[Closed] Let down by Merlin Cycles and SRAM

How did you pay?

Could always initiate a [url= http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/section-75-of-the-consumer-credit-act/ ]section 75[/url] via you credit card.

TBF, Fishers/SRAM are normally very good with warranty. There must be something in the way they've broken that's causing them to query the reason.

However, I thought that the law was on your side if they are still quite new (< 6 months???) and that they would have to come up with definitive proof.

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/forks-broken

[img] [/img]

What were you actually doing when they broke?

not paid on credit card was debit card. there not new only just inside there warranty. they have offered no proof just a photo copy of an inspect sheet saying they bent backwards which they didnt. After emailing for almost 2 months I'm just disappointed that they would treat a customer like this. they offered my a replacement price which was the same cost as any other website, when I mentioned this they said I'm free to purchase were I want.

scotroutes I came of a small drop but landed back wheel first the forks had more travel than the drop

Did you ever get the hi res photos?

Now that IS metal fatigue 😯

What hub do you run, and qr or bolt through?

I'd say its down to rotation for them to do that! Was anything loose?

Superglue and ebay?

If they were crashed, I'd expect there to be at least some damage to either/all of the lowers/stantions/steerer in the form of bending or alignment. If the forging of the crown has failed due to material or manufacturing process, then the rest of the fork should be fine (unless you crashed as a result of the crown snapping).

Ask Sram what evidence their conclusion is based on.

Edit: nevermind, just realised it's the arch that broke, not the crown. Probably harder to prove you were JRA.

no andy they have been travelling since then currently on there way back from netherlands so will get them up when I next see them.

Input from SRAM

Hmm, thats where the alarm bells ring for me!

TBF, Fishers/SRAM are normally very good with warranty

My experience too... hence I'd [b]guess[/b] the line goes like this

Merlin
OEM
Grey
No UK warranty
Not sent to Tech-Centre

Edit:

on there way back from netherlands

Aha - that sort of reinforces my opinion, A suspicious person would start stroking their chin and saying 'Jimmy Hill' about now!

I think the section 75 advice is good!

Get the photos up and we'll take a look before you go any further. Won't be definitive but should see something.

they were proper ones I believe don't think OEM but you can never be sure.

section 75 is out of the question due to me getting them on a debit card.

I have asked for the report from SRAM Netherlands and emailed citizes advice. The customer is always right is not something SRAM or Merlin have ever heard of apparently.

your contract of sale is with Merlin.

start small claims action.

I think I will wait for the response from citizens advice and merlin's next response but will read up on small claims as I feel I have been wronged.

your contract is with Merlin but I cannot see what you will do to enforce it.
They will just cite what SRAM have said in terms of the report and I am not sure how you would prove that it is certainly metal fatigue

If you paid via debit card, then you want to be doing this:

Invoking the chargeback procedure:

If you suspect your card has been used fraudulently, if the goods and services you bought with your card are faulty or if they do not materialise, then you should contact the bank who has provided you with your Visa debit card within 120 days, requesting they initiate the chargeback process. It does not mean you will automatically and immediately get your money back. It will initially become a ‘dispute’ in which the claim will be fully investigated by both banks before any money is returned.

http://whatconsumer.co.uk/visa-debit-chargeback/

they were proper ones I believe don't think OEM but you can never be sure.

er, what sort of packaging did it come in? OE stuff doesnt tend to come in logo'ed aftermarket boxes with proper manuals and accessories.

I am not sure how you would prove that it is certainly metal fatigue

more a case of them proving it was..

Jamie, its over 120 days and charge back only covers items under £100. thank though I've been doing a fair bit of research to try and sort this out.

As crashtestmonkey says; If they didn't come in a retail box with the correct label they're almost certainly OEM, especially if they come from Merlin and even more especially if they were 30-45% off 'SRP.'

Another way to check though; Fishers only import one model of Sektor RL with white lowers, they have this spec.

"Sektor RL - Solo Air QR White Motion Control Alum Str 1 1/8" Disc (150mm max travel)

Fishers code: RS8241001"

If your fork doesn't match this description it's definitely OE so not Fishers problem. If it does and it came in a proper box then it could well be legit aftermarket and very much Fisher's problem.

