[Closed] just out of curiosity, have mountainbikes really changed in the last 8 years?

Only if you let em.

According to my face book my td1 is now 6 years old. Its had a few rebuilds in that time but it's still number 1 for 80% of my riding.

Yeah I'd maybe like a turner flux for 10% of that riding but most of the time it would be sat about doing sod all so I don't 🙂

Depends what you're looking for in a bike. Some bikes make some things easier but ime even at the extremes the one thing that never changes is you

You still have to steer and pedal (we have ebikes now though).
Geometry has evolved and suspension has improved.
Personally I don't have the desire to change my bike in line with tech changes, however, I think the biggest difference is the spread of ability? Short travel can now hit much bigger stuff. Long travel can now comfortably ride all day, up and down.
And dropper posts.

the best design for a bicycle is the double triangle frame, like it was when it was 1st invented.
most bikes still follow this design.

so no.

Yes massively. Just bought a new bike and I can't believe the difference that 27.5", tubeless, new geometry and short stems, super wide bars, 1x10, etc. Really big difference if you ask me. And I am like you and enjoy riding up hill.

old school natural xc orientated rider like myself who likes riding uphill

Finding it hard to comprehend how you didn't instantly fall in love with 29er.
Was tubeless mainstream in 2008? And have you gone tubeless? If not, you should.

Bigger bars and dropper posts make more difference than all of the other "improvements" in my opinion

For natural XC even those aren't that important...

No really. The geometry has evolved slightly, but you can do this to your old bike with a new headset, and the suspension has improved quite a bit. Bar widths are an important change.

However, the most popular wheel size is barely any bigger than the most popular one 8 years go, the shape of the frames is the same, the spread of gears is the same, tyre widths are similar on most bikes. And we still regard 30lbs as being totally acceptable for a 6" travel bike for some unknown reason.

Yes, tbh, but not in ways that make the old ones suddenly bad... It's not like in the 90s when old bikes genuinely sucked balls and the changes were making the difference between shit and not (*). And old school XC is probably where the difference is least felt though shocks and stuff have come along.

So frinstance, your fork there is more or less on par with the second worst Sektor you can buy today- perfectly good but what used to be top end has been overtaken. Rims have changed a lot with weight, width and tubeless but it's all incremental. And so on.

But it was a good bike then with good parts so as long as it's not knackered, it should still be good. Quite a lot of bike, for old school XC! If you were wanting to push it harder then the difference between it and a 2016 #enduro bike is quite big, partly in terms of quality/performance but mostly just sizing and geometry.

(*) sorry retrobikerists, even your pride and joy was shite, I'd rather have a £300 halfords bike. Your Fat Chance was shite, your C26 with its disc drive was shite, yes I know, Tomac, it makes no difference, your smokes and darts were ok they were alright... Well OK I'd rather have a C26 than a £300 halfords bike, but only so I could sell it for a billion pounds.

They have changed a lot, that's for sure. How much of an improvement it is is another issue entirely.

Re wheels - probably depends where you ride. On loose rocky climbs, 29 is much better. Elsewhere, possibly not so much.

Plus tyres are a big change, imo. Enduro bikes probably incremental improvements on what was around back then.

But boggo standard hardtails, not a huge change if you aren't appreciating the wheel and tyre size. Riding positions have changed with the wider bars - that is a question of getting used to it, really.

Oh and droppers.

Tubeless was definitely around in 2008, I went that way in 2005 when I got the Yeti 575 with coil pikes.

Things have changed massively since then... to be honest I think they have changed a fair bit since I switched from the Yeti to the Whyte T129 which taught me 29" wheels were actually a great idea. To me, last year and this year (2017 model year) have been a really big shift in mainstream bike makers, with slacker geometries/wider bars/shorter stems etc all shifting to the norm.

I always think these things are cyclic. There is a pretty big change, then everything settles down to little shifts for a bit before another big change comes along a few years later.

