Forum menu
If it helps.. my schwalbe pro ones tl easy went up perfectly on superstar arc22 rims. No tyre levers involved and went up first time with a tubeless inflator. Didn't even need to seat the bead with a tube first either.
So far I'm loving tubeless road.
The thing is I've had tyres go on easy a few times too but it totally depends on the tyre/rim combo. And if they're tight, they're [i]tight[/i], and it's not the user's fault or lack of skillz or whatever, it's just a fact of the physical dimensions of the two components. eg. Schwalbe Ones onto A23: easy. IRC RBCC onto Pacenti SL23: snap tyre lever and willing to believe it is simply impossible to get the swines even over the rim to begin thinking about seating!
YMMV obviously but while I do totally love road tubeless and bang on about it to my riding buddies, I have always told them I wouldn't actively recommend it to them unless they were prepared for some potential serious faff that may or may not materialise 😉 I'm sure those who happen to have a decent combination would feel differently and say it's a piece of cake but having seen both sides it can be pretty damn frustrating!
Indeed I will! Shall keep the thread updated on my progress. Building straight pull wheels with round spokes will be the first challenge, can't even use my slotted bit of wood to hold them still!
I had the same when rebuilding some old Roval road wheels.
I ended up using some sprung mini plyers with gorilla tape in the jaws to grip the spoke before it was tensioned.
I also found tightening the nipples from the tyre bed side easier.
Is there some reason why you can't do the tried-and-tested way of overshooting by half a turn then backing off to avoid wind up? Always worked for me even with thin spokes like Sapim Lasers. I haven't read every post so don't know if you are using some sort of fancy nips...
Theres a lot of faffing expressed on our club website about sealing those tyres tubeless, and their relative fragility, worse still should you need to unseat then again and insert a tube out on the road.
The answer seems to be Vittoria tubeless.
Not sure how they are relatively fragile? Compared to a standard clincher they seem more armoured than anything, hence why they are usually heavier. It is true however that you may end up leaving a tubeless tyre on for a perhaps-perceived less amount of time/distance because there comes a point where you look at it and go "if that punctures I'm not sure it'll hold" due to nicks and cuts whatever, whereas with a clincher you'd probably just stick a new tube in and carry on.
After the first couple of nervous tubeless rides, I've never even bothered taking a tube with me and apart from one incident that would've killed any tyre I've never had a problem in over 20,000km on tubeless. A few spurts here and there where something's pierced and then re-sealed with no pressure loss which is always a heart-stopping moment but apart from that I am truly angering the puncture gods and will pay for this next time out 😉
Each to their own though, non-believers are generally very skeptical but I wouldn't go back.
Is there some reason why you can't do the tried-and-tested way of overshooting by half a turn then backing off to avoid wind up
Not so much wind up - there's nothing to just stop the spoke endlessly spinning. Sure it'll be fine.
Mildly nervous about the idea of insanely tight tyres now, perhaps the cheap Schwalbes were a clue!
Ah because they're straight pull aren't they... Knew I must've been missing something apologies. Never built with them but presume once you've got a little bit of tension in there they will bite onto the hub spoke hole sufficiently to stop spinning?
I vaguely recall you're near Reading MrBlobby? Seem to remember you mentioning TT's on the A33. If you want to try inflating them with my compressor drop me an e-mail, I'm only in Three Mile Cross.
Ah because they're straight pull aren't they... Knew I must've been missing something apologies. Never built with them but presume once you've got a little bit of tension in there they will bite onto the hub spoke hole sufficiently to stop spinning?
I'm hoping so! I've rebuilt straight pull wheels before, but always bladed, so you just hold the spoke still. I'll be going for the pliers and electrical tape method, sure it'll be fine. I'm expecting a bit of wind up in Competition Race spokes, but don't think it'll cause problems. They're great value, same price as Competitions, but virtually the weight of Revs.
Find a new wheel builder next time?
Good idea - or at least someone who will say to me: "what you are trying to achieve, with the bits you have, and your budget - is a waste of time"
N.b. I bought the rims, old spokes and hubs myself (as compete wheels) on the cheap from China in an attempt to get strong (enough)-light-cheap. And as usual, it didn't work. I'm reluctant to blame anyone else for my total idiocy!
At some point I may try again and try and fix the issue - but at least I've got wheels that work now.
Have I missed something in this thread - I thought straight pull with disks was a no-no??
The spoke will grab eventually but hold the spoke close to the rim on the inside and tighten from the top.
I use the park SW-15 or a screwdriver with a V cut into it to get them started.
Have I missed something in this thread - I thought straight pull with disks was a no-no??
You're probably thinking of radial lacing, rather than straight pull spokes, of which there are many off-the-shelf disc options around.
straight pull spokes/hub (but still crossed lacing) - fine for disc brakes
[img] 
[/img]
radial lacing (with j-bend spokes) - bad idea with disc brakes
[img] 
[/img]
radial lacing (with straight pull spokes) - also bad idea with disc brakes
[img] 
[/img]
Have I missed something in this thread - I thought straight pull with disks was a no-no??
