[Closed] Is a two year ban long enough?

It may not be long enough (what would be) but it reflects the fact that it was an accident/driver error and appears to be inline with other sentences from similar circumstances.

The trouble is that any longer and she'd probably start driving illegally.

And she was rather unlucky (sic) to hit 'somebody', rather than just a 'nobody', otherwise she'd probably not even got that,

To be honest, I'm sure for her the worst possible sentence will be living with the guilt...

I would also like to bring to note the mild recklessness of racing on a main road in a full black strip. TT bikes running on main roads ought to carry lights as they are prone to being ridden in a somewhat full on manner and the A4 crazies out our way cane it across all roundabouts and it is up to the cars to avoid the accidents.

I don't know how you'd decide how long was 'long enough' i.e. how much of someone's liberty you'd swap for someone else's life. I do know I'm glad that it's decided by courts, not the family, friends or peers. My first instinct is that anyone who kills a cyclist should be locked up for a long, long time but you have to take into account that she didn't set out that day to kill anyone.

the OP implies she only got a 'ban' - the article doesn't mention a driving ban, just 21 months in jail?

It's also not just the time in jail - it's the fact that she'll have been to jail which will affect her in many ways even when she's out - eg getting jobs and so on.

It does seem in line with other sentences and I suppose the question you have to ask is if she was jailed for longer would that actually make it less likely that she would commit the same crime again? Probably not so then the sentence is right in a sense of being a deterrent and hopefully act as a reminder to people. Don't forget you're not talking about a criminal who sees going to jail as a part of the job (assuming of course that she isn't a regular jail-goer!) and won't be too fussed by it.

Its an awkward question you pose, this case has been all over my local news.

She certainly did not set out to kill a person.
The case has been heightened due to the dead mans title of major.
These roads should be coned for such events. or
The A1 should not be used for such events.
I feel the sentence is just enough as she came across a bit as if its "one of those things" Year and half is a good amount of time to think.

A friend of mine got 4 yr ban and 10 month jail for dangerous driving about 5 years ago

3 days after his test driving - took a corner too fast clipped a car going the other way and that crashed into the one following him. A little girl had her arm amputated and was left in a messed up way.

It was tragic all round - complete result of inexperience. He is now the slowest driver you could imagine, stops after 1 hr on the road for a break. the jail sentence achieved nothing at all and the judge actually said it was because he worked for his fathers building company and the sentence wouldn't effect employment prospects. He could have been building bush shelters or fitting kitchens into old peoples homes.

In this case I dont think the 2 yr ban is enough but i dont see the benefit of a custodial sentence.

carbon337 - [i]A 19-year-old motorist who hit a cyclist on the A1 in Cambridgeshire has been jailed for 21 months for causing death by dangerous driving[/i]

so she got longer than your mate...

I think the sentance is a p**s take. Cyclist,Major or not, she showed through either incompetence or ignorance a lack of attention while driving that cost someone there life, and a lifetime of hurt for their family and loved ones.

To get, ultimately, 12 months and a 2 year driving ban for it astounds me 🙄

To be honest, I agree with carbon, I cant see the benefit of her being sent to jail. Why COMPLETELY ruin 2 families lifes? I'd say that there is preety much no chance of her ever doing this again, and it can hardly serve as a detterent. Its not like people set out to kill someone in these cases. Yeah, ban her from driving, thats fair, but locking her up isnt in my honest opinion.

Another thing is, some cyclists dont help themselves. WHy have a race on a busy road, on a saturday morning? I stopped doing my local time trials as I thought they were far too dangerous, and if I ever ride on the road now, I wear VERY bright colours.

I'm not trying to cause offence at all here, its just what I think

He got twice the ban than her but didnt kill anyone, she go 21 month but is only serving 10 month in custody which is the same as he did.

I wouldn't like to compare the two at all as both there were tragic consequences and in both situations to innocent parties.

ANother example of random sentencing for motoring offenses.

I stopped following that case a while back but didn't other competitors reports she'd past them dangerously close before (the implication being she was trying to intimidate them)? On a clear day you don't just hit someone from behind, and the black strip is irrelevant - this wasn't a race at night.

I used to do a lot of TTs and although never had an accident myself I heard about a lot of incidents in races I was doing (mostly people leaning out of cars and deliberately pushing cyclists off or deliberately cutting them up). Granted TTers can be a danger to themselves and others at roundabouts but that wasn't a factor in this case.