Up to a couple of years ago bikes had stayed pretty much the same for 10 to 15 years with only small incremental [s]improvements[/s] changes. 29ers became favoured by the XC crowd but another cog or two at the back and minor suspension tweaks didn't make much difference to the riding experience.
In my opinion the recent popularity of wider rims and plus sized tyres has made a bigger difference, with the ability to run lower pressures for a smoother, grippier ride without the bulk of a fatbike. Going plus on the rigid singlespeed I used to keep for winter use only has been quite a revelation and had me riding it more than any other bike this summer.

IMO the modern 'trail' geos which seem to focus on sub 67 HA are significantly worse for proper xc riding than more traditional geos. Slow steering, front end wandering on climbs etc etc.

Don't even get me started on bars that are so wide they dont fit through gaps betwen trees in proper singletrack.

You still have to steer and pedal (we have ebikes now though)

Which you still have to pedal and steer....

Comparing bikes from 8 years ago to now, I think there are lots of little changes here and there, a bit lighter here, a bit wider there, a little slacker, slightly bigger wheels, a bit longer, a bit lower, a bit stiffer, a couple more sprockets back there. Individually, not earth shattering, but when you add them all up, the make a more noticeable difference.

Not to say your bike is bad, (I I had a slope style of similar vintage, great fun, if a little heavy) moderner bikes have just evolved, rather than had a revolution. 2008 was past the 'bikes are shite, but they're all we know' era.

Bike fit has changed quite a lot. And decent suspension damping is easier to come across.

I rode one of these at the end of the noughties, upgraded with a Fox 36 RC2 (it's a Reign from eight years ago)...
[img] [/img]

TBH it could probably do most of what I do on my current bikes, but I feel much less sketchy doing it because of the new geometry.

For XC 29in wheels have been a "game changer" though, and I don't use those words easily.

sorry retrobikerists, even your pride and joy was shite, I'd rather have a £300 halfords bike. Your Fat Chance was shite, your C26 with its disc drive was shite,

well mine havent

but all this new fangled wheel size nonsense asides

Nothing wrong with 26' wheels, until you try 29' and they work so much better for you that 26' now just feels wrong. That's how it worked for me, not everyone feels the same.

I still have fun on my 2009 bike.

OK, price inflation has spoiled my rant- my 2010 £300 halfords bike was better than a 90s retro but today, not so much. So let's say, a £500 Halfords bike for 2016, a Voodoo Hoodoo. If you want to avoid any arguments, maybe go as high as £600 for a Bizango to make it open and shut.

Capt. Kronos - Member

Tubeless was definitely around in 2008, I went that way in 2005 when I got the Yeti 575 with coil pikes.

Yah, but it was mostly fairly ropey. I remember people saying "tubeless is the future", and it was back then, it's only more recent that it's the present. Modern rims and TLR are awesome tbh, UST's not holding us back any more

Nothing wrong with 26' wheels, until you try 29' and they work so much better for you that 26' now just feels wrong. That's how it worked for me, not everyone feels the same.

Well, I tried 29' for a weekend and didn't like it at all - the bike just felt dead.

I never really had any problem with tubeless back in the day! That was proper UST rims and tyres too!

Then again, I was very probably just lucky - I recall the threads on here at the time of tubeless disasters most days 😉

FWIW you could get a 853 steel hardtail with full XT, 717 rims and a Reba for £1k in 2008.

Merlin used to have the good-value hardtail market sewn up, eh?

Until about 18 months ago I felt quite sanctimonious hoovering up cheap 26" frames, wheels and tyres for next to nothing...then I rode a 29er.I don't have a 26" bike now.

ransos - Member
Well, I tried 29' for a weekend and didn't like it at all - the bike just felt dead.

Capt. Kronos - Member

I never really had any problem with tubeless back in the day! That was proper UST rims and tyres too!