Yep, as Amedias says, lots of SP disc options - Hope, DT, Novatec etc all do SP hubs. Plus many factory wheels too.
I use the park SW-15 or a screwdriver with a V cut into it to get them started.
Thanks, I've got a Park ND-1, so should be alright.
Thanks TINAS. Got an offer of using the compressor at LBS but if I need a compressor to seat a tyre then I won't be sticking with road tubeless.
Threw them together tonight, 1433g actual weight. Pretty chuffed with that given rims were actually 418g each, so hardly featherweight. Hopefully a decent all round wheel set though, rather than silly light. £250 all in.
Need to do final tension and true tomorrow, went together nicely though, had to re-lace the rear; asymmetric rim means shorter spokes on the DS, whilst front is same both sides, that'll teach me to assume!
Will take some pics shortly.
Got the tyres on and seated yet?
That's really light.
My Kings on 28h Grails are 1.7kg. Given the difference in hub weight is only 130g and the rims are, what? 70g (total)? Makes you wonder where the rest is hiding in my wheels.
njee20 well done. how did you calculate spoke lengths? Spoke calculator dont do striaght pull spoke normally. to work it out you normally have to do a cad drawing which is a PITA or guess (I can guess right). do you have another way.
To the stand grail rider your rims are heavier than the DT Swiss RR411's and your spoke may be heavier. brass nipples if used also add weight over alloy. The weight will be somewhere. The CK R45 disc hubs are also quite heavy for what they cost @440g/pair.
To the guy with the Kinlin XR200 rims and bitex hubs. your wheels fail because they are not stiff enough. when I built with the XR200 and I still do sometimes I do a 28 spoke minimum and stipulate a max rider weight of 80kg. A 24 spoke rear (I did one once for a youth racer) was too flexy and never built it again. the young rider was very light so not an issue. reuse the hubs but on stiffer rims like the Kinlin XR31T/RT.
Munkster the IRC/Pacenti combo is tight but doable. I have tyre levers that make it possible. it is tighter than the Kinlin IRC combo though but they do seat and seal with compressed air. The kinlin IRC or schwalbe combo is so easy it is a doddle (track pump is all that is needed) and they way it should be.
Th point of road tubeless is they should not unseat when the tyre is at low pressure allowing to to ride still. If they unseat then that is a problem only solved with CO2. Also the tyre can be fixed at the road side externally with worms and flexible superglue. I would never advise putting a tube in at the side of the road as it faff and not necessary. pretty much all but the biggest slash (which require a new tyre anyway) can be fixed quickly even if it holds only 40 psi max to get you home.
Also from testing stans sealant is hopeless for road tubeless. fine in #MTB tyres but at road pressure it fails. Effetto mariposa or orange seal are the best. I use effetto mariposa only now. it has not failed me yet. It also seems that some selants work better with some tyres than others. i have noticed the effetto sealant can sela bigger holes in the IRC tyres than it can in the schwalbes. I have no idea why.
The only issue with tubeless is the learning curve you have to go through. I have put a guide of the shop website and I know it works.
how did you calculate spoke lengths?
DT spoke calc does straight pull hubs, handy I was using their rims too, I wouldn't have factored the asymmetric spoke bed otherwise. Didn't actually measure the hub offset, just guessed it would be the same as a DT240 (or close enough so as not to make a difference), just measured flange widths.
I used alu nips, and only 24 spokes. The DT Competition Race is nice, barely heavier than the Revolution and only €0.90 in straight pull guise.
I used alu nips, and only 24 spokes. The DT Competition Race is nice, barely heavier than the Revolution and only €0.90 in straight pull guise.
Ah, that explains the difference. 8 spokes and brass nipples.
njee, done the tubeless thing yet?
I got the front done here. Needed stretching (or at least shaping) with a tube in it for a few days. Then found that the depressed tape in the offset holes in the spoke bed was allowing the air to blow out past the side of the bead when trying to inflate. A wrap of gorilla tape did the job and that's now seated and sealed.
Tried the rear without having had a tube in for a while and can get it partially inflated but won't hold much air past 40psi as it's not seated properly. Again just seems too tight and will pop in part way around but not all the way, resulting in a lumpy wheel. I'll let it sit with a tyre in for a while before i try again.
It's been a huge PITA in comparison to off-road tubeless.
Again just seems too tight and will pop in part way around but not all the way, resulting in a lumpy wheel. I'll let it sit with a tyre in for a while before i try again.
How far did you inflate it? I sometimes find I have to inflate past the "recommended" pressure (eg 120 or whatever) to get the tyre to properly seat first time round. Obviously at your own risk, no guarantee etc etc. IME if you've got it to seat mostly/somewhere around the rim you're way over halfway there and it'll seat eventually with a bit of oomph. YMMV as above.