Tricky one this I always think. For me the issue is how do the penalties deter and prevent the bad/dangerous driving which is the cause of these tragedies. If there was intent (ie a boy racer driving recklessly to get a kick) then a hefty prison sentence is justified, but if not and it's simply down to inexperience or inattention then a short or suspended sentence is preferable. There's no point sending someone to prison simply for revenge.

I would however introduce life bans for anyone who injures or kills a cyclist. The life bans could be operated like life-sentences where the offender gets a license to drive again which can then be arbitrarily taken away for any minor offence.

I'm in two minds on the sentence- on the one hand she seems to be getting off lightly for what she's done, but then like others I'd question the value of prison in cases like this. But I don't think she should ever drive again, and the fact that she will be able to is a reflection of the way that the car comes first in this country.

I'm quite surprised at the custodial sentence, its fairly steep, though in these sort of cases, I think a more useful sentence would be a life driving ban, with jail for the inevitable time when the offender is caught driving unlicensed.

Knowing that road well I wouldn't ever want to ride on it through choice. I cringe a little when I see some of the roads used by testers, I only did a few years worth but still witnessed two deaths.
I think under the circumstances testers are sometimes a little arrogant and wrapped up in their own little highly focused world. I also don't think organisers do enough to warn motorists of whats ahead. I for example would know when one 'racer' is about to pull out without looking to overtake, a nineteen year old lass might not.
Lets be honest we've all seen loads of testers risk death at roundabouts and lane changes for the return stretch.
Yes the very distinctive jet black.

WHy have a race on a busy road, on a saturday morning?

Because unfortunately our backwards TT community revolves around fast times above all else.

Not that that has any bearing on this case unless you think rape victims are asking for it if they're showing any flesh. The fact is drivers are responsible for driving safely and this driver clearly wasn't.

So sad that someone loses their life, and the driver has to live with the guilt for the rest of her life. I almost never cycle on the road unless I have to, too dangerous.
If one of my family was killed by a motorist I would probably want the culprit to pay as high a price as possible in my initial outrage.
If I hit a cyclist and killed them I don't know how I would cope and what effects it would have on my mental health. A jail sentence wouldn't make me think about it more or repent more, just have a massive impact on my family's life. Your view depends which side of the fence you sit!

To be honest, I'm sure for her the worst possible sentence will be living with the guilt...

Agreed. Two years is long enough IMO.

If anything, I'd rather see tougher sentences for more minor incidents.

My friend was knocked off his bike the other day. He went over the roof of a car that pulled onto a roundabout when he had right of way.

The driver is unlikely to even be prosecuted and my mate could have been crippled or died.

Maybe the driving ban is fair but not the sentence. People don't take enough care on the roads and she should have received a longer sentence for driving like a retard. She may not have set out to kill someone but if you don't concentrate whilst driving that's what you'll end up doing. I'm surprised more cyclists aren't killed by crap drivers. How many times do you see motorists actually bother to signal when overtaking cyclists or give them sufficient room? Then there's all those idiots like Clarkson who slag off cyclists for getting in the way.

I was forced to think about the whole car/bike thing whilst filling in that IAM survey yesterday, and the conclusion I came to was that the driving test needs to be a helluva lot tougher. A section including bike (engined and pedalled) awareness can only be a very good idea.

Not sure how the mechanics of it would work - I remember sitting in a simulator, but it was just like playing a computer game and in no way prepared me for real life driving....

Lack of education seems to be the main culprit - many people simply don't know how to overtake a bike - they just keep their speed up and hope they'll miss you.

All very sad.

My friend was knocked off his bike the other day. He went over the roof of a car that pulled onto a roundabout when he had right of way.

Yup I've had that. I've also had someone turn right across me resulting in a head-on collision with me rolling across their bonnet and windscreen. Luckily I was uninjured, however in both cases the attitude of the driver was the classic SMIDSY excuse. And although they were very apologetic, they didn't quite grasp the potential seriousness of it until I started ranting about how I could've been killed and how my kids would have felt after being told their dad was dead because some idiot wasn't looking where they were going (I always find guilt tripping of this type works quite well by the way!).

It's this lack of recognition of the seriousness of simple mistakes or inattention whilst driving which needs to be tackled by both education and deterrance, and I don't think it's ever going to happen until they start handing out hefty bans for either life or 10-20 years in addition to fines and prison sentences.

All comes down to most car drivers thinking that bikes aren't part of the flow of traffic and instead are just borrowing part of the edge of the road that they aren't using themselves. At best cyclists are just features to swerve around, like a pothole.

And yes, the road was busy. With legitimate road users. Cyclists.

