[Closed] Is Cadel Evans a winner we can believe in?

Yes, I beleive Cadel Evans is a real person.

I think he looks like a cartoon character if that helps?

probably clean

he's not french. so probably doped up to his comedy chin.

reckon he did. No way he was on testosterone....I mean listen to that voice. If he was on anything though it was a can of whoopass ! He is one hard gurning ba5tard !!! Air guitar, that'll be his second career I reckon !!

probably

c'mon, no fence sitting.

Yes or No. clean or doped?

I mean listen to that voice

Perhaps he found a performance enhancing property to helium.

clean.

probaby, maybe. impossible to be sure really. What was noticeable was that others seemed to drop below his level rather than him getting better...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/2011-tour-de-france-the-cleanest-in-recent-years

Unfortunately I don't think anyone who rides the Tour is clean.

edited without reading replies probably clean

LHS - Member
Unfortunately I don't think anyone who rides the Tour is clean.

Disagree. There are some clean riders. Whether the very top ones are is arguable but there are definitely some.

Define "Clean".

Is someone who takes an as yet undiscovered by WADA performance enhancing "supplement" clean?

Unfortunately I don't think anyone who rides the Tour is clean.

interesting. Is it the tour in particular, road cyclists, pro sportspeople in general or just the continual cycle of amazing performances followed by disappointing revelations that make you think that?

I would hope so. seeing as how few of the recent top ten finishers have not been found to be dopes its only a hope.

Seems to just be endemic within the sport nowadays, and people only stay "clean" by knowing how to work the system.

A bit harsh saying ALL riders, but I think the majority.

i guess SbZ has it right on the 'meaning' of clean

and muppetW has captured my mood "continual disappointing revelations"

Cram has just come out to say that bans for recreational drugs should be reviewed, i would go further and insist all tour riders drink and smoke everyday at lunch - proper tour that.

Clean.

Whilst I think that Voecklers efforts got my 'man of the tour' vote , Evans ride was pretty steadfast throughout, he was just always there or thereabouts and i dont think it was from doping up.

i know this may sound like a totally stupid question - but how exactly does 'doping' make you faster/quicker?? is it just a steroid type drug that gives you more muscle, or is it something totally different that allows you not to feel pain in your legs or something???

it definitely suggests cheating previous years - going from contador winning the last 3 (i think) to suddenly struggling? got to be something in that (other than injurys i guess)....

i mean these guys are super super fit, what sort of drug can make them even fitter? how is it possible?

and a cheat is a cheat - if you are found with a banned substance then you are a cheat in my mind - regardless of stories about it being in beef etc

I would hope so.

We're not doing hope here in this thread. We are doing black & white, yes or no. binary answers (this last one is not a call for clever IT related punnery).

Cheers LHS.

Is someone who takes an as yet undiscovered by WADA performance enhancing "supplement" clean?

The likelyhood of that is pretty minimal. Performance enhancing drugs cannot be discovered by some guy in a shed. Tends to require significant resources, a decent lab or 7, and some good research personelle. Way outside the budget and scope of most pro tour teams. Most of the agents are known to science, if you can't test direct, you can detect masking agents.

Plus there are only so many biological 'parameters' you can improve - which are tested.

The tricky one is blood autotransfusion. Harder to spot. You kinda need plod to find a fridge/car boot full of blood bags there really. It def is not systematic anymore.

Doping in training, or out of season, is possible. Risky, but possible, provided the half lives of the compounds you are using are known with some degree of confidence, plus of course, you know when you're [i]likely[/i] to be tested next. Plus you're open to refinements in testing - a la Contador.

Cadel - clean as an autoclaved kazoo.

i would go further and insist all tour riders drink and smoke everyday at lunch - proper tour that.

Nostalgia. Riding with two wine bottles on the bars, jumpers for jerseys, goggles for oakleys, spare tubs wrapped around the chest. The good ol' days.

I think he's clean.

He doesn't look like the kind of guy who has been doing drugs with the cool kids

one of only a few podiumists to never have been tainted (along with the schleck sisters who also display a lack of testosterone).

As boardman said Evans has been consistent in terms of physical performance, but bad luck (crashes/injuries) had an impact on his placings. Given how much this tour was geared to Mandy Schleck (lots of mountains, very little TT) I reckon Evans could do it again (aren't prologues typically ~70km, rather than the ~40km TT he still thrashed Mandy in?).

