[Closed] leaving young children in the house

biggest thing to cramp our style is being in the sticks and not being able to get a taxi, the latest time we can leave from a night out is about 7:30 when one of us packs up the kids in the pyjamas and drives to pick up the other. Wouldnt dream of tucking the boys in and heading out of the house for an hour. They're 5 and 2.

I would report that behaviour to social services.

This is a rare "DrP being serious" moment, BTW.

DrP

She and her husband are stupid and irresponsible, but it isn't your business to cross into her personal life and especially to bring it to work.

To young to be left

As her line manager, what does her child care have to do with her work?

Yeah, I probably wouldn't do it, but as a child I was often left home alone from about 7 up.

wasnt there a doctor couple did as such in the press recently ?

wow. Really ? She leaves a 5 and 2 year old by themselves?!

Kryton is right, its not your business as her manager, but still, could you live with yourself if her kids died in a fire or something?

Illegal and immoral. Disgusting in fact. Where to start...house fire, burglary etc etc.

I’d keep out of it. You can’t speak to them in a professional capacity and getting SS involved may not help the kids.

wasnt there a doctor couple did as such in the press recently ?

In Portugal? As I recall all was rosey.

Strikes me as crazy, if you feel a duty it's nothing to do with the fact you're her line manager, don't make it about work.

nosedive - they'd already mentioned it to her at the party - my interpretation of what the op is asking it that he bring it up again, formally in the office.

She's been flamed publically already, her call.

it's irrelevant that you're her manager and not soemthing that you shoudl raise at work.

Do contact the child protection team at your local Social Services/Police though.

it isn't your business to cross into her personal life

Sorry, but when it's the potential welfare of a 3yo and a 5yo, it is our business.

Whether I'd call social services is a different matter, but I'd be letting her know (as a human being, not a friend or a boss) that that is not acceptable, and that if she doesn't sort it out then I wouldn't hesitate to report it.

Has she heard of something called "baby sitters"
It's what they are for!

Email her this link next time you're at work: http://www.findababysitter.com/
FFS some people are idiots.

[img] [/img]

Wow just wow.... someone from social services deffo needs to have a word with them both, their attitudes to parental responsibilities are way out of what can be considered acceptable.

(Dad of a 5 and 7 year old)

I am her line manager and intend to speak to her again about this

Thats implies to me that you would bring it up at work "as her line manager" as her line manager what she does out side of work his her business.

As a parent, they are too young to be left alone. I think i'd be asking her if they where ok when she got home.

Back in the day, my folks lived on a street where a number of young families with young children were neighbours and friends. When there was a 'do' at one of the houses, the children would all be tucked up in their own beds and the parents would go to whichever house the 'do' was at.

Every half hour or so the dads would take it in turns to go round all the houses and check all the nippers were okay/asleep. No harm came to anyone.

Just sayin', like.

Thats, frankly, ridiculous.

Though there's clearly nothing that's a work related issue, other than the fact that I'd suspect nobody will be willing to trust her with anything, or possibly even talk to her, ever again.

I have no doubt that I'd be telling social services.

Interesting how strong the opnions are on here, as someone without kids i dont quite 'get' the fuss being made. I suspect having kids changes your mind pretty quick though!

I was left for short periods probably from 10 and would agree with the OP that its a bit out of order that young. Would have left it as her business though

bit different from being out of the house for an hour and up to 30mins away.

Once - just once - my wife had to go out for work and i was late in because of traffic. My wife was on the phone to me right up to where she left the house by which time i was about 2 mins away. My two (aged 6 and 4 at the time) were left in alone for those 2 mins and that felt wrong to me (what if I'd had an accident, been stopped by police for a routine check, etc.)

titus - I think there's a huge difference between leaving kids for a short while and/or having somebody checking up on them regularly - and leaving them on their own to go out for the evening at that age.

There is no legal minimum age below which it is illegal to leave them at home on their own. It is only if doing so puts them at risk that it becomes illegal.

http://www.nspcc.org.uk/help-and-advice/for-parents-and-carers/parenting-advice/home-alone/home-alone_wda90761.html

I wouldnt leave my kids alone though.

As for you being her line manager - what does that have to do with anything outside of working hours.

short periods (10-20mins) I would probably not argue with, especially if you are no more than a minute or two away.

Being 30 minutes away by car is too far to be able to respond to anything.

Way too young.

I didnt leave my girls till they were 14.

I was planning on speaking to her outside of work. I appreciate it is not work related and because I am her boss I did not say much to her yesterday and left it to the others. I have thought about calling social services but would be uncomfortable doing so. As a parent I also feel uncomfortable doing nothing.

