[Closed] Is Enduro really Enduro

That is not what enduro racing is. But there are specific events that do something more like what you describe, like the Tour De Ben Nevis.

Enduro is what it is.

You seem to want an endurance race?

I think the transitions should be time limited with penalties for lateness. But relaxed enough to give people time to take pads on/off. Might force people to ride smaller bikes with more efficient tyres which in turn may reduce the need for ever increasing gnar levels.

Think i'm very much in the minority though so flame away 🙄

You've raised a good point op, I must say I'm quite surprised nobody has asked the question of what 'enduro' is previously.

Or suggested the inclusion of walking sections.

I think there's an appetite for that type of race structure and some events approach it. Some mates did the epic cymru a year or two back and that sounded like a pretty all-round set of stages - some uphill timetrials.
You must need to be quite creative in the timing - beating someone by 30secs in an enduro stage would usually mean quite a significant difference in ability. Up a hairy-arsed hike a bike mountain you could be talking differences of hours.

The transitions in the enduros I've done have been a charade, tbh, as far as the cut-offs go. You could push a DH bike round if you got a wiggle on. I think organisers have no appetite for turfing paying customers off the race on the transitions.

I think liaison sections should be timed with penalties for early or late arrival, the same as a motor rally.

Enduro1 used to have cutoffs for transitions and penalties for late arrival. I had a bit of a shocker at the last triscombe round and arrived at most stages with about 30s recovery before racing the stage.

I didn't do very well.

Thanks so far for the response, and I don't mean an endurance race as such, but maybe some sections that require skill to climb over large rocky sections with penalties for putting a foot down, But at the end of the day what is Enduro if its not an abbreviation of Endurance

enduro
/?n?dj??r??,?n?dj??r??/
noun
noun: enduro; plural noun: enduros
a long-distance race for motor vehicles or bicycles, typically over rough terrain, designed to test endurance.

Fully timed of that kind is endurance, which can also confusingly be called Enduro in race events.

I'd call the above All Mountain Endurance.

Or MTB Marathon?

core - Member

I think liaison sections should be timed with penalties for early or late arrival, the same as a motor rally.

Sometimes they are... But thing is, it adds complexity for everyone, it can add some difficulties if the seeding isn't perfect (and it never is), and in the end there's not really much benefit. It takes so much pressure off as a timing marshall when you're not also herding riders...

Some people think it makes an event more pro but mostly I just think it's a pain in the cock.

He has point. Enduro is a term taken from motorcycling where it means a long event, all of which is timed with most sections having a maximum time before penalties plus some flat out sections for tie breaks. Proper cycle enduros did have some of this. What's laughably called enduro nowadays is nothing of the sort. Its more like an motor cycle motocross where you go flat out for a bit then rest. Tough in its own way but not enduro. Its the name really. Beats me why the term downhill enduro didn't stay so that proper endurance events could use the term enduro more correctly.
As to why the new version doesn't have timed up hills. Same as the rest of modern society. Most people want instant gratification having had it handed to them on a plate and very cleverly commercial organisations gave realised this. Just like McDonald's have or next day delivery companies.
Fashions change. At the moment its all about being "different" so everyone joins the same gang. Common sense has nowt to do with it. Look at gears. Currentlyeople ditch the simplest most reliable bit of a bike, the front mech, and add a complicated, vulnerable and long one at the back. Makes no sense but nor does the world.
Enduros are nothing of the sort but that's popular.

Enduro1 used to have cutoffs for transitions and penalties for late arrival. I had a bit of a shocker at the last triscombe round and arrived at most stages with about 30s recovery before racing the stage.

Ha! That was my first enduro and mirrors my experience exactly! That was also my favorite enduro. The timed transitions made it feel like a proper race and added a sense of urgency.

Every other enduro I've done hasn't had timed transitions and has felt a bit like a half day by comparison.

Needs longer for lunch and I'll be in.

Well there is some thought on this out there and I thank everyone who has contributed, and its certainly got me thinking I might have a look at running an Enduro race around my localish area Coniston Cumbria towards the end of August so keep yeh ears open and your thoughts rolling in.

Once again thanks, Garry

mattsccm - Member

Beats me why the term downhill enduro didn't stay so that proper endurance events could use the term enduro more correctly.

What's wrong with "endurance"?

Ukge had penalties for not making transitions

Anyway is it 2014 again?? I think this question has been asked a few times

As it is, it's simply downhill with a walk in-between, not too unlike golf 😉

But surely as fifeandy notes time limits and penalties would help keep Enduro, as the original concept and not become downhill as the bikes get bigger.