Yup, 120 psi. Didn't really want to go much further. I'll leave it like that for a day or two, deflate and try again.
To the guy with the Kinlin XR200 rims and bitex hubs. your wheels fail because they are not stiff enough. when I built with the XR200 and I still do sometimes I do a 28 spoke minimum and stipulate a max rider weight of 80kg. A 24 spoke rear (I did one once for a youth racer) was too flexy and never built it again. the young rider was very light so not an issue. reuse the hubs but on stiffer rims like the Kinlin XR31T/RT.
That was me. Thanks for the advice and diagnosis, kind of what I thought!
Njee20: If it's not taking a liberty (it is a bit...) would you be able to post up a spec list (incl. spoke lengths) you used. Might copy your build....
Sure:
Rims are DT RR411 DB available from your friendly LBS.
Spokes are DT Competition Race straight pull 298/298 on the front and 298/296 on the rear. I bought from Bike24, they came very quickly.
I used normal 12mm alu nips, using the washers included with the rims. Mainly because I had the nipples in stock, and didn't want to buy the tool to use the 'Squorx' nipples they include with the rim.
Only weird thing was that I built them in the logical (to me) orientation of the rim - with the offset 'reversed' on the rear (so wide bit facing the non-disc side on the front and the disc side on the rear, but when I put some tension in the rear the dishing was about 10mm out, and it was going to end up with insane tension on the drive side to get it back. I rebuilt the rear with the offset the other way, so both rims have the 'wide bit' of the spoke bed on the RH side and they were spot on. Have to see how they feel, tension is pretty even.
Used a wrap of Stan's 12mm tape which didn't really cover the spoke holes that well as they're so far offset, covered with a layer of insulation tape. Schwalbe Pro Ones went on (they're tight, but not insanely so) and went up perfectly, using a Flash Charger, but I think they'd have gone with a normal track pump. Not ridden them yet, but they went together nicely (issues about offsets notwithstanding) and feel pretty solid. They're not my finest work, but hopefully won't fall apart!
[url= https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4408/35689679793_548f123aa7_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4408/35689679793_548f123aa7_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/WnLWoM ]Untitled[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/46244709@N04/ ]njee20[/url], on Flickr
[url= https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4437/36361001851_60999d5d66_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4437/36361001851_60999d5d66_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/Xp6D42 ]Untitled[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/46244709@N04/ ]njee20[/url], on Flickr
Tyres seem to be losing air over the course of a few hours - from 90psi to c50psi in 6 hours or so. I'm assuming that riding them will seal all the little pores and that, at the moment that's obviously not ideal!
Nice.
I'm about done with tubeless. Front is ok. Rear, I can now get the tyre to inflate tubeless but too tight to seat properly all the way around (I can't even get the Pro One's to seat evenly with a tube in) and leaks air badly between bead and rim. I think I've probably wasted more time on this than I've ever spent changing tubes in the entirely of my cycling life!
Cheers Njee!
I'm about done with tubeless. Front is ok. Rear, I can now get the tyre to inflate tubeless but too tight to seat properly all the way around (I can't even get the Pro One's to seat evenly with a tube in) and leaks air badly between bead and rim. I think I've probably wasted more time on this than I've ever spent changing tubes in the entirely of my cycling life!
Mmm, I'm worried that it solves a problem that never existed for me. I've never had an issue with tubes, I don't flat often, I don't want to run low pressures.
I'd have used the wheels to commute on yesterday but I wasn't confident they'd still have enough air in them at the end of the day to ride home! We shall see, I'll give it a go, but can see me reverting to tubes!
Mmm, I'm worried that it solves a problem that never existed for me. I've never had an issue with tubes, I don't flat often, I don't want to run low pressures.
Certainly the case for me. I'm regretting having ever started down the path.
I kinda figured it's only cost me a pair of tyres, and I can probably flog those for close to what I paid, so no huge issue.
Njee, how have you got on with the rims?
Can you recommend them?
Just about to sort my build out.
Thanks
Holy thread resurrection Batman!
Sorry, just searched out this thread for an unrelated purpose and saw your question.
They were alright, I ended up buying 'proper' tubeless tape, as the front kept slowly leaking, after which the tyres were perfect. I took them to the Alps, which is why I bought them ultimately and they were good. Made weird pinging noises while climbing, unsure if it was flex, or dodgy tensions or what. Did about 800 miles on them all in, and then sold them. They were still true, the dishing was still slightly odd on the rear, not 100% convinced by the DT spoke lengths. I'm sure they helped when riding up Alps (even if it was psychological, I'll take that), but they looked silly on my aero bike, I have a much lighter bike to ride in the UK when I'm not worried about cooking rims on the way down.
It was basically a cost neutral exercise though, about £15 net cost, so if I went back to the Alps I'd probably build another identical set!