[Closed] Land closure - reasonable?

It's bullshit. Do they have evidence of spread outside?

Most infection seems to be from people in the same room.

It would make much more sense to force supermarkets to sell their stuff in their car parks.

Not. It's completely illegal.

They need a Section 11 order.

Contact Scotways and the local Access Officer.

I think, well at least locally any closure of rights of way are listed specifically on the Council Website. There's a single closure in Cardiff. A very narrow footpath that not much than shoulder-wide.

I wouldn't put it past some landowners to 'unofficially, officially' close footpaths citing C19 hoping they'll be forgotten about post lock-down.

Foot & Mouth all over again.

Dalmeny estate has plenty of previous. I'd accept a please keep to the sustains route type request

They're always at it aren't they?

Reported to as many folk as I can. Dalmeny estate has plenty previous for attempting to deny access. reasonable restrictions I could live with. Closing the sustrans route is not reasonable

I've seen similar on social media this week from various parts of the country.

Local to me:

https://twitter.com/BradgatePark
1/4 Statement from The Bradgate Park Trust Chairman, Nick Rushton Earlier this week we closed our Tearooms & Visitor Centre but wanted to keep the Park & Swithland Wood open to support the health and wellbeing of our staff, volunteers and visitors.2/4 Unfortunately the Park was so full of visitors yesterday that social distancing was not being observed. With Mother’s Day today & the likelihood of improving weather, it is foreseeable that maintaining social distancing will become an even greater challenge.

2/4 Unfortunately the Park was so full of visitors yesterday that social distancing was not being observed. With Mother’s Day today & the likelihood of improving weather, it is foreseeable that maintaining social distancing will become an even greater challenge.

3/4 Statement Chairman Bradgate Park Trust, Nick Rushton continued Both Swithland Wood & Bradgate Park are closed, as are car parks, toilets, indoor facilities & Memorial Wood. This is until further notice & we will continue to review the situation.4/4 We have agreed to close both sites. We had wanted to support the health & wellbeing of local residents during these unprecedented times, but people's safety is priority. Put simply, if there are too many people it's impossible to keep to government's social distancing advice</span></div>

4/4 We have agreed to close both sites. We had wanted to support the health & wellbeing of local residents during these unprecedented times, but people's safety is priority. Put simply, if there are too many people it's impossible to keep to government's social distancing advice

Funnily enough they forgot to mention that there are several rights of way that cross the park.</div>

They have probably furloughed half their staff as they won't want to have their 1 Million Pound wage bill when their is no car park income.</div>

I saw this a couple of days ago and meant to get in contact with the council as it seemed pretty dubious.

Which gate did you try enter through? I'd tried the second entrance up from Cramond Brig, i.e. not Route 76 but the tarmac'd route at Burnshot Farmhouse (NT 17267 76179) and there was the signage that you referred to above all over that.

Ended up just following Route 1 then down Hawes Brae into South Queensferry

Have a look at their Facebook page for further details: https://en-gb.facebook.com/dalmenyestate/

"As per our signs, you will see that the areas have not been closed – we are simply requesting that people avoid them. If they choose to ignore our request then they are free to do so, although we can point out that people have a right of “responsible access” and it doesn’t seem very responsible to put at risk the welfare of our livestock and the ability of our farmworkers to plant food crops. The wording on our signs was approved by Edinburgh Council Access Officers who confirmed that we were not breaching access rights by making this request."