As it is, it's simply downhill with a walk in-between, not too unlike golf

Ha ha ha ha! 😀

As suggested above, a timed short techy climb mixed with the usual stages could be good!

Also agree there being some form of minimum transition time before accruing penalties. It would really limit the advantage of semi-DH bikes and full kit which pushes some of the races towards being inaccessible.

Did BES not do penalties for transitions too? ( At ukge the BC commissar's struggled to enforce them tho)

It's also enforced at Ews too

Do people not know this ?

Enduro1 did the odd uphill stage, they were shit, especially the round at Aston
They also used to do trials sections with penalties for dabbing too!

Did BES not do penalties for transitions too? ( At ukge the BC commissar's struggled to enforce them tho)

It's also enforced at Ews too

Do people not know this ?

What was wrong with the uphill stage on Enduro 1 you mention? Too bland, too easy etc?

Too hard!

Straight off a stage, then told you had a 'special' stage up the fire road climb

As much as it may shock some climbs on the whole are pretty boring, ( there I said it) especially when you're at a bike park

Agreed most cuttoffs are quite slack, some of the ukge ones could be tough especially at the end of a long loop, making that last stage could be a killer.

They also go to pot when there's any kind of hold up, so if there is a crash and a stage gets stopped till the injured person is off then it becomes almost impossible to reschedule a few hundred racers.

It's just a name. It is what it is, and becoming XC-plus would be the death of it.

Im going to push for this true Enduro race at the end of August make it a charity event for cancer reasearch UK a worthy cause if ever there was one.

So anyone interested in helping give me a shout and get involved. i'll look at posting a page on my website [url= http://www.footonthemountain.co.uk ][/url] with info as I can get it.

Cheers all

[quote=wrecker ]It's just a name. It is what it is, and becoming XC-plus would be the death of it.

better than DH-retirement?

#nevergofullenduro

3rd response Andy? You're getting quicker, one of these days you'll be the first to bite on an Enjooooro thread. 😆

better than DH-retirement?

The name "Enduro" has been hotly disputed since its beginning. It's already used for other events and only makes things confusing but we are stuck with it now so just treat it as another label.

A few EWS races have compulsory hike-a-bike sections on the transition. This is more difficult to include in UK races as most venues don't have the landscape to require hiking.

Enduro races do have cut off times on the transitions, but many grassroots events have decided not to use them as it can mean that you are split up from your mates all day.

Finally, I don't think that harsher transition times will ever result in smaller travel bikes being used as at the end of the day the racing is all done downhill and as long as you can get up that hill on the bike, then it will be optimized for riding down. Timed uphills and downhills are essentially marathon races.

In the FoD Enduro is a 10 mile XC loop you get to ride four times 🙂

The name "Enduro" has been hotly disputed since its beginning.

Has it really, though? A few STWers, who've never ridden one anyway and have sworn off ever doing so, isn't really even a dispute. Around here we have Bike Rallies and Enduros, they're the same thing. No one really gives a shit. We ride them, have fun, the end. And, some stages may even contain a tech climb or two 😯

That said, when people say that they need an Enduro bike for the Enduro riding they do, when what they really mean is 'a bike' for 'pootling around the local woods'... oooh, then you'll see the steam shooting from my ears 😉

It should be more like adventure racing. Ideally for some stages you'd be carrying a kayak over a mountain in the dark while wearing compression socks. And crying.

Spyshot of the 2018 Specialized Enduro:

[img] [/img]

I was an enthusiastic motorcycle enduro racer when I lived in the UK.

The winner was who had the least penalties from the link sections & then it came down to the total of the special sections.

Depending on your class, the shorter the time allowances were for the link sections before penalties were applied. Links weren't typically quite so technical but certainly were expected to be a challenge (or you were in the wrong class).

It's a fantastic format & I'd really like to ride some MTB equivalent events.

So we've established that enduro means enduro, but what does that really mean? Hard enduro? Soft enduro? And what does the demise of the British Enduro Series mean for red white and blue enduro?

Funny this..most of the Enduro events I've done have been timed on teh downhill sections (and placing comes from that) but you DO have a limit on the transition.
I.e if you are really slow and turn up late for your DH section, you get penalty points (extra time added).

ard rock wasn't like this. Not sure what I prefer..

DrP

It's a fantastic format & I'd really like to ride some MTB equivalent events.

What you've described is pretty much what the old Enduro1 format was - and I assume the UKGE, EWS etc.

The transitions were not just fireroads, they included fun singletrack, and the transition time was shorter for the elite class than the sport etc. Being late was something like a 10 second penalty per min.

Funny this..most of the Enduro events I've done have been timed on teh downhill sections (and placing comes from that) but you DO have a limit on the transition.