Your warranty contract however, lies with Merlin, they made the money out of you either way so go get 'em.

Bit confused why they did't send them to fishers - my missus RS forks from Merlin went there?? Sounds like they are grey imports if they went to the netherlands. Shouldn't change how it impacts you really. It's "only" the lowers - are they offering a crash replacement on lowers? It's a very quick and easy swap.

If something is not warrantied then the normal thing to do is offer crash replacement as good will.

I had some Manitou SX-Ti's snap at the brace many moons ago, a quick search on MTBR showed loads of identical failures, Answer fessed up there was production run with a casting defect and I got them warrantied. Have you researched to see if there have been other failures? Playing Devils Advocate but if yours is the first you'll struggle to convince anyone (Merlin, SRAM, CAB, court) that its [i]not[/i] your fault.

Manufacturers used to void warranties if drop-out-mounted roof racks were used as this subjected the forks to loads they they weren't designed for, so its not as simple as saying you haven't crashed them. A loose QR/maxle would allow for rotational forces on the legs under braking that would stress the brace, for instance.

Bit confused why they did't send them to fishers - my missus RS forks from Merlin went there?? Sounds like they are grey imports if they went to the netherlands

exactly what I thought.

If something is not warrantied then the normal thing to do is offer crash replacement as good will.

problem is, crash replacement prices are usually based on aftermarket rrp and might not be not cost effective (especially if the forks were cheap OE which looks to be the case). Before Answer actually warrantied my $500rrp forks they offered me a new set of lowers as a crash replacement for $200. I'd paid $199 for the forks....

they offered me full forks at cost price but when I mentioned that several shops were cheaper they basically said well buy from them then.

there still in warranty and they are that model you have just described mike well 15mm maxle but sektor solo air with white lowers. came in a rockshox box. might contact fishers to see what they say cant hurt

Bloody wizzards

ha true can't trust a wizard

Just a thought - but I like the executive complaint route for problems.

Do a google search / linked-in for CEO / Head of Marketing and any other executives you can find for SRAM (Merlin might also be an option).

Copy them all into a very clear email that summarises the issue - and explains that you have exhusted other options (and you can send copies of the emails etc).

Also direct all recipients to the negative feedback that is being generated on this forum.

Two things tend to happen with this approach - some one high up the foodchain delegates this to someone who will make you go away. Or someone from marketing steps in to stop you generating more bad PR.

If nothing happens - well you tried!

Can you be quite specific OP:

What forks?

SID or Boxxers?

How old

Only ever one race fitted?

What frame?

it says Sector RL on the brace hora?

Hora, it wasn't the crown it was the arch - as per the photo in the third post

Ah big apologies, thats what happens when you post from a ickle mobile.

OP, I also have Sektors and they seem quite 'delicate' (alot of flex). Should a heavy thus avoid? Weird considering their billing.

I would look into the small claims route and no, I wouldn't chalk it upto experience. That is a bizarre place for forks to fail.

hora - Member

OP, I also have Sektors and they seem quite 'delicate' (alot of flex)

Hah. My recommendation to you is to never ride a 150mm 32.

I had a go on someones- jeesus 😯 makes you wonder if that much flexing allows dirt to pop in/help the stanchion wear along 😀

LOL - slate a fork and conclude them as delicate cos of one user has a freak set. Come one now.

Have you spoken to SRAMTech direct? quote the produce serial number (on back of the crown) when speaking to them.

You did the Mr Nice Guy, so first geet your forks back and then issue a small claim against them.

Sorry but if you MTFU and go on the attack you will win, if wou keep faffing around and moaning, they will win.

to misquote a phrase 'that denial is useless without evidence' and 'must have' is not a known empirical demonstration of fact, so unless they can do better it is 'ollocks and response sould be'OK lets put it before a judge in (my local) court and see if he thinks I am a liar and believes your so called engineering analysis, or whether he thinks I am an honest punter and you have tried to fob me off'

You absolutely must get the forks back first.

Hi there,

well lets get things straight. You bought some forks, used them and they broke. You initially said that you had a soft landing so you will agree that the forks have experienced some trauma.

SRAM say that they will not honour the warranty as they have been crashed. Or experienced trauma.

