[Closed] Kirroughtree without a lid - madness

Braindead

they soon will be .....

I bet they were all fine too.

I bet they were all fine too.

No, some were quite ugly.

Darwin* had a point

*Actually, one might argue that Charles Lyell was the man with the point, but let's not get in to that.

Very silly...

****in ijots

Perhaps they had read all the available evidence, and, having not found anything conclusive, simply decided to ride within their limits, like everyone did before the rise of polystyrene cycle hats?

...ride within their limits...

I love this expression. It's as if the word 'accident' doesn't, or hasn't ever, existed.

An accident could happen to you anywhere though, The worst head injury I've ever suffered happenend while hitting my head on my microwave oven door. I should of course wear a lid while preparing dinner in a particularly gnarly way? 🙂

*shrugs shoulders*

It is, after all, your choice - and, as you say, you have to draw the line somewhere. I've replaced my Giro Hex twice now, using the crash replacement policy, after it has sacrificed itself by absorbing the impact twice - and as far I was concerned I was 'riding within my limits'.

I did the Megavalanche and didn't hit my head once, therefore I didn't need to wear a helmet? 😛

See what happens when you're not ready for it...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/8332641.stm

clearly body armour is necessary for walking in city centres?

🙄

you could always just email TJ direct, you know

Sorry, it is indeed personal choice, its just I think most people overestimate how much protection the average so-called helmet provides- I once had a brand new Giro pneumo ( worn for racing only) that broke in two after being knocked off a 5ft high cupboard shelf. If that happened while wearing it I'd be claiming it saved my life etc.

Well I went over the bars and landed on my head, badly enough to hurt my neck/shoulder pretty badly, and cracked my Giro Hex in a few places. I think I could well have been seriously hurt without it - I still think it's up to the individual person and people should stop being so bloody judgemental.

Thing is, head injuries seem to be really nasty - much nastier than a broken arm or cracked rib.

Friend of mine came off _with_ a crash helmet and landed on his head. Four months on and he's riding once a month where before he was out several times a week.

few years back was coming down the red bull top of descent load of lidless blokes, set off down and one of them was hot on my heels
but i dropped him halfway down
waited at the bottom for my mates and the guy came down with a big gash on his head and arm saying he nearly caught me but crashed
we suggested to these guys that wearing a helmet was a good thing but they were all squaddies who knew better despite all the blood

My point really is that, in the sort of accident that may result in a life-changing injury, no cycle helmet on the market will make a difference. Most cycle helmets offer less protection than a construction hat or a(horse)riding hat.
I see riders going way beyond the design limits of the best motorcycle helmets, but they think they are safe because of an inch or so of polystyrene.
I should say however, that I dont critisise anyone for their choice,and a helmet will certainly fend off low vegetation, but think that people should be realistic about why they are wearing one.

TJ to the soapbox, TJ to the soapbox

west kipper have you ever gone otb and landed on your head at speed
i have 3 times

split helmet each time once was at slower speed but fell about 12 feet of some north shore

without a lid certain id have been a lot more messed up

im not even talking about dh crashes with my full face

waited at the bottom for my mates and the guy came down with a big gash on his head and arm saying he nearly caught me but crashed

So he was ok then? 🙂

yeah he was grinning like a mad man but had a big gash above his eye, id have been a bit more concerned if it was me

west kipper have you ever gone otb and landed on your head at speed
i have 3 times

Me too but I would suggest that people mincing down red routes at trail centres are probably unlikely to do this.

Despite not being exactly well known for my handling skills, Kimbers, I seem to have less crashes than most of my helmet-nazi riding buddies. I know people get irritated when the words 'Risk compensation' are used but...

yeah thats my point if you aint lidded up you cant ride on the edge, ............. dude

And my point is that a red route is hardly the edge 🙂

not for us hardened pros, obviously, but for newbies

It's not really a personal choice, you should also think of your family who will be left to wipe your arse when you're a veg.

I'd never drive the car without a seatbelt on or use an angle grinder without goggles etc. I'ts common sense.

you should also think of your family who will be left to wipe your arse when you're a veg.

Don't go mountain biking then.

I'd never drive the car without a seatbelt on

Many fatal car accidents are caused by head injuries, why don't you wear a helmet in the car? OMG that's so selfish! 😛

We are all exposing ourselves to different degrees of risk all the time, the extent to which you accept them or try and mitigate them is often not done on a very logical basis, and is entirely up to the individual imo.

Hello? does everyone know everyone else?

Biscuit? cup of tea?

Now can I remember this.