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/06/news/the-explainer-that-questionable-tour-de-france-podium_176880

Clean as a whistle. Probably. Maybe, on balance he might be. Hard as nails Aussie battler for a certainty.

Believing in pro-cyclists being on the level is a fool's errand - Cadel has a stirling reputation but against the backdrop of endemic doping no one should be shocked if he tested positive tomorrow.

anotherdeadhero - Member

"Is someone who takes an as yet undiscovered by WADA performance enhancing "supplement" clean?"

The likelyhood of that is pretty minimal

Pretty likely I would say - testers have always been one step behind the dopers - that the lesson from the balco affair - they were doping with untraceable stuff and only when someone shopped them and sent a syringe full of the stuff to the authorities was it found out.

Clean I reckon - it's his mental strength that usually carries him thrrough a tour and, as pointed out above, he's had a lot of bad luck in most of his previous TdF's, sso it's not like he's just come out of nowhere to win it.

Clean.

Would it be better TV if the doped riders all wore special armbands?

but how exactly does 'doping' make you faster/quicker

Generally they allow you to train harder and more often so you gain more muscle/get fitter. Its not a magic bullet though, you still have to put the working, more in fact. Some allow you to lose weight faster. Other forms, like blood doping replenish the oxygen in your blood so make you feel fresh again.

Contadors performance drop this year can be put down to him winning the Giro first - something he never normally does, as well as his injuries and crashes early in the tour.

Pretty likely I would say - testers have always been one step behind the dopers

Yeah OK, I'm probably being overly optimistic. I'd suggest 'WADA has always been one step behind the dopers' is better. Getting compounds with potential performance enhancing effects onto the WADA watch list is apprently tricky and time consuming.

Most honest people working in sports physiology etc don't sit around all day testing drugs for performance gains.

OK so far we have a pretty certain no, a lot of probably-maybe's and a couple of clean as a whistles. Given the general air of suspicion that normally follows a grand tour winner I think that is pretty good.

Cadel has a stirling reputation but against the backdrop of endemic doping no one should be shocked if he tested positive tomorrow.

Can you imagine if he did though, can't imagine Australians being very forgiving.

But hold on, Bertie never tested positive for owt for his two Tour wins previous to last year, did he?

So, as 'clean' as Cuddle was this year then.

So yes, it is possible to win a Grand Tour 'clean'; Bertie has proven this, hazzunt he?

This isn't a thread about what you can prove it's about what you believe. I was trying to gauge peoples perception of Evans.

But seeing as you have brought up Contador my perception is that he is far less likely to be clean than Evans.

[edit]
Haven't we done Contador quite a bit on here already though, no point going over old ground. We all believe what we believe and no one on an internet forum is likely to significantly alter that view. So probably best wait 'till November and let the system take it's slow progress towards a resolution.

whatnobeer - Member

but how exactly does 'doping' make you faster/quicker

Generally they allow you to train harder and more often so you gain more muscle/get fitter. Its not a magic bullet though, you still have to put the working, more in fact. Some allow you to lose weight faster. Other forms, like blood doping replenish the oxygen in your blood so make you feel fresh again.

Contadors performance drop this year can be put down to him winning the Giro first - something he never normally does, as well as his injuries and crashes early in the tour.

cheers that answers most my questions! the oxygen one is a good one - can see how that would definitely help....as for the legs and muscles, i can see how it would help to a degree - but these guys are super fit as it is, really are at the pinnacle of physical fitness a being can be ....

interesting to see that its quite common (being a non-roady i never really pay attention until this tour)....

does that mean people like wiggins and cavendish etc etc dope as well??

could see it being more beneficial especially to cav - with him needing the power more so for the sprints at the end....

if everyone dopes can it be classed as cheating? why not allow so much per rider 😆 you know, to make it fair and that 😆

I think the way the Tour went this year most of the riders were clean. It was so close and there was no insane sudden powerful breakaways at insane speeds (I don't include Andy Schlecks breakaway in that term).

Evans is a good winner, I still have my doubts about Contador, I'm willing to believe he rode this Tour clean though.