We need far harsher sentencing for crap driving that doesn't cause a death. Bans at 6 points, etc.

A jail term for killing someone will not be a deterrent for others because "it'll never happen to me". Having two of your mates not driving for 3 months because they drove like dicks will.

Something I'd add is its a myth that drivers who kill have their lives 'devastated with guilt'
I was surprised to learn that I know three people, one a local doctor, who have killed while behind the wheel. In all cases, they were back driving ASAP.
Now, I'm sure they feel y'know, really, really bad :roll:, but at the end of the day humans are compulsive self-deluders, and even the guiltiest will convince themself that "I might have made a mistake, but my family/important job doesn't deserve to suffer too by me not driving"
I'd like to think if I'd been responsible for a death, I would realise that it was proof my driving had been found wanting.

I would expect the jail time is more to do with the not guilty plea at the trial start. Other cyclists has given statements about her lack of care and attention in the run up to the death.

WHy have a race on a busy road, on a saturday morning?

At 7am on a Saturday morning it's [i]not[/i] a busy road. That's beside the point anyway. The driver in this case had already passed inches from another rider - on an empty dual carriageway - and the car following her could clearly see Major Rhys-Evans (no problems with visibility) and could only watch as Miss Hart drove straight through him without making any attempt to change course. A tragic episode of driving way below an acceptable standard.

Im not really sure what the sentence should be but imagine, instead of running the cyclist over the girl accidently shot someone, or she crashed her light aircraft into a house and killed some one.

In these cases no one would argue she should have her gun or aircraft license permentley removed.

In some cases I think this is similar, if it really was an accident why should she go to jail. I dont think its going to help the situation and as mentioned its going to ruin her life which may in turn ruin other peoples life.

What would seem more fair is take away her license permantly however this is seen as such a terrible punishment the judge would prefer to send her to prison which is just a bit strange.

Also people seem to suggest that going to prison gives people time to think and repent over their crime however I think it this case it would be more likely to harden her heart and make her think shes been unfairly treated.

Life bans for serious offences, serious prison sentences for drivers who drive whilst DQ'd. DQ's drivers have proven their lack of respect for the rest of the road using public by getting a ban in th efirst place, then proved they are not repentant in any way by continuing with this behaviour. DQ'd drivers are a menace to society and shoud eb treated like the vermin that they are.
Like miketually says, too

We need far harsher sentencing for crap driving that doesn't cause a death. Bans at 6 points, etc.

A jail term for killing someone will not be a deterrent for others because "it'll never happen to me". Having two of your mates not driving for 3 months because they drove like dicks will.

but heaven forbid we could ruin someones life by making them take the bus, or SHOCK HORROR, having to CYCLE!!!!! ( well, the roads are so dangerous you know....!)

Sad, but even as a cyclist why do you want to ride on the A1 why not do TTs on a controlled track like they do at Lotus in the summer

if you can't see people in broad daylight on a clear road, you're not fit to drive a car, should be a lifetime ban.

Presumably she didn't intentionally go out to kill someone, although forming an opinion based solely on the link provided is of course retarded and anyone doing so should not be allowed to have children let alone drive a vehicle on the road.

I'm not for a minute comparing my situation with the incident mentioned, but ten years ago, I was hit (whilst on my motorbike) by a woman that 'didnt see me', resulting in a badly broken (five places) pelvis, three broken ribs, and a heart attack at the scene of the accident, due to trauma. I was off work for more than a year, lost my job in the NHS and subsequently my pension, and ended up suffering with depression and post traumatic stress disorder for about five years. The driver admitted full responsibility to the police, but in spite of this, two days after the accident, they 'visited' me in hospital and more or less accused me of being at fault. The woman was initially charged with dangerous driving, but due to her claiming she felt 'shocked and guilty' about what had happened, it was felt that a ban, etc, would be 'of benefit to none of the parties involved', and she was ordered to attend a two day driver awareness course, whatever that was supposed to be.

I think the sentence is reasonable compared to other sentences that get handed down. I'm not a fan of "Police, Camera, Action" type programmes. But of some I've seen there are drivers who drive with NO care or attention to other road users, whether cyclists or not and who get nothing. Even when they are on multiple year driving bans or have never owned licenses in the first place. Compared to these kn*$s she has been treated VERY harshly. The problem IMHO is inconsistency in treatement. A lot of dangerous drivers never even get picked up now as the only driving offence seems to be speeding. I'm all for speed cameras BUT feel they stop the police force from "policing" other road offences.