The first thing I would say is that forks should be designed to experience a certain level of trauma. So the question relates to just how much trauma your forks have experienced and whether the forks should have withstood this.

Incidentally do you still have these forks in your position?

So the first thing we must do is establish whether there are any other physical sighs of crash to the fork. Gashes, missing paint dents etc? if your answer is yes then it could be reasonable to say that they have been crashed. If the answer is no, we probably cant blame the damage on a crash and perhaps should look deeper. Again if the answer to this question is no than there is no way that SRAM can categorically say that your forks have been crashed.

I would say that in general your forks will not have been looked at someone who knows much about the materials and the processes employed. I would guess that they are some customer service guy or rep whose default response is to refuse. (I generally find that people who work for bike companies are not that clued up). Anyway, its unlikely that they will have been looked at by a metallurgist and a failure investigation done. Particularly if the forks are still in your possession.

So whats next. if there are no other marks on the fork, we will never know the level of trauma the forks have seen. So we have to look at something else. We should investigate the materials. This will involve looking at the two fracture surfaces in some detail.

So the question is has this been done?

To be fair from the fracture it's be fairly obvious to someone with a bit of engineering training whether the fault is from the manufacturering process or not and the forks if they have been returned to SRAMTECH either here or in europe should have been looked at by the workshop manager who would have a good idea on this.

Again if the answer to this question is no than there is no way that SRAM can categorically say that your forks have been crashed.

I refer you to an earlier post of mine - abuse/misuse doesnt just mean crash damage.

We should investigate the materials. This will involve looking at the two fracture surfaces in some detail.

So the question is has this been done?

Who's going to pay for that? Do you think for a second it will be cost-effective? Before I had a total career change I was a materials scientist and a primary function of my role was to investigate failures (and alleged failures from dubious claims) for a multi-national manufacturer of steel and alloy products. A couple of hours of my time was worth far more than the cost of a pair of Sektors (my dept used to cost my time at £750 for half a day).

Crashmonkey, as a materials bod, would you say that a fault with the casting would be fairly obvious as air gaps, impurities, faults at the point of the break would be relativly easy to see?

if they have been returned to SRAMTECH

...do we know for sure they were sent and Merlin didn't just sit on it for a couple of weeks ?

A few years ago I had a new component fail on it's 1st ride and Merlin were not too helpful / didn't believe it 'just happened'. They sent it on to someone (can't remember who) to be assessed and after a couple of weeks of me chasing them they still refused. I have my doubts that it was sent anywhere but I might have been placated if they had even offered a discount on a replacement (but they didn't).

What can you do ? Well I usually avoid shopping with them especially on anything I might expect warranty help with in future and now and again I have a whinge on a thread 😉

FWIW i once saw someone arguing about a pedal in there and saying it just failed.
I am no expert but it was bent , the pins were bent and it has a huge impact gouge and he still insisted it was damaged.

I suspect they [ all shops tbh]get their fair share of chancers so may err on the side of caution.

get on social media #bashtag
get the US HQ involved

Fubar, I wasn't suggesting that.

I'd honestly suggest speaking to SRAMTECH UK and see what they say as they'll be have dealt with them. No point in getting all het up until you've spoken to them, as I said previously.

TBH, if there's any doubt over use/abuse with no obvious signs, then I think as a Product Warranty Manager, I would take one for the team and replace the lower legs FOC if for nothing else than a sign of goodwill.

As a customer, if I'd have been treated like the OP, assuming he's telling the truth, then I'd go out of my way to buy from anyone other than the manufacturer in question again, and also tell anyone else not to buy from them also. All that for what is probably a $20 part at Srams cost.

Take a look at the way Hope sort things out. If you have a broken part, no matter how it occurred, they replace generally FOC or at worst case, cost. This generally results in a happy customer and repeat business, even if it's their fault the part failed.

Stuff breaks, it's how companies deal with it that mark them apart.

We deal with Sramtech/Fishers on a daily basis and the warranty service is pretty good tbh.
Agreed Hope are amazing with their product support too, all my bikes have their kit on.

