Is UK time trialling going to die a death?

Unfortunately, I think time trialling is fairly small print when it comes to the benefits and harms of 20mph zones.

Why is there evidently no problem in Scotland?

Why is there evidently no problem in Scotland?

sorry what do you mean? The ban includes Scottish courses as well

I've done a few local TTs in the past, on national speed limit road's.

I can't see any justification for running events through 20mph zones, or any areas used by pedestrians in general. Head down, TT helmets, high speed and TT bars don't mix with other users; or it would seem other bikes as they're not generally allowed in sportives.

Agree, they shouldn't be anywhere near pedestrians

TTing has been slowly dying for a number of years.

What should be incredibly simply becomes more and more complex every year. Excessive marshalling, excessive signage, excessive regulation. Still, tis just a sign of the times really.

They even cocked up the road bike TT category by not making it equivalent to BC legal.

I'm struggling to think of any  TT courses in Scotland that go through 20mph zones so it's not really going to be much of an issue here at least.

20mph zones tend to mean road ends, junctions, parked cars, pedestrian crossings etc so not IMO suitable for racing on.

Personally I do not think these should be on open roads at all.  Risks to the riders are real (although I guess you sign up for that)  and inconvenience to other road users as well

In the north of Scotland the time trials are run through British cycling not CTT. No doubt the same decision will be made by BC soon. It makes sense. I did see that highland council are reverting some 20mph back to 30 limits so that may save some courses.

Personally I do not think these should be on open roads at all.

The only reason that TT was ever big in the UK was a ban on mass start racng on public roads back in the day. Whilst I sometimes wonder at the sense of riding head down along your local trunk road, the demise of club TTs would be a bit of a loss to cycling, if not the broader community.

I don't think TTing is going to die completely but it will become more niche than it already is with fewer and fewer courses... This is also going to be a problem for road races that have courses that go through 20mph zones too.

Personally I do not think these should be on open roads at all. Risks to the riders are real (although I guess you sign up for that) and inconvenience to other road users as wel

Whether they should or shouldn't be, i don't see why TTers would WANT them to be. For example there's like Abingdon airfield near us that holds Crits etc.. That's where i'd be running the TT if it were me, massive wide open track, pretty flat, no traffic, that would be my preference as a rider.

I used to TT alot in the 90's and I can't think of any Cheshire/Lancashire courses that would be in a 20, or indeed anywhere near a built up residential zone. Ideally courses are no-where near lots of traffic etc, it just slows you down. 

It's pretty clear you shouldn't run a TT along a 20mph road for any substantial time, when the fastest riders will be averaging 30. So it depends how rigorous CTT want to get - if it's zero tolerance for even 1m of 20mph limit that would indeed be a disaster, but surely this is not what is being tabled?
Many of the safest and fastest (so most popular) DC courses have short sections of minor road start which could be affected - the R25 in S Wales, fastest 25 in the UK, is like this (although I believe it is currently out of action with long term roadworks). I did the national ten this year in Newcastle on a similar route, short one third of a mile onto a DC. And that's just short stuff, 12 and 24 hour TTs, which plenty of hardcore folk are still interested in riding, would be a nightmare to route.
I think you have to recognise that some of TT decline in popularity is regression to the mean, though. Nowhere on earth has a time-trial heritage like the UK, we are completely weird outliers. It's still incredibly popular, relatively speaking. But if you've grown up with that and experienced how numbers of riders and courses have declined then obviously that is a sad thing, and you'd want to try and do something about it.

As mentioned plenty of 20 mph zones round here. A regular course is round loch leven, there are hardly any pedestrians to be seen on that course and not many cars either. Most of the courses we ride are very quiet traffic wise, and feel no less dangerous than any other time out on the bike.  We don’t have the opportunity for using many circuits round here, there is knock hill and the local cycle track but I can’t see a tt on them being particularly appealing to anyone tbh

I should add that none of these 20mph stretches I’ve ridden on go though busy pedestrian areas. Which I agree would be a recipe for disaster. And likewise anyone who rides with their head down should be disqualified immediately. I genuinely don’t think  tt is any more dangerous for riders or pedestrians than any other form of road riding, 

that said, whilst a shame I can say I’m probably on the side of the CTT on this one purely as it’ll provide less ammunition to the anti cycling brigade 

In the north of Scotland the time trials are run through British cycling not CTT<br />

are you sure? We always enter our regional series though the CTT site and out club is affiliated to it. Either way you are right BC will likely follow suit. 