Way too young. What if a Golden Eagle got in?

Madeline McCann

Just wrong that is. Not sure about reporting her - I'd be giving her a slap and telling her to get a grip!

Too young to be left IMHO. Wouldn't leave our 5 yr old home alone.

While leaving them on their own is both stupid and I think even illegal? (Is it? - certainly seems pretty negligent)

However I'm not sure it's a line managers role to pick up their subordinates on their parenting...

The only way it is perhaps within your area of responsibility as her LM is if it's within your power to adjust her working hours/commitments to accommodate child care, perhaps ask if that is something useful you could do to help, a lot of families struggle with this sort of thing and employers are supposed to help where they can, try taking that line perhaps...

But yeah, My missus would beat me to a pulp if I left either of our kids unattended...

As for reporting them to SS? calm down folks, they perhaps just need a bit of friendly guidance on making appropriate childcare arrangements.

If they are constantly and willfully negligent then inform the authorities.

But it just sounds like they just need a bit of a wake up as to what can happen to a child if left unsupervised even for short periods.

(10 months & 3.5 Years)...

...but it isn't your business to cross into her personal life...

The duty of care lies with the children.
[b]Everyone's[/b] duty of care lies with the children.

It's likely that nothing bad will happen, but the fact she regularly does it makes that chance higher...

In all high profile child abuse cases, the abuse happened because a bit of knowledge was known 'here', and a bit 'there', but NOTHING was pieced together. See Victoria Climbe etc as the 'perfect storm' example (a [b]taxi driver [/b]eventually made the report)

TBH, I don't really give a $hit about what 5" travel bike you lot need for the Surrey Hills, or how you're repainted your frames, but [b]this[/b] type of post is where we can really make a difference to life.
Seriously.

Child abuse isn't always hitting and smacking.

DrP

if social services get involved there is a chance her children will be taken away from her.

I have 4 and 5 year olds. I'd never ever leave them but unless you know her full circumstances and rationale then don't go reporting her and potentially starting a chain of events that could tear her family apart and have long term negative consequences for the kids.

jesus, I thought my ex is irresponsible for allowing our extra sensible and mature (for her age) 11 year old daughter let herself in after walking home from school and seeing to herself for 1.5hrs, this couple take the piss.

I bet if it was a question on Family Fortunes it'd get a ping next to it for being top answer!

I never cease to be shocked at the STW standard response of "dob 'em in" when someone has a quandary. HOWEVER, this is a whole order of magnitude away from "my boss has a sneaky joint at work, what do I do?"

Please, please, please report this to the relevant child protection team. This is serious neglect. Those children are clearly at risk. Not a theoretical, eagle-might-swoop-in-the-window risk. Real, serious risk of harm exists here. A quiet word is not enough.

if social services get involved there is a chance her children will be taken away from her.

Very unlikely. You have NO IDEA how hard it would be to get her kids 'taken away' even if I said "she's putting a fag out on the kids face as I speak".
What they will do is keep information on file, and may speak to the mother. And if another person reports something they will keep that.
It's the collation of information in these cases that's important.

DrP

if social services get involved there is a chance her children will be taken away from her.

And if kids that age are being left alone for hours at a time unattended then, sadly, that might be the best course of action for their welfare.

BTW, if anyone's understanding of how, when and why social services remove kids from homes is based on the portrayal in Eastenders, it really isn't like that. Removal would be a last resort, not a first response.

PMK - you're stuck between a rock and a hard place with this one. like everyone has mentioned it has nothing to do with her work so would be inappropriate of you to bring the subject up at work, but if you were to discuss this with her outside of work then that's for you to decide but you probably wont agree with her response as she already seems to think its perfectly acceptable to do this.
as a parent i would never dream of doing this myself, and like you i would feel like something needs to be done if i knew someone else was dong it.
she's already been publicly grilled by your colleagues about this and hopefully will realise this is unacceptable, but if she doesn't then she would only have herself to blame should, god forbid, anything serious happen while they were both out.
as for getting social services involved, normally you would do that if it was a complete stranger, but this is someone you know, even if it only in a professional manner. this is a classic child protection issue, and in circumstances like this the parents would end up most likely getting prosecuted for child neglect, and social services would take the children away for the short term at least.
this is a tough one and i'd hate to be in your shoes right now as its hard to determine the right course of action....its the kids i feel sorry for.

if social services get involved there is a chance her children will be taken away from her.