[img] [/img]

is hincapie varicose-doping?

these are small veins which have swollen/extended, so they are not normally so full of blood - the rest of his body has to maintain its blood levels, so does it increase blood production to fill these extra veins? is it giving him an advantage? (this is almost a serious question)

Elfin, difference between AC and cuddles is that AC has had alegations following him for years. Mixed up in Puerto, rode in two dirty teams, then got caught. Contrast Evans, nowt, not even a whisper.

It is possible I suppose. I was taken in by Landis, the sod 😡

does that mean people like wiggins and cavendish etc etc dope as well??

This isn't my personal view but I think that more people would be dubious of Wiggins than Cavendish particularly outside of the British Isles. his rise from time trail specialist to GC contender was viewed with some suspicion. Cavendish I would put alongside Evans in the very, very unlikely category.

if everyone dopes can it be classed as cheating? why not allow so much per rider

one of only a few podiumists to never have been tainted (along with the schleck sisters who also display a lack of testosterone).

Didn't Schleck, F. hand over a large wad of cash for a 'training plan' to an unkown source a couple of years ago (which may have turned out to be Mr Ferrari)?

Who cares, the fella is meant to be a complete c0ckend isn't he?

whomever said the schlecks were dope free -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A4nk_Schleck#Doping_allegations

doesnt mean they still do now but clearly a bank trasfer of 7000euros was proven a few years back to a doctor!

if everyone dopes can it be classed as cheating? why not allow so much per rider you know, to make it fair and that

You'd still have to test them to make sure one wasnt cheating more than the other!

Tbh, I think that its a lot cleaner than it used to be. No more team wide systematic doping like there used to be. It looks like there's been a change in the culture. Sure there are still people doing it, but cyclists are tested more often than any other athletes in the world (probably) so its bound to throw up more +'ve results.

The general opinion here is that all the Sky/British riders are clean, but as mentioned above, Wiggins is viewed with a bit of a suspicious eye after his rise to GC contender 2 years ago.

testers have always been one step behind the dopers

Not true. CERA. Nasty suprise for the dopers there and a good change in direction for the drug company who didn't want their product associated with cheats... There's talk about similar products having markers deliberately added to them (though no doubt a black market will rise which removes them/makes it without.

Clean! compare the times on the big climbs. Evans has actually dropped a tiny bit in performance, but others have fallen off cliffs by comparison. See the bike radar thread for more info
http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12791982

The verdict is more than likely the cleanest tour since about 89 (imo) 😉

Yes, I think Cadel was a clean winner.

And The Shreks are dirty losers 😀

Where was he on that list that was leaked a while ago, it was showing how the tour organisers had rated potential dopers.
IMO he's clean.

Elfinsafety - Member
But hold on, Bertie never tested positive for owt for his two Tour wins previous to last year, did he?

So, as 'clean' as Cuddle was this year then.

So yes, it is possible to win a Grand Tour 'clean'; Bertie has proven this, hazzunt he?

Elfy, no doubt you just want an argument so I'll leave it at this

My link earlier about the relative levels of riders and performances is for me good enough to believe that AC and AS (amongst many others) were doping previously. Also [url= http://blog.cyclekrazy.com/2009/05/vam-what-is-it/ ]google VAM[/url] as a measure of cycling performance at the TdF - there's been a consistent drop in VAM performance over the last few years as the EPO test, blood doping tests and biological profiles were introduced forcing the dopers to either stop or at worst use much less effective methods such as microdosing.

Added to that is the change to the way the TdF ran this year - for the first time in years, riders attacked and then paid for the efforts the next day - EPO, blood doping, etc is well known for not only improving overall performance but almost as significantly improving ability to recover.

I don't like Cadel at all. Charsma-free wheel-sucker.. But I think he is clean.

I've never believed Contador, Armstrong or Landis were clean.

Cav would be a pretty poor doper to come in outside the time limit twice. Not sure about Wiggins at all.

I'd like to think clean.

By the way, what does GC stand for? I'm assuming it means to win the yellow jersey, but I can't work out the acronym.

By the way, what does GC stand for? I'm assuming it means to win the yellow jersey, but I can't work out the acronym.

General Classification, as opposed to the Young Riders Classification, Points Classification or the Mountains Classification.

General classification.

