Like a Cotic Cascade

Second hand Pinnacle Ramin or Orange Speedwork?

Genesis longtitude if you can find one second hand, or a surly albeit they tend to hold their price so won’t be cheap.

Planet X bootzipper?

I’d be looking at something like a Kona Unit X. £1600 new and can take a dropper post and would also make a great bikepacking bike (almost typed rig by mistake then but quickly came to my senses).

I was originally looking at a Mason ISO and went for the Cascade as a cheaper alternative. I’m glad I did, it’s a great bike. I built mine up with flat bars as I’m not a fan of flared drops and it works really well.

Singular gryphon
Surly Ghost Grappler
Pipedream Alice

Same or similar adventurish drop bar MTB 29er but all in same ballpark price wise unfortunately

Cascade looks nicer than mason ISO imo, the bendy downtube looks wrong. The mason exposure though, that's lush

I’m looking at using Cycle2work so has to be a new frame. I’ve been trying to find several of those frames but by the time I add in a wheelset and drivechain, I’m close to the effective price of a new bike on C2W…

Isn’t a flat bar cascade basically just a 29er that’s not long, low and slack? A first gen solaris second hand? A Brother Big Bro?

Probably not far off there @swanny853
The Cascade rides better than my Mk1 Solaris did but that could be down to much better suspension, drivetrain and wheels.
Either way, it works really well as an MTB rather than a drop bar gravel bike.

A flat bar cascade is almost exactly a 2nd gen Solaris, yes, but they're rare and thanks to cycle2work discount a brand new cascade isn't _that_ much off the cost of a used Solaris, especially if I want to swap the fork to a rigid for lightness.

Titus Silk Road from PX, next time they roll them out at £999! Ti frame, rigid carbon fork, big tyre clearance, Sram GX and drilled for internally routed dropper. Bought mine for quite a bit more, nice bike

Second hand Pinnacle Ramin

I got gifted a 2014 ramin 5 frame a few years back. It’s an xl and the geometry numbers are all within a hairs breadth of a large cascade. It is set up with 29x2.25 mtb tyres and onone midge bars, and a 490 a2c carbon fork with internal lower headset cup to make it equal to a sagged 100mm fork.

Surprisingly nice to ride.

Marin DSX? Ours was nearly half price a couple of weeks ago.
https://flic.kr/p/2ofhSK5

Liked it so much I bought one
https://ukgravelco.com/cotic-cascade-review/
https://flic.kr/p/2ogoTjJ

https://devoncycles.co.uk/product/genesis-vagabond-2022/

Genesis Vagabond on sale for £1,500

I'm running my Cascade with on one OG bars at the moment and prefer it to drops.

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Although I bought the Cascade because I always thought about running my mk 2 Solaris rigid, with either flared drops or comfort bars. Then I sold it!.....

Kona Unit X. That's what I got for the same purpose, after trying a Cascade. Didn't like drop bars and wasn't willing to take a chance on getting used to them, and the geo doesn't work for me as a drop-bar bike.

All the right holes for full mudguards. If you want a rack on it, the rear eyelets are in odd positions so doesn't really work, so I put a Specialized Pizza Rack on the front. I have a 34T chainring on mine but might just about take a 36.

The budget option is the Frontier. The magazine reviewed a rigid deore build for a grand. With a price penalty they’ll do cycle to work scheme

Also look at the Brothet Cycles Big Brother and Bombtrack has some options too

Aye, fair enough, if they’re making them ‘properly’ now why bodge one?

I built by mk1 Solaris (inc slackset, so I think pretty close to a mk2) up with woodchippers and a random selection of spare/borrowed parts, partly out of curiosity and to see what a cascade-ish bike might be like like. It was fun, but I don’t do enough of the riding it was good for to maintain the faff of the bodged together road/Mtb gears. If I were keeping it that way long term I’d want to be really careful with the build as it would be easy to build something that was poor as a gravel bike and poor as a Mtb, but then that’s the niche!

Currently rebuilding it with some on one geoff bars for commuting out of sheer curiosity about a different kind of funny bar. Same tyres, gears etc, so interesting comparison.

@ads678 what length of stem are you running? When I enquired I was told 100mm with flats.

@squirrelking that's an 80mm stem I had in the spares box. Seems to work fine. But they're not 'flat' bars, they're swept back on one OG bars. I had Funn G-wide on there at first with a 60mm, 80mm with these seemed to get me in a similar position. I want a nicer stem (and fancier bars (and different colour grips, but they were £1.50!)) was thinking of getting a Hope xc which only come in 70 and 90mm. I think I'd be happy enough going with the 90mm.