I have 4 and 5 year olds. I'd never ever leave them but unless you know her full circumstances and rationale then don't go reporting her and potentially starting a chain of events that could tear her family apart and have long term negative consequences for the kids.

This.

I don't have children and I certainly don't agree with children being left alone at this age. But, I feel that by getting social services involved it could start a very nasty chain of events that might end up being worse than the initial situation.

I know a couple of people who have - genuinely through no fault of their own - got in a right old pickle with social services and it has literally ripped their families apart. I'm not sure I would want to be responsible for that.

But, I feel that by getting social services involved it could start a very nasty chain of events that might end up being worse than the initial situation.

you could anonymously email them a link to this thread..

Back in the day, my folks lived on a street where a number of young families with young children were neighbours and friends. When there was a 'do' at one of the houses, the children would all be tucked up in their own beds and the parents would go to whichever house the 'do' was at.

Every half hour or so the dads would take it in turns to go round all the houses and check all the nippers were okay/asleep. No harm came to anyone.

Just sayin', like.

this

I've two young kids, and wouldn't have left the kids as described by the OP so I'm not sure on this, I certainly wouldn't be clambering up onto my high horse about it though..

I've been a fully fledged member of the Nanny State my entire adult life, so I'm predisposed to handwringing..

you could anonymously email them a link to this thread..

Good idea. She'll never figure out who her line manager is!

😉

Thanks for the replies . I have not been at work today and hopfully by the time I get back next week one of her colleagues will have talked some sense into her. I know she has childcare during her working hours. It's just her mindset that if they are asleep nothing can happen. I offered to pay for a taxi home but she got all defensive and said we were worrying over nothing.

^ Oh yeah... 🙄

I'm not sure I would want to be responsible for that.

The couple neglecting their kids and putting them at real risk of serious harm are the ones "responsible" for this problem. If the outcome of a referral to child protection was ultimately to lead to kids being removed from their home, the OP would not be the one "responsible" for that.

Interesting how strong the opnions are on here, as someone without kids i dont quite 'get' the fuss being made. I suspect having kids changes your mind pretty quick though!

This I agree with. Its clearly not a fantastic plan to be always leaving your small children alone, but 'serious neglect'... really?

The world is not as bad a place as people seem to believe, the chances of something bad happening to those safely tucked up in bed asleep kids is tiny.
I was left (with my brothers, we are all very close in age) in the house with no adults on occasion at around that age, and we had house keys of our own to let ourselves in after school while still at primary school.
Nothing bad happened, and nothing bad happened to any of my friends who were in similar situations.

Very unlikely. You have NO IDEA how hard it would be to get her kids 'taken away' even if I said "she's putting a fag out on the kids face as I speak".

given that I deal with child protection cases on a daily basis I do have a fair idea of how things work. my experience of SS is that once you are on the radar they do not let go. and that is not a bad thing for children that are at genuine risk. it is bad however for parents who get reported by members of the public who are not in possesion of the full facts.

What if the driver had an accident or, worse, they had an accident on the way back and went to hospital etc?? How long would they be on there own then? Not knowing where mummy and daddy had gone?

what if they both fell down the stairs at home and broke their necks? What if there's no battery in their fire alarm? what if their boiler is leaking carbon monoxide because they haven't had it serviced?

OP needs to speak to her, get the full facts and then come to a decision based on the facts.

Nothing bad happened, and nothing bad happened to any of my friends who were in similar situations.

Other people also exist. Maybe bad things have happened to people you don't happen to know?

we know she works. does the husband or is he a stay at home dad?
if they both work then surely they have provisions in place for the care of the kids during the daytime (school/full time nursery)....if they can do this then why can they not do the same in instances as this...is it really worth putting your kids at risk for the sake of saving a bit of hassle/money for a babysitter?!?

Other people also exist. Maybe bad things have happened to people you don't happen to know?

Right... but how many? My point is that something happening is highly unlikely. The risk is so small.

..it is bad however for parents who get reported by members of the public who are not in possesion of the full facts...

The "safeguarding children's team" advice is to report [b]potential concerns[/b], and let the relevant team collect the hard and fast facts. If at that point they feel it's a waste of time, so be it, and they will drop the case.
If you suspect a child is in immediate danger, ring 999.

It has to be a 'fail safe' system, not a 'fail dangerous' one.

The right thing would be to report it.

DrP

EDIT:
In reference to "given that I deal with child protection cases on a daily basis", can you make it clear why you think the OP shouldn't report then? Not being facetious, but if you deal with these cases, then you would have had child protection training, and would have no hesitation about reporting?

my GFs dad used to be a social worker. he told us he had seen on too many occasions an older sibling accidentally kill a younger one when left in a room on their own: more babies than 3yo, tbf.

but still, imagine if they get up and do something silly.

lizzz - Member

Right... but how many? My point is that something happening is highly unlikely. The risk is so small.