"Dalmeny Estate The areas which the public are being requested to keep to (just during this 3 week lockdown) are 2-3m tracks with grass verges and about a mile and a half of beaches so people taking exercise will have plenty of room to spread out. The reason we ask them to avoid the intensively-farmed centre of the estate and tracks with free-range livestock is not because of infecting livestock – it is to keep our farm workers safe to carry out their Essential Work of providing food. Some people as an individual know how to keep a sufficient distance from farm workers to prevent infection – they may be reasonable, but they are not the only ones who would like to come through.
Last Sunday, there were several thousand people on Dalmeny Estate: having picnics, walking their dogs through the sheep pastures, wandering around the farm buildings, petting the calves. Almost all of them would probably have said that they were trying to keep social distance, but it was entirely impossible for the shepherds to get quickly and safely to where they were needed, or farm workers to get tractors along the crowded single-track roads to the fields (yes, we work on Sunday). It’s what’s called the “tragedy of the commons:” individuals pursue their reasonable self-interest, but collectively create a disaster.
Moreover, it’s not clear how long the virus remains on surfaces like shed cladding, gates and railings. The two shepherds are out on their quad-bikes, on narrow roads, all day every day, delivering 1,200 ewes of their lambs (usually twins), bringing the weaker lambs back to the warmth of the sheds, matching orphans and triplets to foster mothers, establishing and reinforcing the maternal bond. These are time-sensitive and anxious processes, which have their own complex requirements for prevent infection of the livestock. If we can get through these weeks without also having to fear infection of the shepherds, it would be much better.
This request has nothing to do with the politics of access. We are not ordering people to stay out, we are requesting that they avoid parts of the estate so that this essential work can be done without the added fear of infection. We hope that you can see your way to helping with this. We hope, like everyone else, to be back to normal as soon as possible and meanwhile thank everyone who is cooperating. It is a tribute to the goodwill and understanding of the people of Cramond and Queensferry that the vast majority have been so helpful in this matter."

Like I said - if they have an issue they can request a Section 11 order.

TJ - you'll probably recall some of my part in the F&M goings on 😉  Edinburgh Council were complicit in illegal signage on that occasion too.

Strathmore Estate/ Glamis Castle are attempting to do the same but there are so few people with access to the land from home that it's wholly unreasonable and empty anyway. I'm just climbing over the locked gates and carrying on. The only folk I saw on this morning's 'commute' around the 20km woodland circuit were our neighbours. No car, no gnar, not far.

The wording is quite clever making it look like an outright ban without actually stating it - and they do not say what the consultation with the council is. As for the allegations of folk wandering around petting calves and the like - pure nonsense. I use the estate a fair bit and I have never seen any walker on anything other than the sustrans route or the shore path.

As I said - if the request had been reasonable I would not mind. this is not and given the previous from the estate I am very suspicious of their intent

I went in thru the gate nearest crammond brig and rode the sustrans route.

I guess they learned from previous attempts to close the land access off hence this is a request made to look like an instruction

This may need a bit of direct action. slapping up signs saying that the "request" has no merit or need and that it is reasonable to continue to use the shore path and the sustrans route but keep off the rest - or something like that

Some clarity from Highland Council

https://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/news/illegal-signs-claiming-routes-are-closed-slammed-196048/

I saw this a couple of weeks ago and to be honest I read them, saw that it was only a request (not a full closure as you're saying) and decided it was actually pretty reasonable and that I'd do as they requested. The gates aren't locked, you can go in. I'm not sure if you've been on any of the other cycle paths but the Roseburn path, the Union Canal, NCR1 and the Water of Leith out at the Pentlands are all VERY busy and I bet Dalmeny would be the same if they hadn't asked, politely, for people to stay away til this all blows over.

I don't see it as being much different to parks being closed in London - these are pretty exceptional times. I'm avoiding all the Edinburgh cycle paths at the moment because you can't stay 2m away from people and I suspect if you had a load of families wobbling about Dalmeny it'd be the same there too. I know the paths are big but even on the Roseburn Path and NCR1 which are similar widths you can't stay away from people. And people are behaving differently - people that don't normally use these areas now are and are doing things like petting animals and acting unpredictably.

And if they allow people on the estate and a worker catches Covid from a stile or gate then that's a valuable worker lost at lambing time - the busiest time of year for these guys. And because it's in the city it's much more likely to happen here than on a more rural farm.

Normally I'd fight for anyone's right to access land in the UK but in this case, at this moment in time, I think you're overreacting - it's not closed, it's a request, there's an unprecedented health crisis going on and given the situation in the rest of the city's green spaces it's a reasonable one.

If it had been "keep to the shore path and the sutrans path only" I would agree with you munrobiker.

there is no way those paths would get used a huge amount and remember the estate has a lot of previous attempts to restrict and stop access.

I'd disagree about the paths not being used - NCR1 that runs right by it is very busy, the esplanade at Cramond that is part of a popular cycle route is so busy the police have been on it, it's next to Cramond, Cramond Bridge, Bughtlin, Queensferry and Dalmeny. A lot of people can access that estate very easily and I think if there weren't signs suggesting it's a bad idea then they would be.