I've struggled to find any now which have timed transitions. I know the BES did. I can understand why organisers get rid of them as I can imagine its a huge headache to sort out, but I do feel it added so much more to the day.

The trouble with timing the transitions, and them counting towards toward the race time, is that the races would be won and lost on the climbs.

E.g. If you are 5% faster than someone over a 3 min DH stage, your 9 secs up.

If someone is 3% faster than you over a 30 min climb, no amount of 3 min DH stages are going to help you over come that. So folk would be charging up the climbs, then mince down, hoping not to crash.

The trouble with timing the transitions, and them counting towards toward the race time, is that the races would be won and lost on the climbs.

The EWS format is that transition times don't count towards the race time, unless you go over the limit. So if the transition time is 10mins, and it takes you 5mins, there is no benefit to you. However, if it took you 12mins, then you may get a 10 second penalty for instance (5 seconds per minute late)

The name "Enduro" has been hotly disputed since its beginning.

Has it really, though?

Perhaps not so much on STW but there was a lot of debate early on, particuarly from DH guys like Peaty.

Interestingly almost the exact same conversation as this thread was being had over 4 years ago when it was all kicking off: [url= http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Beginners-Guide-to-Enduro-What-the-hell-is-it-2012.html ]Pinkbike article and comments[/url]

[quote=kiksy ]It's a fantastic format & I'd really like to ride some MTB equivalent events.
What you've described is pretty much what the old Enduro1 format was - and I assume the UKGE, EWS etc.
The transitions were not just fireroads, they included fun singletrack, and the transition time was shorter for the elite class than the sport etc. Being late was something like a 10 second penalty per min.

It also requires a high level of organisation. I've raced two EWS' with timed transitions, you have a set start time for each stage to the exact second. What that meant was very little queuing at each stage and it was all very organised.

On a non-timed event you have folk arriving at stage starts randomly, even with staggered starts at the very beginning. Needs much more strict organisation and would really reduce entries in my opinion

Enduro is so yesterday, it's all about Endooro now.

limits on transition time are fine but tend to go to shit so needs good organisation.

Timing any uphill stage would be shite and I suspect you would get sod all entries as I'm not sure who you would appeal to. If I wanted to be timed racing up hill I'd just race XC as that is the proper test of fitness. If I didn't want to ride uphill I'd race DH.

Enduro works as it is in its own sort of way. Enduro is just meant to be a race that mirrors how most people ride. Up then go fast on the downs.

No problem with introducing technical downhill stages as it should be progressing peoples riding. Even the odd piece of flat sprint.

kimbers - Member

Enduro1 did the odd uphill stage, they were shit, especially the round at Aston
They also used to do trials sections with penalties for dabbing too!

Worse race I have ever done but some of the skills sections enduro 1 used to run were good.

but the required a judge and not really very enduro.

My definition of enduro: Ride to the top of the hill, race to the bottom.

tomhoward - Member

The trouble with timing the transitions, and them counting towards toward the race time, is that the races would be won and lost on the climbs.

Yup. In fact not even on climbs, a lot of people think that even a long pedally stage can turn a race excessively. Not so much that "pedalling isn't part of racing" or whatever, but that by definition a long stage has more impact on timing than a short. But there's other ways, you could weight the stages so that it averages out, if you really wanted it- so a minute on a 20 minute climb would count the same as 15 seconds on a 5 minute stage.

But that all gives up on simplicity for, well, for a climbing stage that I think most people don't want.

The original tweedlove enduro has 2 long timed climbs but you could drop IIRC your slowest 2 stages. I don't remember how it all really worked, whether it was your longest stage time (so it'd be the climbs) or your worst place, or what. But I beat Crawfy so who cares? 😆

OTOH the Fair City Enduro had a single steep sprint climb and it was actually hilarious- it was so short that it couldn't dominate the racing and it was interesting to do. Also it had a man at the top with a trumpet playing you home. Done right it can be a good addition.

(they also had a trials section in the park at the end which was good fun but too easily cheated- you could just ride round sections without penalty. OTOH it was a prime chance for everyone to see Joe Barnes' sportsmanship in action. And it had a deadly seesaw that if you rode it too fast, was essentially just a ramp into the sky, awesome)

The last KLL enduro had a stage that had 2 grim climbs in it, I think one was effectively a push for most of the field, the other became a push for a lot. It was pretty interesting though, I think a lot of riders just lost interest. From somewhere i produced some actual willpower and suffered the climbs but then charged on after and even though I flatted late in the stage I still pulled out a not-bad result. (I passed a couple of riders who were just trundling down, they'd let it beat them) It did define some people's results but I think mostly because they let it.