I believe Armstrong is clean. Because it's nice to believe it. I believe Cadel is clean. Because it's nice to believe it. The fact that there's never been any conclusive evidence to suggest they aren't is not really relevant to me.

I feel sorry for the people who think everyone is cheating. I'd rather be inspired by people doing extraordinary feats with nothing more then what I have (apart from a slightly nicer bike, team of mechanics, support car, etc. etc.), even if it means being disappointed once in a while.

Being extremely cynical might mean you're right, but I bet I enjoy watching them fly up the mountains more.

Most normal people say General classification. Sean Kelly seems to always refer to it as the General Classement, which to me sounds a bit odd but I am willing to concede that he knows better.

Clean I reckon. TBH I didn't see anything that shouted drugs all tour utill the first Schleck attack. Kinda reminded me of the Vino episode.
Not saying owt or nowt, but oh the ironing.

Leaving the morality aside for a moment vino was proper entertaining though.

TBH I didn't see anything that shouted drugs all tour utill the first Schleck attack. Kinda reminded me of the Vino episode.

What hinted towards drugs for me this tour was when Andy said he didn't want Contador to get banned, as he wanted to win the tour "properly" ie: beat Contador. But everyone knows Contador is cheating, so why would you care if you beat him or not? Unless you're also on them..

I might just be reading too much into it though.

Cadel is an ex mountain biker and really want to like him, support him and agree he's clean ...

But like it's been said, he didn't shine as a star for me, he lacks character, seems to lack balls and I just can't picture him as a great. He's boring and races the percentages game just a little to much. Which actually probably means he's squeaky clean.

I disagree, though I thought that years ago. But the blokes always there. His Worlds victory is a fine example of that.
And he is a tough little ****er, think last years broken arm stage and this going after Gilbert on day one.
And TBF he did have his work cut out watching the brothers, it was two against one in every mountain stage
A good rider I reckon.

Assuming that Cadel is clean, is he the first ever rider to win the TdF without using performance enhancing drugs?

I'm sitting here in work and can't remember the sequence of who has won over the last few years, but on the whole the winners seem to have either been disqualified or admitted to doping later (a la Riis) or be under massive amounts of suspicion ( a la Armstrong).

(I'm talking about the actual person who stands on the podium at the end of the race, not the one who inherits the win after the winner is DQd.)

But everyone knows Contador is cheating

Do they?

What if he's actually not though? I mean, what if he's cleared?

What are you going to bitch and whine about then?

I believe Armstrong is clean. Because it's nice to believe it. I believe Cadel is clean. Because it's nice to believe it. The fact that there's never been any conclusive evidence to suggest they aren't is not really relevant to me.

Erm not even the fact that pretty much all of Armstrong's team-mates have bin found guilty of cheating? So, he was helped to win the Tour by riders who were cheats. What does that make of his 'victories'?

Remember Armstrong has never said he never doped, just that he 'never tested positive'....

Elfy, no doubt you just want an argument

Who, me? 😯

Never.

But seriously though; Contador has at least two Tour wins where he wasn't tested positive for any substances. So, that's two Tour wins 'clean' then. It is, so be quiet.

Plus he's a better rider than Cuddle or Schlepps will ever be.

Remember Armstrong has never said he never
doped, just that he 'never tested positive' ... .

he did actually. not that I believe him.

But seriously though; Contador has at least two
Tour wins where he wasn' t tested positive for
any substances. So, that's two Tour wins 'clean'
then. It is, so be quiet.

that's clearly proof 😉 I'll stand by the details I posted.

You can stand by a telephone box for all I care.

Munqe-chick - Member
one of only a few podiumists to never have been tainted (along with the schleck sisters who also display a lack of testosterone).

wasnt Frank Schleck linked to Operation Puerto ??? (paid Fuentes 7000 euro for training 'advice')

Evans is a hard b'stard , look at his worlds ride and the stade bianche stage of the giro last year in the pissing rain. Fleche this year and the way he chased AS down in the tour for over an hour , no help, didnt look for it with 10 GC contenders sat on his wheel. Top ride in Tirreno.

Also much talk of Sassi (RIP) only working with clean riders. They do exists, look at Mottet, Hampsten, Boardman. Look at the way Evans has always been there but not quite good enough. Look at the significantly slower times up the climbs this year.