Strangely, the Queensferry branchline path is dead. Maybe use that instead?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-52140362?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=5e8dafe4d5498d066c14e84e%26Warning%20over%20%27inappropriate%27%20path%20closures%262020-04-08T11%3A12%3A34.844Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:9c4c7373-fef0-4313-88bd-dbeb559961fa&pinned_post_asset_id=5e8dafe4d5498d066c14e84e&pinned_post_type=share

Apparently not

Some estates/keepers/toffs will given half a chance use this to further their aims of keeping the great unwashed of moi laaand for as long as possible. To be fair though, from the keepers I know, most of them accept the status quo and work round it. Here in the sunny Highlands, most of the big estates are so far away from the mass of humanity that is the rest of the country that access issues right now are a non-event (mostly).

I've just posted this on the golf course thread but it applies here:

The Local Authority will have a map of core paths on their website - the Sustans route is almost certainly a core path.

For Stirling ->  https://www.stirling.gov.uk/planning-building-the-environment/the-environment/core-paths/

Any attempt to block (locking gates etc) or divert these should be flagged to the Council Local Access Officer.

And particularly now – it’s not up to a landowner to block access, with access by bikes and foot having the same  rights.

And as ScotRoutes says - any other attempt to stop access requires a Section 11 order.

I also find that tagging the council and the local paper on Twitter always gets everyone to jump.

I'd have thought those out and back routes would make the situation worse, rather than letting people do a loop. Closing the Sustrans route is out of order.
Personally I'll be avoiding Dalmeny Estate at the moment. It was really busy last time I was there, before C19 kicked in. Shouldn't be so bad if people are observing the rules and not driving out there, but...

http://parkswatchscotland.co.uk/2020/04/08/the-corona-crisis-the-lessons-of-foot-and-mouth-and-a-beacon-of-hope-in-the-countryside-lockdown/

Closing the Sustrans route is out of order.

It isn't closed, and they state that fairly clearly.

Do you not get a sore head Luke?

From all that forelock tugging.

Scottish governments update about access code and covid19
https://www.gov.scot/publications/ministerial-statement-on-access-rights-during-covid-19/

Aye just seen that bikepawl

This is a temporary situation and it is more important now than ever to maintain good relationships between neighbours and within communities. This is not about restricting the general right of responsible non-motorised access to land but it is part of the wider approach to prevent COVID-19 deaths and preserving the nation’s food supplies.

Exercising access rights responsibly means respecting the needs of other people, and you will need to adapt your behaviour accordingly in the national effort to contain the spread of COVID-19.

Land managers should respect access rights, which are particularly important at this difficult time. If necessary, use helpful signs to highlight issues to users and suggest reasonable alternative routes.

From the way I read that Dalmeny estates have not been acting within the spirit

Yes some restrictions would be reasonable but not what they have attempted

the Edinburgh access officer was not terribly helpful so I have forwarded the ministerial statement to him

3/4 Statement Chairman Bradgate Park Trust, Nick Rushton continued Both Swithland Wood & Bradgate Park are closed, as are car parks, toilets, indoor facilities & Memorial Wood.

That’s going to upset the local dogging circuit.

@BillOddie

There's another one at it round our way too. On the face of it their signs don't read too badly. They state that the path had seen a 'sharp rise' in use since the start of the covid-19 issue and basically just advise to take care when handling gates and that you MUST stick to the path.

However this is also a landowner who fenced the RoW effectively into a stream and has tonnes of Access Prohibited signs and barbed wire all over the gates that border the ROW at one point. How they know there has been a 'sharp rise' is also beyond me as the ROW is in no place visible to where they actually live and I have never seen anyone on the private bits.

More than likely this is just the usual NIMBY 'get ooorrrrrrffffff moooiiiii land' arseholes again. Using any excuse to intimidate, restrict and create an aura of there being a 'problem' in the hope of being able to put a closure in.

As for Braggy, they had to backtrack on the RoW thing (can't imagine the horsey set letting them get away with that) but they are at pains to mention mountain bikes with every post on their Facebook page and the curtain twitching amateur Stasi of the surrounding villages are loving the opportunity to get into a froth. On her way home from work (NHS) the other day my missus saw two blokes parked up on a verge near another country park and walking in carrying a disposable barbecue. Add to that the dog walkers who are letting their mutts shit everywhere and not clean it up because there is no one there to make them and I just despair.