the mid 90s tho'. Someone dismantled a drystone wall on Longridge Fell back then to try and make a cheeky muddy trail (the one East of the trig point) more rideable and next thing there were No Cycling signs appearing at the entrance to footpaths.

The cheeky jumps in the woods were I live now have been abandoned as the youths have graduated to mini-motos through the crops cos its more extreme* innit.

* By "extreme" I mean, "easier to go fast by twisting a throttle instead of using legs and lungs". They are nice lads but lazy and thick.

as to middle aged storm troopers who drive like *ts on narrow lanes in their hurry to get to ride and then ride like *ts on shared paths - think you find more people have a problem with that type of behaviour than building jumps

Most young people i have met have been great chatting and out having a good time, build but not on the footpath.....30 ft away in the tress great.

Littlemisspanda..youth services cuts are truley terrible..

@littlemisspanda - you have seen Ali G haven't you?

as to middle aged storm troopers who drive like *ts on narrow lanes in their hurry to get to ride and then ride like *ts on shared paths - think you find more people have a problem with that type of behaviour than building jumps

agreed these people.....i passed a load same age as me mid to late 40s said hello and no response saw them later blasting down a footpath, rode a couple of miles and found them again to be asked did i have a tool kit as they has a puncture and no tool kit

IMO Trail centres have also attracted a different type of "intake" into the sport. For all the people I used to know who were into mtb (early 90s or so), it was an extension of their other "outdoors" sports - climbing, mountaineering, caving, canoeing, fell running even (almost no crossover with road riding

That background tends to come with an ingrained respect for the outdoors. A desire to go to the wilder places and to have minimal impact.

Today the sport is much more popular - with the yoof and the middle agers who formerly (prob still do) chase small white balls and wear Pringle jumpers.

On the other hand, blasting past a group of special needs hikers on a multi-use trail with full face helmets (where it's not needed) Traffic on that trail seems to have reduced and the only people I've seen down it in daylight hours lately have been the full-face brigade. I still use the trail after dark in the winter months when there is no issue with meeting anybody else on the trail never mind having any conflict with hikers.

Yes, I really think we should continue to demonise people who dress or ride differently from ourselves. The way I ride, the bike I ride, where I ride, when I ride what I wear and how I wear it all demarcate me as the one who is righteous. And I have obviously been riding the longest as well.

Does anyone else see a pathetic irony emerging in this thread? A certain type of mountainbiker attempting to pigeon hole every other type of mountain biker into groups based on assumptions drawn from how they dress ?

Meanwhile, on a rambling forum ......

When I was a kid 20 years back, everyone used to go to chertsey park to ride the jumps and berms and stuff there, sort of unofficial but tolerated jump spot. Every so often at that kind of place some busybody would come and moan at you, but it didn't stop anyone riding or building. That was on 10 speeds, girls bikes etc. I guess some kids have fancier bikes, but I dunno how much has really changed except for the size of the jumps?

@ nick - not recently no!

joemarshall +1

Did none of you lot ride BMXs? When I was a kid we wouldn't just dig jumps. We'd regularly 'liberate' materials from building sites (4x2, plywood) and (badly) construct the most dangerous and ill-conceived structures, then launch ourselves off them on our bikes.

The nice middle class kids a few miles up the road used to get their parents to use their influence on the local council to get them skateparks and stuff built.

This was just our equivalent

Mountain bikers are there own worst enemies, but they haven't got the sense to be anything but.

The whole cheeky trail thing is simply riding where you shouldn't; it may be stupid, it may be archaic, it maybe indefensible, but the flip side is worse.

Now people see any bit of land where they can ride as fair game for jumps and berms and so on, and this is making the problem into one of increasingly visible anti-social behaviour.

I walked around our local country park, which backs onto Access land over the moors, only to see tyre tracks ripping up the edges of a recently restored vegetation planting session designed to reduce the erosion at the moor edge. This is local riders, not kids, on big travel bikes looking for a thrill and not giving a crap.

"there is nothin round ere in Staines for us kids to do except..."

reels off long list.

neanwhile the lads next door I alluded to do not have a pot in which to piss but seem to find fun things to do to occupy their time without the need for youth services.

pathetic irony

joemarshall, very true, but if it's in one tolerated spot it's never an issue, there's a spot like that not far from Aston Hill and it seems to be accepted for now, it's the random stuff that crosses well-walked paths that I'm talking about.

I'm not sure if picking out a few stereotypes has much to do with this, we all ride so it's a problem for any of us where there's stuff built that is too obvious / dangerous etc. Riding it or turning a blind eye as I would makes me part of the issue to an extent. Woburn was threatened with closure, Cranham area has had a long process to avoid a ban, etc. It's not a new problem but the way it's publicised and reacted to certainly is changing.

How many on here do get involved with any access groups, or have any experience in this area to share?