Then again, I was very probably just lucky

Proper UST all round did work well, it was just heavy and generally expensive

(qoute-of-quote) old school natural xc orientated rider like myself who likes riding uphill (/qoute-of-quote)

Finding it hard to comprehend how you didn't instantly fall in love with 29er.

I love riding uphill, often as fast as I possibly can, just for fun. But am completely ambivalent about 29ers, after demoing a half-dozen. I can see why they are good at what they do, but what they do (IMO) is make things faster, somewhat easier and, overall, MTBing less-engaging.

If I was regularly riding marathons, 12 hr backcountry epics, or new to MTBing, I could see the point. But I don't/ aren't.

Luddite 26er to the max here 😆 , 3x9, 32mm forks, tubes, narrow rims, 2.25 tyres, 69-70 deg head angles. It's a wonder I'm even able to enjoy myself on a bike at all... 😉

I've got a 2009 Turner 5 spot as my main trail bike.

The geometry is a bit old school but its easily tweaked to make it feel a bit more modern.

Angle set and offset bushings slackened the HA by 1.5 degrees. It's now a very fashionable 67. Wider bars and a shorter stem (720mm and 60mm is fine I'm not an ape) is another easy change.

Straight steerer limits its future upgrade-ability as far as forks are concerned but its running a 2013 150mm Rev with the RLT damper and a Fox RP3 shock.

Yes its got 26" wheels but so what, I'm not convinced 27.5" would feel any different for trail riding.

It rides nice I still really enjoy it.

I'm not a luddite - I have a nice 29er hardtail that I bought this year but I'm not convinced good bikes have suddenly become obsolete because new ones are a bit longer and slacker

FWIW you could get a 853 steel hardtail with full XT, 717 rims and a Reba for £1k in 2008.

And I just bought a 29er hardtail with full SRAM GX 1 x 11, a quality aluminium frame, Reba RLTs and Mavic 319s for £900. It even had a Prologo saddle!

Like @Cha****ng I had a 2009 Reign until the BB threads got stripped 🙁 out and I was forced into buying a new bike. 27.5" wheels, short stem, wide bars, better performance shock and forks and 1*11 all make a difference. However if my Giant was still on the go then other than wheel size I could have done all that myself.

For the record my Giant climbed much more securely than the Whyte G150 I replaced it with but the Whyte is faster, more planted and responsive than the Reign, No Diggety, no doubt!

Hell no, Scotsroutes.
I loved the feel of my '16 whyte 529 when i bought it UNTIL the moment i went from xc bridalpaths to Lee Quarry where i'd normally play for an Adrenalin fix... I plopped my pants!
My previous hardtails had done everything, Merlins, Carreras, Inbreds, whatever...
Every trail centre, bridalways, Canal towpath jollies out - the lot

I had a go on a '16 Bizango and id found my do everything hardtail again

My 2005 Nicolas Helius still has a 67 degree head angle

Carries newer forks, wider bars and wider rims than it used to, but still running 9 speed SRAM X.0 (best shifter feel ever IMO) - everyone whose ridden it still loves how it feels, and I've ridden plenty of newer bikes that don't seem to carry any major advantage for any of the riding I do to justify spending major money on transferring to a new frame, fork and wheel size.

And I just bought a 29er hardtail with full SRAM GX 1 x 11, a quality aluminium frame, Reba RLTs and Mavic 319s for £900. It even had a Prologo saddle!

I've got the same bike I think! But mine cost £720 with 20% off plus BC discount.

Wheels were a bit weighty, but it'd still wipe the floor with those old Merlin HTs.

The Boardman (was I right?) is a bit of an outlier these days though. Shame they don't do an 853 or carbon version, with a slightly longer front end.

My 26er Anthem was a far superior bike to my new 29er XC machine...

how I miss that bike...which I basically gave a way to some bloke off here for chips...

tpbiker - Member
My 26er Anthem was a far superior bike to my new 29er XC machine...
how I miss that bike...which I basically gave a way to some bloke off here for chips...