LOCO its the internet shuttup with your useful and informed advice based on working in the actual industry in this actual area. Pfft some people 🙄

We dont want to hear from experts now shut it unless you get with the programme which is

wee and bombers

Its basic internet stuff this now back to the day job for you

To be fair from the fracture it's be fairly obvious to someone with a bit of engineering training whether the fault is from the manufacturering process or not and the forks if they have been returned to SRAMTECH either here or in europe should have been looked at by the workshop manager who would have a good idea on this.

Loco, this is simply not correct. You must see the fracture surface to determine whether its a materials or process problem.

Who's going to pay for that? Do you think for a second it will be cost-effective?

Crashtest, well this is a good point. What you suggest is that no one with the right knowledge has looked at this because of the potential cost involved.

LoCo - Member
Crashmonkey, as a materials bod, would you say that a fault with the casting would be fairly obvious as air gaps, impurities, faults at the point of the break would be relativly easy to see?

He did say you had to see them which you confirm he later explained what to look for

thanks for every ones response some useful information on here. they are still on there way from SRAM TECH in Holland apparently.

the oridginal responce from SRAM TECH

"I’ve reviewed this case after talking to the technician who made the assessment & find no reason to reverse the original findings.

This case is not one for warranty, damage to the upper tubes, the arch & presence of paint flaking & bending to both the arch & the upper tubes is indicative of an impact causing this. It may not have been caused by the small jump the rider took when the break actually happened, but it has happened at some time."

there is no damage to upper tubes there is to the arch that's snapped, the paint flaking is from after the arch snapped as the forks flex alot without that arch been there turns out that's very important to the structure,and no idea what the bending was about as the legs are very straight.

I will post hi res pics when they return as they are in excellent condition.

If I had crashed them I would accept they broke and get on with my life but I didn't they just snapped.

Well, in a way, that's good news- they've been very clear that the stanchions are bent. If they are, then well, game over for you frankly. But if they're not then it shoots them down. And it's a fairly easy thing to check/get independantly checked.

Blazin-saddles - Member

Take a look at the way Hope sort things out. If you have a broken part, no matter how it occurred, they replace generally FOC or at worst case, cost.

Which is good. But then it breaks again, which is less good. And then they release a new part that fixes the problem, but refuse to replace your badly designed part. Which is less good.

hmmmm.

Right here's an idea....

This is now in a public forum and a lot of people will have seen it, negative brand impact and all that, thing is I don't know what to believe, even as a loyal RockShox customer and dare I say it even an advocate this worries me... but I want to believe the hard done to little guy..

Dilemma;

Is the OP lying and trying to leverage the internet as a way to get a replacement unfairly....?

or

Is SRAM making faulty goods and trying to cover it up,and fob off a genuine customer....?

From a forum it is impossible to tell which is true so maybe it's time for a independent to test the claims and whoever is wrong picks up the cost and the shame??

parling game?
SRAM game?

As Northwind says the allegations of bent stanchions and shedding paint are pretty stark and easily verifiable/disprovable. Has the OP rolled the stanchions on a glass sheet to establish there is no bend, or just going by eye?

negative brand impact

Hands up who's been put off buying a SRAM product as a result of this? Anyone? Heard other examples of their forks, Sektors specifically, failing at the arch? No? Last recall I remember for RS were the bottom-end Jetts in about 2001.

would you say that a fault with the casting would be fairly obvious

it COULD be macroscopic (bloody great void), a professional would be able to infer certains things from the fracture surfaces (a single break or a slowly propagating crack from a defect that has then expanded quickly after reaching a certain length) but it is likely to be microscopic.

Your best bet for an independent would be to find a metallurgy/materials student (pre or post-grad) who is into cycling and may be able to access equipment at no cost as a personal project with their supervisors blessing. Sadly (in this case) my lab days are behind me.

As a long-term advocate (read: fan-boi) of Merlin's customer service, this thread makes interesting reading.

I'm quite bad at Mountain Biking..... so I crash a lot. But even with my history, I'm struggling to think of how any sort of crash could snap the arch of a fork (particularly an 150mm "AM" type fork) in half?

Surely, even if you managed it, the rest of the fork would be so completely mangled (stanchions at right-angles?) that it would obviously be the result of a crash?

Is it me? Am I just not crashing hard enough?!?