It’s pretty clear you shouldn’t run a TT along a 20mph road for any substantial time, when the fastest riders will be averaging 30. So it depends how rigorous CTT want to get – if it’s zero tolerance for even 1m of 20mph limit that would indeed be a disaster, but surely this is not what is being tabled?<br />

think that’s what is being proposed. The courses I’m referring to have short sections, many that you wouldn’t even be doing 20 mph in (uphill, 30 yards before a 130 degree turn etc etc) which rule out the entire route 

I’d personally like to see a little discretion allocated to the organizers. As you say, clearly doing 30 mph through a town isn’t appropriate 

Surely a 20 zone is no different to a 30 zone, did folk worry about what speed a TT might be doing thru a 30 previously?

inconvenience to other road users

Does this apply to all cycling or only when people are trying to go fast?

Surely a 20 zone is no different to a 30 zone, did folk worry about what speed a TT might be doing thru a 30 previously?<br />

it’s a fair point actually, although I think it’s fair to say that most courses with 30 zones would have very few riders actually hitting 30 mph through them, at least that’s true of the ones I ride. Certainly whilst I regularly hit 30 mph on a tt bike,  I can’t think of any points I’m doing it in a 30 zone. Pretty much the entire field are averaging over 20, even on a sporting course however

Does this apply to all cycling or only when people are trying to go fast?<br />

indeed, a very odd thing to say. Ignoring the 20 mph issue for a moment why am I, on a tt bike, causing any more inconvenience than any other cyclist on the road?

Personally I do not think these should be on open roads at all. Risks to the riders are real (although I guess you sign up for that) and inconvenience to other road users as wel<br />Whether they should or shouldn’t be, i don’t see why TTers would WANT them to be. For example there’s like Abingdon airfield near us that holds Crits etc.. That’s where i’d be running the TT if it were me, massive wide open track, pretty flat, no traffic, that would be my preference as a rider.

Can't think of anything worse.
I've done a TT at Croft motor racing circuit and multiple laps is boring. The course is boring with every corner bar the complex being flat out and the complex does not require slowing much. It is really well attended and should be applauded for this as it gives an entry point for anyone from 4year olds upwards.

Our clubs "10ish" evening series course is engaging and tricky to pace due to the terrain.
I don't do and our club stopped promoting dual carriageway TTs years ago. Barring the Xmas Day one which used a section dual but it was Xmas Day and it has lights on now so is no use.

It's not just TTs though.

A village near here runs the 70 year old Victor Berlemont Trophy Road Race.

It used to be 120 miles, via 7 laps, and 7 times up a reasonably steep hill.

This year, due to the 20mphs on the routes, it's changed.

The new 20mph limits in Woodcote & Goring mean we have to use the shorter course without Flint Hill. 

To me, that's a shame. Less climb, less distance, devalued course.

indeed, a very odd thing to say. Ignoring the 20 mph issue for a moment why am I, on a tt bike, causing any more inconvenience than any other cyclist on the road?

Because you are head down flat out not giving way to others and there is a person doing this every minute (???) for however long it takes the TT to pass.
Say someone like me is going for a pootle along the same road.  Every minute I am going to be passed by someone who will not slow and pause to make it a safe overtake but will just blast past on corners, when cars are coming the other way etc etc
Maybe its just a theoretical issue rather than real?
I guess my opinion is coloured by multiple occasions of club runs / chain gangs behaving appallingly on the road.  I have been forced off the road by folks racing on open roads and on cyclepaths.  I almost crashed into a marshal once that was trying to guide me into a food stop or something.  He was standing in the middle of the cycle path and tried to make me go into an area that the racers were going into when I was just out for a spin and wouldn't get out of my way.
I do not think any racing should occur on open roads - cycling, driving or running

Its not just the one person tho is it?  Its multiple folk

Personally I do not think these should be on open roads at all. Risks to the riders are real (although I guess you sign up for that) and inconvenience to other road users as well

If there were more closed circuits, they'd be used - but they are few and far between, and cost money that a relatively small participation sport can't afford. But TTs are no riskier than any other road ride, and less inconvenient to have cyclists at 20-30mph than 10-20.