Chuffed for Cadel. Top win , he's a bit weird but nails.

Instinct says - Clean.
I've got a feeling that a lot of decent riders this year were clean too ...

i think you will find that most riders are on something, it is a fine line between what is allowed and what is not. Exercise induced asthma is not unusual in the pro peleton and does allow the use of certain drugs. There have been vitamin injections in the past.

were riders riding with the rules this year i think on the whole yes, there will always be the odd rider who pushes the limits a bit too far.

CE was clean all along I reckon - rest too this year or at least much clean[b]er[/b]

Clean. Though I'm not completely confident about that, there seems a pretty good chance he is. If so, he's almost certainly the first ever clean winner of the TdF IMHO. Unless I've missed something, the difference between cuddles and the rest is that there's never even been any dodgy rumours about him.

mrmo - I'm sure that's right. I've a feeilng there's more hypothyroid sportsmen taking thyroxine than you'd imagine too, dunno about cyclists in particular though (I think deficiency's possibly a real effect of hard exercise but didn't look all that hard into it - just heard something said once)

I've always thought Evans was probably clean. There's a few comments about him probably being the only clean winner for years, what about Sastre? I've not seen anything about him and doping.

i hate cadel evans. that is all.

Unless I've missed something, the difference between cuddles and the rest is that there's never even been any dodgy rumours about him.

Oh, and that definitely proves he's clean, then? 🙄

What a lot of nonsense on this thread.

[i]Ooh the rider I like well he's nice so can't possibly be doping....[/i]

Idle Jon see article link in earlier post of mine reviewing past podiums. Though I don't think it mentions mandy schweppes paying fuentes which I've read elsewhere.
I'd like to think Gilberts amazing season was clean too as he has always been vocally anti and the way he duffed up the schweppes sisters at L-B-L.

Ooh the rider I like well he's nice so can't possibly be doping....

TBH I think Bertie was affected by all the media attention, all the negative vibes from the crowds, not to mention possibly being hungover from winning the Giro. If you take into account the time he lost on the first stage, through no fault of his own, and the fact he crashed and done his knee in, then tbh he had an amazing Tour to come in 5th. Take away the 1'30" he lost on Stage 1, and he'd have podiumed.

And I imagine he, of all people, mustuv bin clean. No way he'd even think about doping, not with all that going on. Surely not?

I'd like to see him cleared, then go on to win the Tour again, 'clean'. Then the haterz will have to shut up and find something else to bitch and whine about.

And I'd right laugh if Cuddle tested positive...

When you consider the huge leaps in research and information available to hone athletes via 'conventional' training methods incorporating diet, psychology and not to mention equipment, the lack of any real improvement or in many cases a decrease in performance, would lead me to the conclusion that most of the top guys are much cleaner than they used to be.

In saying that, I mean they are having to be so careful that any illegal enhancement is having a lesser and lesser effect to the point where the benefits/risk ratio makes doping non-viable.

I think Evans may actually be clean!

Elf - agreed, I think bertie was prob clean too this time and he's a bloody great cyclist, of course, but not way ahead like he'd seemed to be in the past

next year will be a (n even) better tour I think - hopefully they'll all stay off the drugs and they'll have a better idea of how hard they can push

(out of interest, on what grounds would you accept him being "cleared" - if he can't identify the beef source, what else would convince you ? I'll be bloody narked if he's let off due to lack of evidence or they say the level was too low to be performance-enhancing unless he can show how it got there "innocently")

Ooh the rider I like well he's nice so can't possibly be doping....

Not bitter at all. I just love a bit of pantomime, that's all. And the fact that Bertie winds some of you lot [i]right[/i] up.

He'll still be a better rider than Cuddle or Shlepps will ever be, and you know it.

And I'll still recognise his two 'clean' Tour wins even if he is found guilty. That's two more Tour wins than you'll ever have. If he has a poo, it would be 'Tour de France Winner' poo, whereas your poo is just poo.

Actually I was well pleased for Cuddle, but there you go.

When he's on the juice He'll still be a better rider than Cuddle or Shlepps will ever be when they're clean

And I'll still recognise his two 'clean' Tour wins even if he is found guilty.

Really! Or did he just have better drugs and wasn't caught.

IMO all previous results are virtually worthless, or at best devalued, of anyone who is caught.