Madeline McCann

my experience of SS is that once you are on the radar they do not let go

I would report]
]given the high profile case of the Mc Canns I cannot believe anyone would do this]

I once ran out of sugar and can get to the shop and back in 1 minute but still did not leave just in case nver mind go for 30 mins +

Madeline McCann

So one then. 🙄

lizzz - Member
Right... but how many? My point is that something happening is highly unlikely. The risk is so small.

Madeline McCann

that's a daily mail argument isn't it though..

because in a way, you could take this back to the old risk assessment debate..

maybe we shouldn't take our kids out in cars, they are far more likely statistically to be hurt in a car than in their sleep..

kid wakes up , no parents in the house ..... kid gets flustered ... falls down stairs. or youngest wakes up and starts screaming , older kid realises theres no one home and tries to help the younger kid and does harm ?

i can think of plenty ways it can go wrong without any intervention from evil people.

I wasnt left in the house till i was at old enough to understand where they were going and who to contact if there was a problem - aged about 20 😉 ... seriously though it was 11 or 12 yo.

Is it so hard to imagine that one of the children might wake up and go looking for their parents and end up leaving the house and going down the street. There are plenty of very sound reasons why leaving your children for an hour and being so far away is a really bad idea. I don't understand how some people seem to think its not very serious.

No Yunki it really happened. It's relevant to the OP too.

See trail-rats post to save myself echoing his words...

Lizzz - So you think one is OK, fine your choice. How about if it was one of yours?

The issue here is the [b]potential[/b] for harm, in an unnecessary situation.
Yes, a car trip is dangerous (and may be classed as unnecessary), but if a child is strapped in appropriately, the necessary precautions have been taken. A car trip without an appropriate car seat = unnecessary risk.

Regardless, it's not the same as you couldn't argue neglect if a car accident happens (ruling out dangerous driving etc), but this is a case of neglect.

My views have been heard - OP - do the right thing and alert someone.
I'm going to post links to cheaper items on the classifieds.....

DrP

I feel guilty when kids in bed and I am working in the garage on something. Garage is integrated and under the eldests room, doors locked and child monitor turned vol and sensitivity to max and next to me. No way i would drive off somewhere even for a couple of minutes (mine are 2 and 5).

EDIT:
In reference to "given that I deal with child protection cases on a daily basis", can you make it clear why you think the OP shouldn't report then? Not being facetious, but if you deal with these cases, then you would have had child protection training, and would have no hesitation about reporting?

You might want to read back my couple of posts. At no point have I said don't report per say. What I said, and I'll say it again because it is enormously important, is that the OP should establish at least some of the facts and the background before making an informed decision to report or not.

Amen DrP

yossarian, I don't agree, it's not the OP's job to investigate this. The information he has now suggests a real risk of serious harm. He should report it and people who are paid professionals trained to investigate these things should then, er, investigate it.

kid wakes up , no parents in the house ..... kid gets flustered ... falls down stairs. or youngest wakes up and starts screaming , older kid realises theres no one home and tries to help the younger kid and does harm ?

this is why we should be in possession of all the facts before our witch hunt..

equally as likely is that both kids are safely tucked up in their bed/cot.. child safety gates on their doors, no hazards or history of waking with a friendly neighbour keeping an ear open..

like I said, I wouldn't do it, but I've been brought up as a proper bedwetting ward of the Nanny State

I'm sure the parent would hate it if anything happened to their child while they're away. Sometimes people need educating or a good kicking in the ass.

Social services I would hope will do both!

FFS he doesn't have to [i]investigate[/i] this. He should talk to the woman, find out what her circumstances are and then act.

You might want to read back my couple of posts. At no point have I said don't report per say

Fair enough - I accept that.
However, he may not be in a position to get her to speak openly any more, or she may deny statements she's already mentioned. My worry is this may alter the OPs readiness to make a report.

I accept it's not an easy thing to bring yourself to do, however.

DrP

don't raise it at work other than that you expect appropriate childcare to be in place when she is on a works "do"

do

I would report that behaviour to social services.

DrP is the man to listen too, a small contact from social services explaining the error of their ways should probably correct the behavior, if not then they get involved more

it's neglect

it is bad however for parents who get reported by members of the public who are not in possesion of the full facts

Apart from the obvious safety matters discussed at length I have two 5yr olds who very rarely wake in the night but sometimes they wake up upset after a bad dream. If they don't find us quickly they get more upset. If they then went round the house and couldn't find us they would be devastated.