You can't run an open road event where riders are going faster than a speed limit that has been set for the safety of all, that's just Rule #1. I can see some argument for local discretion if the speed will be below 20mph due to it going uphill, but it's going to have to be very steep to guarantee no one turns up on the night and smashes it. Imagine turning away the National TT champ but allowing all the club regulars out on a course....

Because you are head down flat out not giving way to others

Normal rules of the road apply and marshalls are there at junctions to stop (or disqualify) riders who are breaking them. Which makes us very unpopular with the head down, brain out brigade.

Entry numbers are down so I do reckon TT events are on their way out... certainly in Scotland, just not picking up much after the pandemic.

~Fair enough more cash but having been on the receiving end of really bad behaviour from racers on the road and on cyclepaths / canal towpath - (yes the rat runners were racing on canal towpaths in a chaingang)  as well as awful behaviour from club cyclists in a bunch on the road

How is marshalling going to stop the overtaking of other cyclists in unsafe places?  Again not TTers but I have had this happen to me more than once - with no warning .  Just blasting past on bends.

Its just my opinion.  I do not think open roads are the right place for any sort of racing

Other opinions are available

Tj, I’m afraid you are talking absolute nonsense

If we pass you we’d give plenty of room, and likely far safer and more space given than being overtaken by a car. Likewise Going over the line on a corner is instant disqualification, which is rigorously enforced. Hence why it’s very much a theoretical problem

I can guarantee pretty much any time you ride your bike on the road you are more of an inconvenience to other road users than me on my tt bike, maybe we should ban all cycling in town to not inconvenience the queue of folks behind you. And whilst at it ban pootling around in the countryside to avoid a queue of cars traveling at 15 mph behind you..

...no time trials can be held on routes with 20 mph limits. Whilst the speed limits don’t apply to cyclists...

Don't they?

tpbiker
I am talking from real experience of things that have actually happened to me.  I have had bunches passing me within inches on corners.  I have been run off the road by folk racing in inappropriate places.  MY expeierince of club and racing cyclists is uniformly negative<br /><br />You know how strongly I defend riders rights normally.

Likewise Going over the line on a corner is instant disqualification,

great - so on left hander when I am within a foot of the centre of the road  how are you going to pass?  Is every inch of the route marshalled?

also if I have more than a car or two behind me and no safe place to pass I will stop to let them past

PCA - nope - speed limits do not apply to bicycles

~Fair enough more cash but having been on the receiving end of really bad behaviour from racers on the road and on cyclepaths / canal towpath – (yes the rat runners were racing on canal towpaths in a chaingang) as well as awful behaviour from club cyclists in a bunch on the road

Because you are head down flat out not giving way to others and there is a person doing this every minute (???) for however long it takes the TT to pass.

Tell me you have never time trialed without telling me you have never time trialed/don't appear to have a clear grasp of what a time trial is.

I've spent more time held up by old people pootling to the shops than I have by these menace time trailers.

Let's ban them

great – so on left hander when I am within a foot of the centre of the road

Eh ?

I am talking from real experience of things that have actually happened to me<br />

but by your own admission these aren’t time trialists. They are just idiots on bikes in other disciplines 

Only accidents I can remember hearing of involving tt events on open roads is when a rider is hit by a car, usually from behind by a driver not paying attention . It’s not the competitors that are dangerous 

Does this apply to hillclimbs run under CTT? Because that will make course selection a PITA as they're far more likely to be in a village, and far less likely to be doing >20mph.

Whether they should or shouldn’t be, i don’t see why TTers would WANT them to be. For example there’s like Abingdon airfield near us that holds Crits etc.. That’s where i’d be running the TT if it were me, massive wide open track, pretty flat, no traffic, that would be my preference as a rider.

Whilst I can see your rationale, why not just go the whole way and transfer to track individual pursuit / time trial if you're going to remove any of the variables like hills, crosswinds, etc, etc by just running out and back down a runway?