Pro choice:

Helmets are less effective than any think
head injuries are rare
risk compensation is a factor to consider. There is good eveidence that helmet wearing increases accident rates
Adults can make an evaluation of risk and decide on levels of protection required.
Just because you don't agree with my point of view does not mean I am stupid.

Pro compulsion

You are stupid not to wear a helmet
My helmet saved my life
Non helmet wearers are organ donors

Ermmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I really think this has been done to death on here. did I miss any points?

Totally personal preference - nobody else's business what you do

but........... in the OP he mentioned that there was a small girl on a tag-a-long without a helmet
Her father/mother is negligent IMO & should think about it a bit more

having a child lid-less on a tag-along is far less negligent than letting kids sit on a sofa eating crap all day, give them a break )

I would say it's a bit daft especially for the kid as isn't there evidence young people don't have as strong craniums or something. But still, fair play to them for getting out there

having a child lid-less on a tag-along is far less negligent than letting kids sit on a sofa eating crap all day

Indeed.

Lots of people would say that any form of mountain biking is madness, with a helmet or not.

TJ, you missed out the point that -
In cycling, you can buy 800 gram road frames that "will turn you into a climbing god!".
You can buy legal supplements that are "the next best thing to EPO!"
Wheels that are "invisible to the wind!"
In amongst all this hyperbole whats the boldest claim made by a helmet maker?- "it looks cool" or "its well ventilated" which kind of shows that Giro, Bell and the rest are a bit more realistic.

ive come off more than once where i have landed on my bonce, and have been in no doubt in the post crash review, that without the lid i would have been either going home in a bag, or pissing in a bag for the rest of my life

no doubt at all.

each to thier own.

I've replaced my Giro Hex twice now, using the crash replacement policy, after it has sacrificed itself by absorbing the impact twice - and as far I was concerned I was 'riding within my limits'.

I would suggest YOU need to wear a helmet as you clearly have no idea where your limit is or how to fall off a bike without hitting your head 😆

Olly, fair enough, but EVERYONE seems to have a similar story to yours,Yet if even 5% of these turned out to be true, there would be some statistical reduction in injuries. Despite less people cycling,there isnt.

Fair do's, we'll agree to disagree.

All the best.

I would suggest YOU need to wear a helmet as you clearly have no idea where your limit is or how to fall off a bike without hitting your head

LOL... what an arrogant, assuming thing to say STATO.

I can understand why folk wont wear armour to ride... bulky, restricts movement and not too comfy, however I cannot understand why anyone would risk not wearing a lid - cheap, well vented and good fitting helmets are the norm now. The way I see it is that if you crash and break a leg/rib etc. - not the end of the world - however If you have a major head injury and need to be assisted the rest of your life then I will be wearing a helmet even if there is the slightest chance it could prevent an injury.

Its a risk thing - how much are you prepared to take and what type of injury would you be prepared to sustain depending on how likely you are to fall. I ride the bike within my limits and fall very little - hence a helmet and gloves does this trick, occasionaly knee pads when I am pushing it a bit. When I snowboard I always wear helmet, wristguards and spine protector as I always fall on my back and have broken a wrist before. I know loads of people who dont bother, however I am not willing to risk a spine injury.

On people that I am close to that have been injured and saved by helmets, my wife fell on a 'green' forest road trail by losing control and fall in off a 5ft drop of a bridge into a stream. This was an unpredicatable accident and my wife had no intention of riding hard off road - the combination of speed and conditions caused the crash... result - 1 broken neck (C2 vert.) knocked out (I had to pull her out water), a broken wrist, smashed teeth, 1" gash in lip and severe cuts and bruises. The helmet was ruined and had severe cracks all over front - This saved my wife from much more sever facial injury as it caught the impact of the rock and possibly saved her from a fractured skull.

My bro also backfliped on a minor jump - whole rear section of a tough helmet fell away when he stood up - hate to think what might have been.

Sure a helmet will not prevent severe injury, my wife still broke her neck! but it may stop your most important part of your body (for some!) becoming redundant.

I think trail centres (where many novices cut their MTB teeth) should have compulsary helmet wearing, in fact I though their health and safety would demand it?

I've had two fairly big offs where helmet helped. Latest one was a tree in Glentress this year. Broke my wrist, but hit it with my head first. Certainly saved me worse damage. Couple of years ago came off in France and dug a furrow face first until I hit a rock under the ground and back flipped. Once again helmet saved me. And was not on down hill section just joining trail from the road.