I N R A T S but:

1. just because there's not physical sugn of trauma (dent scratch etc) doesn't mean they've not been ridden beyond their design parameters.

2. I'd have thought the SOG legislation is on your side here - newish product fails unexpectedly.

3. How can SRAM/Merlin prove they've taken a hit? They have no clue what riding you have done - only you have evidence of that. Unless they have some EVIDENCE like a report on the damage then I'd say you have a good chance in court albeit that's risky, time-consuming and potentially expensive.

4. Who was that guy that sold some cracked forks here saying "they are not under stress where the crack is so it's not a problem"?

Tiger6791 everytime I had a fork repaired at Fisher/Sram the words were 'it wasnt faulty but we replaced the cart anyway' Eh?

Or 'You turned the compression dial one click too far thats why it seized/broke'.

Eh? Sat on bike, forefinger/thumb pressure- give over. Its a design flaw that ruins the moco surely

My impression was there was never a faulty item but FOC. Whereas windwave handsup/sorted asap.

Or 'You turned the compression dial one click too far thats why it seized/broke'.

Are you going to tell me you've broken that damper Mark? 😉

Loco, this is simply not correct. You must see the fracture surface to determine whether its a materials or process problem.

Perhaps that wasn't clear enough, of course you need to see the surface of the break, I wasn't suggesting it was to be done by remote viewing or something 😉

Nah t'was a Lyrik damper. The (high?) speed blue compression dial ages ago- turned it full anti (?) and it stuck solid.

Thought I was about to get a mail saying the 'new' one was stuck 😉

Is the OP lying and trying to leverage the internet as a way to get a replacement unfairly....?

or

Is SRAM making faulty goods and trying to cover it up,and fob off a genuine customer....?

And this is why most companies with exceptional customer service would replace the part anyway at their cost, it gets the customer back riding on their product and customer has a good story to tell about Rockshox. As it is, for the small cost of a replacement part, he is feeling let down and probably won't buy Rockshox again.

It's their word against his, they say he's damaged them, he say's he's not.

I'm afraid the customer is going to loose out though. My friend had a pair of Rockshox Sid XX 29, he treats his bike like a baby, after every ride cleans it to within an inch of its life, he rides like a bit of a baby too, hardly ever crashes and isn't at all rad. The XX's stopped working over the winter of not being used, wouldn't compress much at all as if the lockout was on, he sent them to Fishers via the Sram dealer and they refused warranty, saying the stanchions were 'kinked'. There's no way he could have damaged them like that IMO but either way, they bombed him out and he needed to buy a new CSU, at around the cost of a new pair of forks from Merlin ironically. He bought some Fox instead!

Thought I was about to get a mail saying the 'new' one was stuck

Self fulfilling prophecy in action 8)

...anyway, as for:

And this is why most companies with exceptional customer service would replace the part anyway at their cost, it gets the customer back riding on their product and customer has a good story to tell about Rockshox. As it is, for the small cost of a replacement part, he is feeling let down and probably won't buy Rockshox again.

RS can take that hit, unlike their forks*, though. So why should they? Although, something here definitely does not add up, and it appears someone is being liberal with the truth. Who? God knows.

negative brand impact

As per Crashtestmonkey's post above, SRAM won't go bust over this. Also, Merlin quite wisely never get involved in these threads. So eventually it will just drop off the front page, and everyone will forget.

Shame for the OP, though.

*allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly

Thought I was about to get a mail saying the 'new' one was stuck

I'm not that bad a mechanic. Theres nothing much to go wrong on that DNA.

Theres nothing much to go wrong on that DNA.

(I generally find that people who work for bike companies are not that clued up

😛

Last time I had to return something to Merlin, it was a bit outside warranty and they fixed it FoC anyway (Reba seals went). I'd be surprised if they were avoiding their responsibilities given my experiences with them.

Not read the whole thread so apologies if this has already been asked:

Have you taken these forks on a plane, i.e in a bike bag etc to the alps or anything?

If I'd done that to a pair of forks by crashing I reckon the only thing I'd be worried about right now was getting my face fixed! 🙂

Wouldn't anything that caused those to fail in that way have totally ruined the wheel?
How can that failure happen through "stress"? Twisting, separation both would wreck whatever was attached to the bottom of the forks.