It's trial and error though innit.

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Isn’t a flat bar cascade basically just a 29er that’s not long, low and slack? A first gen solaris second hand? A Brother Big Bro?

I was thinking the same. If you don't want to run drops, what is it that attracts you to the Cascade?

@ads678 yeah, sounds like exactly the hot mess I expected. As you say they're not flat but obviously sweep will make a difference.

I was thinking the same. If you don’t want to run drops, what is it that attracts you to the Cascade?

Well its

a 29er that’s not long, low and slack

A bit like an early Solaris. Makes for a nice rigid xc/gravel type bike. Having looked at the geo I bought knowing that I could make both drops and some form of 'flat' bar work, so could try them out and see which I preferred. I don;t think I'll be going back to drops on it now.

Cotic have helpfully now brought out the new Solaris which is not the Sloaris MAX, which I might have bought had it been out when I bought the Cascade.....

If you don’t want to run drops, what is it that attracts you to the Cascade?

Sensible geometry for road riding.

Comparing the Solaris to the Cascade, there's a lot of difference.

Theres a great looking Genesis Fortitude jsut come up on findthatbike, think its on Gumtree.

£350 quid. Looks great. Miss mine, one of my favourite ever bikes, ahead of its time.

https://www.gumtree.com/p/bicycles/genesis-fortitude-mountain-bike/1452287208

Would suit your brief perfectly, keep the rest in the bank.

Christ that's just 15 minutes up the road from me!

Not sure it fits my needs but could certainly check it out for anyone if need be.

@ads678, that's what I assumed, but I don't think the OP has specified yet (that's not their quote), unless I'm just loosing track of the thread

There are quite a few not-LLL bikes around as others have mentioned*, that aren't designed around drops, so asking for things similar to the Cascade I found confusing

I am also not saying that I think a flat-bar Cascade would be a bad idea -- I had an ALICE a while back that I nearly put flat bars on (and I would have only needed a 70mm stem)

*Brother Big Bro, Bombtrack Beyond+, Surly KM, On One Bootzipper, Genesis Longitude

I’m drop curious but not strongly opinionated either way. Currently deciding between blowing the budget on a Brother, or that Marin which is great value for money. Shame nobody has actual stock these days to have a sit on a few bikes first…

Depending on where you are, you’re more than welcome to give my Cascade a try if you want to try a flat bar one.

I'm in Cambridge, so I'm guessing not near.

I've managed to bury my drop bar-curious self by reasoning that there's a non-zero chance that I won't get on with drops but a zero chance that I won't get on with flats. The Big Bro is a nice looking frame but for the riding I'm planning that's a fair bit of cash.

So now I'm down to the Sonder Frontier or Marin DSX 2 and can't decide.

Most importantly: the brown DSX is surprisingly nice, and the green Frontier is lovely. That's a tie.

I can get the Frontier with 29er 2.4" XC tyres which should roll well enough. The DSX comes with 40mm gravel tyres (and clearance for 2.1") which will be faster but not as cushioned.

The DSX has a carbon fork. The Frontier has metal but more mounts for gear if I ever go bikepacking (unlikely).

The DSX has a Shimano drivechain, the Frontier SRAM. I have Shimano on my other bikes, but I doubt I can share pads.

The DSX has stupid silly narrow bars, but a On-One OG is a tenner right now.

Alpkit are a smaller UK retailer who I feel I should support, Marin are huge.

For my use case of "pootling around on gravel paths with the family, and occasional adventure-commutes to the office across the fens" my brain tells me the DSX is a better buy, but I do just like the Frontier. But do I just like the Frontier more because it looks like a proper mountain bike?

Oh FFS and then I see that the Sonder Camino comes in flat and drop versions and will take a 700c x 50mm tyre (or a huge 650b).

@rossburton I'm currently selling my Cascade in the classifieds. Based in Cambridge, let me know if you're interested.

I’m in Cambridge, so I’m guessing not near.

I’m actually up that way next weekend but sadly won’t have a bike with me.
The one in the classifieds looks like a good deal.

I was torn between the Camino and the Cascade before I went with the Cascade. I think I thought, even thought Cotic don't actually do a flat bar version, the Cascade would be better with a flat or comfort bar than a gravel bike....

Or more what I wanted rather than better. I think I wanted something with MTB capabilities that could take a drop bar, rather than a gravel bike that could take a flat bar. If that makes sense. I like the response, rigidity and twitchyness of a road bike and wanted to replicate that but with something that had moooore beef and capability off road.