Big differences:

Shimano brakes and Rock Shox forks aren't up to the same quality standards they used to be.

Effective gear range has reduced, but drivetrains are more expensive.

The introduction of a completely pointless wheelsize (650B) and other pointless new standards has caused the market to stagnate and sales to slow.

Overpriced tourers with stupid gearing and a bloody silly name are popular amongst the ex golfers.

I've not tried any really new bikes with new geometry so I can't really comment on those, but of the 3 bikes I have one is a hardtail from 98, one is a 140mm full suss from 2005 built up quite burly and a 2010 Anthem built up quite light.
Non of them have got particularly new kit on them but are all still good fun to ride, and I ride them faster now than back in the day.
So my theory is about new bikes, that they will certainly ride differently due to advances in suspension and geometry but whether that's better is quite subjective.
I don't need wider bars, droppers or 1x.
The bikes still work and I'm still happy riding them and don't feel the need to spend thousands on swapping them.

Tyres have also got better.

I'm getting way more grip for less weight and far fewer punctures.

I've learnt to ride a lot better over that 8 years as well, which confuses the issue. But I'm [i]pretty[/i] sure that the longish, slackish 29er hardtail with it's nice wide bars and dinky stem is an improvement on the rather short, twitchy 26er hardtail with a 90mm stem that I was running back then.

It doesn't make all that much difference. I'd not go back, but if I'd not had a new bike in 8 years I'm not sure I'd be suffering. 🙂

Somewhere between spending £1000 on a brand new, current geometry hardtail and spending £1 on a beautifully maintained, faultless 8 year old hardtail there's a point at which the older bike would still be considered better VFM.

Wonder where that point is though?

As the fortunate owner of both examples, for me the line is drawn on what you might call traditional XC riding. On open moorland, fireroads, fields and doubletrack the 8 year bike is fine but the newer bike is better on more challenging terrain.

There is a simple truth here.

If you put a pro level rider on any of our bikes they will make the majority of us look silly irrespective of wheelsize, geometry, equipment, gearing or frankly any of it.

Buy what you like, can afford and enjoy. I like bikes and enjoy shiny new things so new is better for me but it still won't mean I can pull a decent manual.

I would say they have massively - wider bars, bigger wheels (whichever size you go for), dropper posts and various changes in geometry make bikes much more capable. Or at least they feel more capable, which if it gives you the confidence to ride more stuff is the same thing.

If you put a pro level rider on any of our bikes they will make the majority of us look silly irrespective of wheelsize, geometry, equipment, gearing or frankly any of it.

But what happens when you put another pro on a modern bike to race the first pro?

Eh? Eh?

There is a simple truth here.

If you put a pro level rider on any of our bikes they will make the majority of us look silly irrespective of wheelsize, geometry, equipment, gearing or frankly any of it.

Not a very helpful observation though is it?

If you put yourself, with your own fitness and skill on two different bikes, they will perform differently. Whatever pros do has nothing to do with it.

At this point last year i was riding a cobbled together mongrel HT 26er and loving it. I sold a bunch of stuff (mostly guitars) and raised enough money to buy another bike.

I set a budget of 500 quid. after trying out a battered spesh epic and a few other things i got a mint 2010 santa cruz superlight (2007 frame, but built later) which after knocking the guy down a little I got for 500 on the nose.

I still don't see them come up that cheap a year later. I've added a dropper, got rid of the rapid rise, put on the biggest tyres it'll take (2.3s), and its awesome. Goes up well, and down is faster than my mates on HT 29ers (who magically think they'll be faster on their new big wheel bikes ;)).

I love it. Its not perfect.

Next bike I want is almost the exact same. Slightly slacker, stubby stem, 2x10. and 650b, maybe a touch more travel. (I'll make a post once i'm shopping...)

- I can see how being slacker will help.
- Wheels, maybe a bit. will go tubeless.
- 2x10. if I get the gearing set up maybe. I can run out of gears in the middle ring on some descents. So I hope that'll help?
- i'm happy with 100mm.. but 120-130 is enough for most I reckon. I truely believe many people are overbiked.