An over-stressing could occur if the leg was caught (when the wheel was not in place) and pulled outwards. This happened to a bike on a plane once, it had evidently got caught on something and pulled and the brace snapped, hence why i asked if it had been on a plane. It could have been pulled to a near failure point and then it would only take a smallish impact to initiate failure.

TBH there would have been SOME greyness for the SRAM tech.

What would it have cost him to simply pick up a set of lowers from his facilty and stick them in? I doubt the stanchions are bent. IF they are surely he'd have a CSU knocking about too.

Abit tight of them. Its a very weird place for a fork to fail. That 'weirdness' should at least afford alittle goodwill.

Merlin customer service was very poor when I returned an expensive pair of (altura) shorts which just fell apart a couple of years back. Not just the fact they weren't replaced but the manner in which it was dealt with. Had just started browsing their site again for forks but will think twice now. Have always had good experiences with fishers warranty though.

Tricky one really, can see the reasons why both sides think the way they do - doubt there's much you can do apart from going through the courts and then it would be your word against the word of their service department. How far did you ride once they'd snapped? If the uppers are slightly bent surely that could happen JRA with a snapped brace rather than had to have happened at the same time as the brace failed indicating a massive impact occurred.

A friend of a friends forks snapped in the same place while we were out riding a few years back. He clipped something solid while bombing down a track at Dalby. From memory there was not much sign of other damage.

Saying all that, wouldn't be suprised if the forks Merlin sold you were less then perfect. I've been told they sell seconds as well as OEM stuff. Think this was the case with the Rev's I bought from them a few years ago. Had a right going on to sort that and get my money back, they were a pain in the arse and the customer service was rubbish. I wouldn't spend a lot with them now and it put me off RS. They're cheap for a reason I guess.

OP - buy a Cannondale, fit one side as a Lefty and keep the other as a spare.

I've been told they sell seconds as well as OEM stuff.

have you [ or the person who told] you any actual proof

SRAM service were also terrible when my Reba's went belly-up after only about 2 months use from new.

3. How can SRAM/Merlin prove they've taken a hit?

Cynic-al, if you [i]had[/i] read all that sh1t youd have seen SRAM saying the stanchions are bent, indicating a crash/impact

I doubt the stanchions are bent.

You haven't seen the forks, the SRAM tech has 🙄

IF they are surely he'd have a CSU knocking about too.

Yeah they probably do have a CSU lying around, but then they'd effectively giving an entire new fork (CSU + lowers!) to someone who is trying to make a warranty claim on something they believe has been crashed

That 'weirdness' should at least afford alittle goodwill.

goodwill towards someone they believe is trying to have them over? Would you show that goodwill?!

I'm not against the OP or some SRAM fanboi, just trying to play devils advocate and manage his expectations. They have recieved a set of forks for a "JRA" warranty claim, with an unusual failure they possibly haven't seen before (and would expect to have in the case of a manufacturing fault). They have inspected them and found what they consider clear signs of damage. They have offered the OP a crash-replacement, so turning the other cheek to what they believe is a fraudulent attempt to claim new forks, and have been turned down as, thanks to the low price of mail order OE-overstock, the crash-replacement price is not competitive.

Do they still sound like corporate monsters now?

Giving the OP the benefit of the doubt I'd be just as p1ssed off in his position, but SRAM have explained why they think the forks have been damaged and offered verifiable/disproveable evidence. If the stanchions aren't bent then the OP should be livid, if they are then he hasn't got a leg to stand on. Simple enough to check.

Junkyard - lazarus

I've been told they sell seconds as well as OEM stuff.

bloke down the pub type claim - wise to say you have been told as to claim it outright would leave you open to suing for your statement- must remember than trick.

have you [ or the person who told] you any actual proof

I was told that by some one on here or on retrobike when I was having trouble with my Revs. Feel free to find the thread. It made sense to me as the forks I bought as 'new' had defects that looked like they happened when built. The pair that replaced the originals were the same. I showed the defect on both pairs to Merlin and they replaced the first pair then finally refunded the full amount on the second. This means they accepted the fact the forks were not perfect.

Why would OEM kit be defective? Of lower quality yes, but defective?