I'm sure people can pull loads of holes in my thinking but what I've ended up with feels pretty good.

Then I see things like this and wonder.....

https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m11b0s143p4971/SPA-CYCLES-Titanium-Rove-Frameset

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I’m sure people can pull loads of holes in my thinking but what I’ve ended up with feels pretty good.

I know what you mean. "How rugged do I want my hybrid to be?" - I have a rigid 29er that's basically a really rugged hybrid more than an MTB by current average standards. But it's also just an evolution of my ATB from the late 80s.

I don't think bikes like this need to be drop bar-specific either. If you want to be stretched out like a roadie or XC racer then maybe flats on a drop bar bike aren't great, otherwise a drop bar bike like a Fargo can make a well-balanced off-roader with flat/alt bars on. You don't always need long reach on a bike.
Longer MTB frames with drops on rarely look like a good set up though.

A left field suggestions.. Stooge Scrambler or Mk5.
Modern geometry, lots of mounts, quirky looks and great fun to ride.
Various bikes & framesets floating around for less than a Cascade.

I went through a similar experience. I looked at the Sonder Broken Road, but putting drop bars and running it as a monster cross. The guys at Alpkit in Ambleside had done something similar with the managers bike, when I had a look at it it just didnt fit what I wanted (something cabable off road, but can still do some gravel rides).
Anyway, test rode a Camino Ti and ended up with one. Its an amazing capable bike that sort of sits as a bit of a gravel plus type of bike....(if you get where I mean).
Also, I love the look of these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255974843224?_ul=UK&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338353466&toolid=20006%26customid%3Ds%253AGS%253Bgc%253AEAIaIQobChMIqP_b5s6r_QIVtGDmCh0nEQcNEAQYAiABEgICcPD_BwE%253Bpt%253A1%253Bchoc%253A2&customid=s%3AGS%3Bgc%3AEAIaIQobChMIqP_b5s6r_QIVtGDmCh0nEQcNEAQYAiABEgICcPD_BwE%3Bpt%3A1%3Bchoc%3A1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqP_b5s6r_QIVtGDmCh0nEQcNEAQYAiABEgICcPD_BwE
Its a shame Orange stopped making them

I was gonna mention that Sonder do a flat bar version of the Camino for just over £1k but see that you've realised that.

I've recently ordered the GRX1 Camino (drop bar) on the B2W scheme with a few bits swapped out (upgraded the wheels, different saddle & Rival chainset, rather than the FSA that comes with it as standard).

According to the last e-mail I got, it's due to be delivered on Friday.

Unsure if it's adding anything to the conversation, but I'm on the third iteration of my Cascade's cockpit: I went with slightly flared 440mm (at the hoods) Zipp XPLR bars on a 70mm stem, then dropped to a 50mm stem with 500mm Farr Supa-wides, and now 520mm Ritchey Beacon XLs. The short-reach and crazy shallow drop of the Ritchey's together with the full, rather than shortened Supa-wide, hooks are a game changer for me in terms of long-distance hand comfort. n=1 and all that, mind!

I really fancied a Cotic Cascade but I've been told none will fit due to my stupidly short legs.

So pleased to see alternatives...

Drop me an email on Monday Jay.

I’ve been told none will fit due to my stupidly short legs.

The people at Cotic will let you throw a leg over one I'm sure, short or long legged. Especially now they have the new facilities/warehouse. Definitely have a chat to them before looking elsewhere

How short? I'm only 30" inside leg and the medium fits me fine.

It was Cotic that said they thought I'd not fit any of their bikes. They said reach would be an issue. Standover height is also an issue at 70cm/28in inseam. I'm 160cm tall. My arms actually aren't that short, I just have powerlifter proportions!

I probably should start a thread, rather than hijack this one. 🙂

Kona Sutra LTD go down to 48cm and you need to size down on them from experience (at least that was the case a few years ago). I’m 5’8” with 30” inseam and am on a 52cm. Very capable bike.

I've already got a Marin Gestalt. I fancy a steel bike and after going outside yesterday on my Marin (it's on an indoor trainer), something with brakes...this is an n+1 bike. Lovely bike the Marin tho, really good fit.

The Sutra is a steel bike @jay586? Admittedly not top drawer tubing but still rides well (been out on mine today).

Ah sorry, I think I was getting it mixed up with another Kona I saw recently. Will look as there's a dealer along the coast.