By the sounds of what happen she was tired / not fully awake, and the guy happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time as was she. Its a horrific accident but one that highlights that fact that tiredness kills.

The thing is I bet every single person on this forum with a driving license at some point has driven whilst impaired in someway, tiredness is just as bad if not worse than intoxication (which many of you will have done without knowing also).

She made a gross error and she is paying for it, and will do for the rest of her life, and so she should. Locking her up wont solve anything and nor will banning her from driving forever.

my heart goes out to the families involved. I don't want to make any comment about whether justice has been served.. but my next comments will probably be considered quite un PC in the STW realm.

I don't like driving a car but I have to do so occasionally.. maybe 3 times per week on average. The fairly rural town I live in has two main routes out and both of these fast A-roads are plagued by cyclists. I understand a persons right to use a bicycle for transport but I cannot for the life of me see any sense in allowing an exteremely vulnerable slow moving vehicle to hinder the flow of traffic on roads where the average speed is around 60mph.. It's complete madness and dangerous for all involved and I personally feel is a very selfish move on the part of the tiny cycling minority..
Oh.. so here's a good idea... lets hold poorly signposted.. poorly advertised cycling events under these same conditions.. right on!

surely there are less selfish and dangerous alternatives?

interesting article [url= http://thecyclingsilk.blogspot.com/2009/11/cycling-against-car-culture.html ]here[/url] that someone linked in BR. It's written by a lawyer from a cyclists perspective about uneven sentencing. In this case the custodial seems to be roughly in line (2 years) but the driving ban of the same length seems silly (ofc she can't drive ... she's in JAIL). I think a ban and enhanced retest should be a minimum for any dangerous driving offence, no matter the consequences. My understanding is that dangerous driving (or indeed without due care) is a tough one to prove unless the car was logged doing some stupid speed.

The article makes the case that we as a society view car offences over-lightly in part because we all drive and so we feel like we're condeming ourselves (there but for the grace of God go I) and I must admit that until IU read it I felt the same.

In the end this teenager will have to live the rest of her life with what she has done, that's the real punishment. If I were her I'm not sure I could ever stand to drive a car again.

I think the fact she'd almost hit other cyclists shows this wasn't a moment of inattention, it was just how she was driving that day (perhaps she always drives like that, perhaps it was a one-off). Maybe (actually I don't) I understand the reasoning behind such a low prison sentence, but at least there should have been a massive ban if it's considered more appropriate.

I think the gentlemens rules of Time Trialing need to change with the times. The days of dressing in black and meeting at clandestine places are over and other road users need to know what's going on.

Based on my experiences I'd be hard pushed to ever do another TT as both deaths I witnessed (marlowe and Potters Bar) happened mid event so there would have been a constant steady stream of cyclists that would have attracted the attention of most motorists.
On the other hand I know for a fact that a lot of testers are so focused that they don't ever for one milisecond pay attention to their own safety.

A little flo green triangle or whatever they use these days isn't enough, and it's about time that the TT community stopped hiding behind their claims that TT isn't actually racing and started to do more to look after it's members.

[b]oldgit[/b]. I hear you on that. a riding mate of mine who's >60 tells tales about TTing way back when. It's sensitive though, changing the TT rules implies that it's the cyclists' fault that they get knocked off and I don't buy that

*but*

I don't think it's appropriate to be racing anything (bike, car rollerskates, whatever) on an open public highway. Alan (my old mate) says the reason that TT has flourished in the UK is because of the unwillingness of the local authorities to do what they do on the continent to facilitate road racing ... shut the damn roads. You will find rolling road closures on any given weekend in Belgium (for example) ofc, they're not on major roads like the A1 unless it's a very big event but by closing the roads provides cyclists with a safe venue to race.

there's a whole other conversation to be had about whether 20 hours tuition and a 1 hour test is enough to license a lifetime of driving, but I can't think of a single country that has come up with an organised response to this. The upshot being that most of us (and I include myself in this) don't take driving nearly as seriously as we should.

To be honest, I'm sure for her the worst possible sentence will be living with the guilt...

To be honest (and this does sound cynical). In a lot of these cases I imagine the defendant feels remorse at their situation/luck as they feel it was an accident. Not murder/pulling the trigger.

I read in the Metro this morning about a learner driver who drove into a tree whilst driving at 67mph on a night out. Her boyfriend died and she initially blamed the crash on him (they found her sandal wedged under the brake pedal). She was jailed. She should have been jailed for longer due to her evasion of guilt.

Much longer sentences for such negligent driving would slow everyone down and change attitudes.