But IMO, overall there's bugger all wrong with 26 platform. the small things I listed add up to a general trend and not a huge leap.

Dropper and bigger tyres have been the biggest revelations and "Moar gears" seems like the innovation i'll benefit from most.

(oh while i'm on my high horse, and e-bikes suck balls if you're capable of riding a normal bike and being a lazy ****)

The Boardman (was I right?) is a bit of an outlier these days though. Shame they don't do an 853 or carbon version, with a slightly longer front end.

Yes spot on! Really like mine.

What wheels did you upgrade to, if you don't mind me asking?

But you're not suggesting that all 29ers handle identically?

I was responding to a comment that 29ers were better. I can only say that my own experience is the opposite. This was a Scott Spark 29er compared to my Giant Anthem X 26er. The Scott was more stable on rocky boulders, but I prefer the Anthem for everything else.

Geometry changes simply change the focus of the bikes preferred terrain nothing more. 20 year old HT were fairly okay on the road (which was handy when you rode a few miles to the trail head), but they were far less capable on steep descents, new bikes are way more capable on the downs but pretty sluggish on the road.

Dropper posts can be retro fitted. Likewise different gearing.

Wider bars aren't really a thing, bars have been getting wider for the last 25 years.

Yes spot on! Really like mine.

What wheels did you upgrade to, if you don't mind me asking?

Race Face Turbine - got an unused set a guy had taken off a new bike with an XD driver for £170. About 1800g IIRC and nicely stiff.

Only other changes have been tyres and a 760mm flat bar and Reverb that I already had.

Gears working good on yours? I've had to do a LOT of faffing to get them working smooth.

Long story short compared to my 08 sx trail, lots of small changes, suspension, geometry, wheel size, bar length and stem length have made the bikes considerably more forgiving. They're still bicycles though and thus still confrom to bicycle physics.

although, i'd present the specialized sx trail/enduro, as an example of how *little* has changed in the last 8/10/11 years.

2005:

[img] [/img]

i even had a go-go-gadget seatpost on mine.

Only other changes have been tyres and a 760mm flat bar and Reverb that I already had.

Gears working good on yours? I've had to do a LOT of faffing to get them working smooth.

I swapped the tyres and went tubeless. Swapped the bars for 740mm Easton carbon and fitted a slightly shorter stem.

I had real issues with the gears dropping into the smallest 10T sprocket, but once I figured out it was badly set up B-tension on the mech they have been spot on

The bigest change is how well the bike industry has leant to play the punters.

Bikes have changed and riding has changed. What was considered downhill a decade ago is classed as trail or XC now. The changes may be subtle, but generally they are there to make things better and make more challenging riding easier/more fun.

Saying that my FS is 4 years old, and is decently usable and I will carry on doing so until the urge to replace (which is niggling away) becomes unavoidable.

Bikes have changed and riding has changed. What was considered downhill a decade ago is classed as trail or XC now. The changes may be subtle, but generally they are there to make things better and make more challenging riding easier/more fun.

Saying that my FS is 4 years old, and is decently usable and I will carry on doing so until the urge to replace (which is niggling away) becomes unavoidable.

Bikes have changed and riding has changed. What was considered downhill a decade ago is classed as trail or XC now. The changes may be subtle, but generally they are there to make things better and make more challenging riding easier/more fun.

Saying that my FS is 4 years old, and is decently usable and I will carry on doing so until the urge to replace (which is niggling away) becomes unavoidable.

In answer to your question, nah, not really.. I've still got all the bikes I had from then(& before )to the newer ones I have now & ride them all fairly regularly.