TT'ing in its essence is riding a road-ish bike on roads from A to B* as quickly as possible, something else isn't a "TT".

*yes B is typically within a few hundred meters of A and the route approximately circular for logistical reasons.

great – so on left hander when I am within a foot of the centre of the road how are you going to pass? Is every inch of the route marshalled?

This seems like a bit of a hypothetical stretch, TT bikes handle like nothing else, because no one else would put up with the way they handle. If you're having to take the corners as wide as possible, they're probably braking for them too.

But on the 2nd point, yes for an open TT marshals would be watching the dangerous corners/roundabouts etc and people are regularly DQ'd.

Im taking the corner wide for visibility not speed.  The road position that gives you most visibility and allows cars to see you for the greatest distance is out near the centre line on left handers as you enter the corner

Im taking the corner wide for visibility not speed. The road position that gives you most visibility and allows cars to see you for the greatest distance is out near the centre line on left handers as you enter the corner

Yeah I'll be going up the inside of you if your riding slowly and obstructively on a signed open course tt event.

Probably get disqualified but it'd be the safest place to pass a rolling road block

but by your own admission these aren’t time trialists. They are just idiots on bikes in other disciplines

so IME club riders ride like idiots, the rat run racers rode like idiots but you tell me TTers never do?

Ok

I think there maybe two things here.  I see ERC out on the roads of east lothian and they have a well deserved reputation for inconsiderate riding and also if you are used to riding in bunches a foot of space seems plenty whereas if you are not its really unpleasant to have a bunch come past a foot from your bar end

1.5 m passing room?

Ive given my reasons and remember I usually am very supportive of riders rights.  Ij ust do not believe any racing on open roads in any form is appropriate

Other opinions are available

Trailrat - or you could obey the highway code and wait until its safe to pass?  You make my point for me.  Your need for speed trumps my safety. 

This is also going to be a problem for road races that have courses that go through 20mph zones too.

For a road race to be legal it would have a TRO (Traffic Restriction Order) in place, either for rolling road closures or phased closures round the route. As part of that TRO speed limits are suspended. It's part of the regs that came in to allow road racing for cars a few years ago. Sportives will have issues with public perception though, despite them not being races and speed limits not being legally enforceable for bicycles.

funnily enough, in 5 years of tt riding I’ve so far managed to avoid a collision with another cyclist bimbling along on the middle white line, corner or otherwise..

Either I’ve been exceptionally lucky, have tremendous road awareness and bike handling skills, or perhaps most likely, folks don’t tend to ride like that round here

if the powers that be think that driving through an area at 30mph is no longer safe, it seems fair that riding a fast bike quickly through the same area, at maximum effort, probably not fully aware and probably not covering the brakes is also deemed unsafe. I don't have any issues with this - there's plenty of loops which wouldn't cross a 20 limit, so can just run on one of those instead

tpbiker
Free Member
funnily enough, in 5 years of tt riding I’ve so far managed to avoid a collision with another cyclist bimbling along on the middle white line, corner or otherwise..

Either I’ve been exceptionally lucky, have tremendous road awareness and bike handling skills, or perhaps most likely, folks don’t tend to ride like that round here

I think it's just TJ that rides like that 🙂

I see ERC out on the roads of east lothian and they have a well deserved reputation for inconsiderate riding and also if you are used to riding in bunches a foot of space seems plenty whereas if you are not its really unpleasant to have a bunch come past a foot from your bar end<br />

so surely you should be arguing for general bunch riding being banned on open roads? <br /><br />

Your need for speed trumps my safety.

Ride like a plonker ona. Signposted* TT course win stupid prizes.

Lucky in 20 years of doing tt I've never come up behind a member of the public riding like they are in the isle of man tt on a Honda cub90

*Every entrance to the course and junction gets a sign in an event officiated by a regulatory body. Everything else isn't a time trial - no matter how much other cyclists using your road not time trialing enranges you

Whilst I largely agree with that, i personally don’t think other road users should have to alter their own behaviour because there is a race on. The signs are there to warn them to look out for riders and take care, nothing more

that said,  tj’s road positioning certainly isn’t the norm in my exp!