Unless I'm very much mistaken, this photo (taken from the Cotic Rocket demo article on this very website) http://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/cotic-rocket-cleared-for-take-off/

[img] [/img]

Shows riders here

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=425475&Y=375637&A=Y&Z=115&ax=425478&ay=375637

A popular footpath in the busiest National Park along Curbar Edge. One could argue that journo's should be advocates of our sport and promote good practise, whereas these photo's published on what is quoted as being the busiest bike forum would suggest that they encourage the use of illegal trail riding. Perhaps the worst case of MTBers being our own worst enemies?

I'm not sure of the byelaws on this particular route, but riding a bicycle on a footpath isn't normally illegal, and in this case it doesn't look like they're causing any damage or any user conflict either. Well done on the detective work though, have a pat on the head.

I don't think it sets a very good example basically and as I know the area it jumped out at me as being a cheeky trail. Currently there are negotiations going on about the Management of the Moorlands and a lot of trail use is being considered ATM (whetehr that be MXers, bikes, runner, wlakers, birders 4x4s) - although this area is not part of the consultancy, talk of different users behaviours are being discussed at these meetings.

I don't hink this doe much to further our cause as responsible users. For a magazine and one of its journo's to be photographed doing this undermines our position as responsible trail users.

It's buried at the bottom of a bike test article, with no location given.

Publishing a picture of them riding a cheeky trail doesn't make them hypocrites. Recent articles on the site have acknowledged that cheeky riding takes place but asked people to be responsible in how they do it.

In my experience, the real damage is caused by persistent everyday use, obvious building work, or event organisers who don't do their homework and end up drawing attention to inappropriate bits of trail.

pieface, fair point and I may be a hypocrite here in a way, but to me riding a footpath is one thing, building jumps etc across / on it is another. Leave it as you found it and risk no-ones safety and cheekies are ok imo.

I ride footpaths with due consideration (careful about how and when, with who etc) as well as with a bit of contempt for our access laws in the UK. Remember how ramblers got any access at all in the first place.. and that issue's been intelligently discussed on STW already.

Now if they were building and riding a 3ft high booter across that trail I'd be the first to say "good skills.. but - oi! No!" )

We have to get back to the origanal post which quotes exsisting trails, footpaths, we have the exact same problem in our local forestry commision woods, in the last 15 years or so we have built up a network of natural trails using undulations that already exsist and just clearing leaves and dead wood and have a fantastic trail network that is low impact and the forest wardens turn a blind eye too and when the leaves fall these are covered and unless you are local you would never find them.
However in the last few years we have seen increasing digging of jumps and berms on some of the more known of these trails and the forestry do not like it and have becomes far less freindly to our cheeky trail building and it impacts on us all and in the end we will all lose our trails.
If you own the land build what the hell you like but when useing public land shared with horses and walkers and sneeky trails on private land keep the signs of a trail to a minimum and we will keep the use of our trails well into the future.

[i]One could argue that journo's should be advocates of our sport and promote good practise, whereas these photo's published on what is quoted as being the busiest bike forum would suggest that they encourage the use of illegal trail riding. Perhaps the worst case of MTBers being our own worst enemies? [/i]

What's bad practice about riding an empty trail mid week?

Have you read any of the access articles in the mag or on the site?

http://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/online-feature-access-all-areas/

http://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/access-all-areas-the-campaign-starts-here/

http://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/access-all-areas-a-rights-of-way-officers-view-part-1/

http://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/access-all-areas-a-rights-of-way-officers-view-part-2/

Original article has been discussed (fairly positively I've heard) at a few Local Access Forums now, why not take it along to your local one..

http://www.northyorkmoors.org.uk/uploads/publication/11350.pdf

Pinpointing cheeky trails on maps is far worse practice than riding them. Bravo.

I agree with [b]littlemisspanda[/b] when it comes to "[b]kids'n'jumps[/b]"

Also, encouraging kids to think that the "countryside" is somewhere they can have fun, and not just somewhere for middle aged folk* to enjoy the view, is a good thing. Built jumps on open trails do erk me I must admit, but then, that's more because that's not really my riding, rather than thinking the kids should only build their jumps on inner city wasteland. So, yes, building trails on footpaths does annoy me, but I think that I'm probably wrong to feel that way.

[i]
*why you looking at me?![/i]

Kelvin, I totally agree. But if the kids (grown up or not!) then loose access or get more grief off the 'oldies' when they go there due to the stuff they build, it's a downward spiral that discourages them from messing about in the woods as they should be able to. It's not about other riders being annoyed or not, maybe about how as a group we might encourage more sustainable messing about in the woods?

I haven't heard back from IMBA yet but in the meantime, I wonder how many local access groups there are with riders involved, also if the access groups prefer people not to be affiliated with membership bodies maybe there could be a forum for them to discuss and share experiences, direct focus etc?

(I am volunteering time on this, just unsure how to use it yet)

[i]I haven't heard back from IMBA yet but in the meantime, I wonder how many local access groups there are with riders involved[/i]

IMBA probably don't have the resources or structure to support an access network from what I've heard. I'm aiming to chat to CTC next week about their role and aspirations.