One thing is different - Dropper seat posts are great, but a quick release clamp is cheaper & more reliable 🙂

I started riding modern full suspension mountain bikes in 2008. Hardtails are hardtails and haven't really changed as much as full suspension over the years, the changes are largely in the full suspension category. That first full suspension bike in 2008 has not changed much compared to todays bikes in terms of technology, it's mainly the geometry differences - wider bars, longer travel, slacker head angle etc. The differences in full suspension bikes from early 2000s and 1990s is absolutely huge compared to that bike in 2008. If you look at some of the weird and wonderful designs from that era (Whyte PRST for example) There must have been a watershed moment at this transitional period. Was it standardisation of components or did the sport suddenly take off? I don't know what's changed, I only came back to riding bikes in 2005 ish, there was a long gap since I cruised the streets on my Raleigh Chopper.

I started riding modern full suspension mountain bikes in 2008. Hardtails are hardtails and haven't really changed as much as full suspension over the years, the changes are largely in the full suspension category.

I'd agree with that. my last FS was 2008, currently building another one and the difference is marked. lighter, better climber, better descender. definitely a better allrounder.
My XC bike is a 2009 29er hardtail. current XC bikes are 20 mm longer in ETT/ front centre. maybe a degree slacker. not a huge difference.

Stuff has changed....
Wheel sizes are the most obvious but aside from that some other stuff has around gears, bars and posts.
For XC my 100mm Full Sus with 1x transmission (not overly expensive as it's a 10sp expanded) full remote lockouts that keep working, bolt through both ends so it's not flexing all over the place, carbon, full tubeless with regular weight tyres not UST, 125mm dropper post etc. That bike wasn't there in 2008.
Lighter and Stronger have got cheaper.
Shock tech has got better, we have nearly seen coil finished off!
The angles on the XC bike are great for uphill but also very capable down with the strength to survive a hammering.
It's been years since I cooked brakes
1x is coming to the masses and despite the expensive tag it's not really that far out from other top end groupsets with the price filtering down as we go.
These days it's not that hard to spec a 30lb DH bike or a sub 22lb XC bike both of which will probably last a season better than their 2008 rivals.

For general riding I have a bike that can take a battering, uplifts and heaps of stuff that I can still ride all day up and down whatever I want and be happy. Components are lasting longer and reliability on most stuff is up.

Wider bars
Droppers
Tapered headtube

Are the main ones

1x is coming to the masses

Whether or not they want it...?

for an old school natural xc orientated rider like myself who likes riding uphill does it matter a toss?

Probably not. I've recently been following a little project, linking up the Welsh Trail Centres via 'natural' trails, riding a 10 year old hardtail (with bikepacking luggage attached in some cases). I didn't meet anybody riding the 'natural' stuff but, so far, I've overtaken 29 people on WTC Red Routes, mostly on current gen FS bikes - and been overtaken by one. It's mainly, not exclusively, the climbs where I've been passing the other riders.

The trip has killed any great urge I had to 'upgrade' to a new bike before the current one breaks.

Whether or not they want it...?

Well my bike that was the dog's danglies in 2008 may as well have square wheels now, given that it's 26er (with innertubes), 27.2 seatpost, hardtail, 3x10 with a wider range of gears than 1x, 1+1/8th straight steerer, a whopping 120mm fork, 740mm bars (that was an upgrade).
A bike that's was aimed at fast flowy twisty techy singletrack, with a bit of air time, now probably classified as a fireroad bike, grassy double track bike, etc. where 29er would be better.
And I've ridden Morzine twice on that bike, shed loads of trips to Lakes, Cairngorms and the rest of the Alps.

Well my bike that was the dog's danglies in 2008 may as well have square wheels now, given that it's 26er, 27.2 seatpost, hardtail, 3x10 with a wider range of gears than 1x, 1+1/8th straight steerer, a whopping 120mm fork, 740mm bars (that was an upgrade).

Also 8 years is a decent life! Wish I could get one to last that long

But none of those things make that much difference do they

might have to try the latest 650b version, although if I replaced it, I'd be seriously considering the 29er version anyway (that can also take another fashion... 650b+).