I couldn't bear the thought of me jollying it up whilst my kids cry themselves to sleep alone and scared. It's just cruel and wrong.

[i]I offered to pay for a taxi home but she got all defensive and said we were worrying over nothing. [/i]

At what point was this, before/during/after? And if before/during, why didn't she just take up your offer, I'm sure her OH would've been happier.

tbh We've kids and wouldn't have done it at their ages, but have done for 10-15 mins when a bit older though - and if they got held up maybe neighbours/family would be able to let themselves in.

At what age do folk think its ok? If I remember recently the Govt decreed that the single parents with young kids couldn't use this as an excuse/reason to turn down a job - can't remember the age, but it was younger than I'd leave mine for a few hours.

As for SS, if you do, make sure you tell her it was you - I'm sure they'll thank you...

I don't think he needs to 'investigate' anything beyond finding out if someone has had a conversation with her by the time he gets back (and if not, then he should).

And make it clear, that despite her assessment, providing some sort of cover (babysitter, friendly neighbour listening in for an hour, etc.) is essential, and if he gets wind of the same happening again he'll be making a call straightaway to the appropriate authorities.

I think the OP is beyond reproach so far in what he's done; the only thing I'd have done differently would be to insist she has a taxi back rather than her husband coming. I had to do the same for a colleague once who wasn't drunk but was probably close to if not over the limit but was adamant he was OK. He was annoyed at the time but the next day he thanked me for not backing down.

Re: the slim chance something would happen; I agree in likelihood it would be OK. But it's not just the question of what's the risk (which in itself is a combination of likelihood of happening x severity of outcome if it did), it's also a question of what's the ratio of risk to benefit. And when the benefit is saving a few quid on a babysitter or taxi which iirc the OP said he'd pay anyway, I wouldn't be taking that risk.

I offered to pay for a taxi home but she got all defensive and said we were worrying over nothing.

because it's normal behavior for her, you would be setting the expectation that she or her husband should always get (and pay)for a taxi

you have a legitimate concern, call SS and give them the details

As for SS, if you do, make sure you tell her it was you - I'm sure they'll thank you...

You now have a duty of care (DEFINATELY MORAL maybe professional) to pass this information on to a professional agency who can deal with this ASAP. This is DEFINATELY a SAFEGUARDING issue and you MUST deal with this. Imagine the scenario where someone has been watching that house and knows exactly when parents will be out and when to make a move. After last nights disclosure, YOU are now the one who needs to do what is LEGALLY required. Every county has what is called a MASH team. (multi Agency Safe Guarding Hub) Anyone can make a referral or make a call for advice. They will then take over and deal with the situation appropriately. I have the Devon number if you are in the area.

As matter of interest can you vouch for all the people there last night? are they all CRB'd? Because they now know where 2 vulnerable and unsupervised children are located.

If you are in Devon, I will make the call if you dont. You DO NOT have enough experience to say "I'm sure it will be fine" or "if I have a word then she will stop." You MUST PASS THIS ON.

Call me if you want a chat. This is VERY important.

This thread is amazing. Even though there is no legal minimum age below which children should not be left at home alone folk are wanting to shop the parents to social services. For all we know the kids could have been perfectly safe and the parents might have taken every precaution to ensure that the kids came to no harm. It is possible and maybe even probable that what they did was legal.

Isn't there some weird clause about not leaving an under-16 in charge of a younger child? So - you're allowed to leave one child at home alone, but not with a sibling.

once again I am absolutely astounded by the awful, awful people that think it's completely acceptable to take their moral outrage straight to the authorities for them to deal with..

no wonder communities are so splintered and isolated..

For god's sake get a sense of community will you.. I blame a generation brought up to run to teacher.. And for members of the community that are meant to hold positions of responsibility to be perpetuating this nonsense is despicable..

What's wrong with communicating our ideas to one another instead of all this passing the buck at the soonest opportunity..?

Wot yunki said

On a serious note, my wife went out and I put the kids to be and then went out to garage on the turbo for an hour. Felt bad after about 20 mins leaving them and I was only in the garage with the door open and I told my oldest where I would be.

Decided from now on just to wait untill wife gets back.

I'm still not sure what I did was bad.

The under 16s looking after younger kids is simply that the parents are responsible when someone under 16 is looking after younger children.

Scots Law includes that the child must be deemed to be responsible before they can be left alone.

Simon-Semtex - I've reported your post as there is no need for personal insults.