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As this is descending into the usual dismal cobblers we see when ever helmets are mentioned, it's important to remember that [b][u]anecdote is not the same as data...[/u][/b]

The road users [b]most[/b] at risk from head injury are pedestrians and young drivers. [1] [2]
In Great Britain, [b]6[/b] times more pedestrians and [b]18[/b] times more motor vehicle occupants suffer lethal head injuries than cyclists. Pedestrians and motor vehicle occupants also suffer more lethal injuries to the abdomen and thorax. [3] [4]
Children are [b]2.6[/b] times more likely to suffer head injury through jumping and falling than by cycling. [5]
More than [b]99%[/b] of head injuries seen by UK hospitals do not involve road cyclists. [6]
Helmets for [b]motorists[/b] are much more effective than those for cyclists and [b]more beneficial than seat belts[/b], interior padding or air bags. Their potential for reducing injury is [b]17[/b] times greater than that of cycle helmets. [7] [3]

References

[1] Risk in cycling TRRL working paper SP/RS/75 1988, based on National Travel Survey.
[2] Ramet M, Vallet G. Typologies des accidentes du trafic routier a partier de 5459 dossiers. INRET, Rapports INRET/LCB Aug87 p106.
[3] Kennedy A. The pattern of injury in fatal pedal cycle accidents and the possible benefits of cycle helmets. British Journal of Sports Medicine, 1996 Jun;30(2):130-3.
[4]Department for Transport transport statistics.
[5] O'Rourke NA, Costello F, Yelland JDN, Stuart GG. Head injuries to children riding bicycles. Medical Journal of Australia, 1987;146:619-621.
[6] Derived from data from the Office of Population Censuses and Surveys, and
Thornhill S, Teasdale GM, Murray GD, McEwen J, Roy CW, Penny KI. Disability in young people and adults one year after head injury: prospective cohort study. BMJ, 2000 v320 p1631-5.
[7] McLean AJ, Fildes BN, Kloeden CN, Digges KH, Anderson RWG, Moore VM. Prevention of head injuries to car occupants: an investigation of interior padding options. Federal Office of Road Safety, Report CR160.

[url] http://cyclehelmets.org/index.html [/url]

Instead of spouting the same old uninformed rubbish, take a look at an alternative viewpoint, then make your [b]own[/b] mind up.

Slightly different tack,
in oz helmets are compulsory and i hate having to don a lid to ride slowly to the shops.
On a longer ride(mtb/road)helmet is part of the kit,but when i cycle tour
i carried it on the trailer and only put it on in towns.
should be personal choice
bloody nanny state 🙄

Indeed - you simply do not know what would have happened without a helmet and whilst protecting from some injuries a helmet makes other types worse - neck breaks being a classic example. You have an increased risk of neck break if you wear a helmet.

Also injury free head impacts with a helmet would not mean death or serious injury without a helmet. If you would have had a serious or fatal injury without a helmet the same impact with a helmet you will still be injured but obviously of less severity.

TJ - I find it hard to believe the chances of a neck break will have increased with a helmet (unless you are saying that your skull caving in softens the blow). In the case of my wife's neck break, this was most likely cause by a severe whiplash motion caused by a 5ft drop face first onto a rock. I do believe (and so did the doctors) that both sever head trauma and extensive facial injuries are likely to have been prevented by the helmet.

I agree that it is up to the rider to decide what suits, but in my view there are so many variables out with the riders own skill that can dictate a crash (especially on the road!) that it doesn't make sense not to wear on - I just don't think it is worth a chance. In terms of anecdotal evidence, I have seen 2 major accidents to close relatives and a few others with friends that were likely to be much worse with no helmet - that is good enough for me!

While it may be comfier to not wear a lid, its also comfier not to wear a climbing harness and crampons when winter climbing... I might be OK without this safety equipment, but who knows...

Had a look at this site

http://cyclehelmets.org/1019.html

Does seem more biased in favour of not wearing helmets - I think that sound facts could be generated from either side of the argument for and against. I think it comes down to how much risk you are willing to accept.

That said I cannot possibly see that a lightweight good fitting helmet can actually increase your chance of injury (making your head heavier or larger can contribute to injury - ?!?! (for a 400gsm helmet!) - so are big headed riders more likely to die in a collision, maybe you should ensure that you shave your head too - nonsense!!!)... therfore myself, my wife and child will still always wear theirs anytime we ride our bikes.

And I especially pity those that don't wear a lid at kiroughtree - I am a very experienced rider and have had a pretty big 'off' at those trails. Rather them than me!

I saw a bloke smoking last week. Crazy fool!
And i suspect my neighbor doesn't always eat 5 portions of fruit and veg. I'm tempted to go round and tell him there's a risk he could die, but some idiots take this sort of advice badly. Still, Darwin's laughing at them.