I've got a Holdsworth Stelvio steel tourer that I bought about five/six years ago for commuting and occasional touring duties, but which I now use with 36c tyres for towpath/farm track/old railway line gravelly type stuff.
It's never been massively sprightly - it's an unfancy steel frame and forks, the wheels are actually MTB 29r ones - but on road it's a comfortable, trundly ride. Off road however it just feels pretty dead. I'm wondering how much of that is to do with the weight.
I weighed it yesterday and it comes in at 12.4kg. Looking at the quoted weights of new bikes with non fancy build specs (e.g Camino), they seem to come in at about a kilo lighter.
Is it that kilo that's killing the ride?
It's not only heavy, I'd say it's VERY heavy.
Mine are 7.6kg, 8.1kg and 8.3kg and 8.5kg on the UPPER, Litespeed, Tempest and Carbonda with racks and guards, respectively.
I'll weigh my steel gravel bike in a bit.
Are the wheels heavy though?
It's steel so you are looking at 1-2kg penalty over alloy or carbon respectively. I wouldn't worry about it too much as you make the most of the weight. Let's say the people that are the fastest in my ride group, aren't the fastest due to weight - they just ride more.
My steel road bikes are 9kg (30 years old high end), and the CX bike is alloy and comes in about 10kg - the reviews said it was heavy, although it's light enough for me. My two MTB's are much heavier.
Yes, 12.4kg is heavy for a gravel bike. Whether that matters or not is up to you, it does to me. The bike I ride gravel on is 6.3kg.
Mine are 7.6kg, 8.1kg and 8.3kg and 8.5kg on the UPPER, Litespeed, Tempest and Carbonda with racks and guards, respectively.
They do sound at the fancy end of things though.
Are the wheels heavy though?
I don't know the weights, but they're pretty basic so I'd imagine so
My steel gravel bike with carbon fork (size large) comes in at 10.3kg with pedals
Weighed with what I’ve used for suitcases etc and it is pretty spot on
It's not just the weight. I was using a 11.5kg Van Nicholas Amazon tourer as my gravel bike and recently bought a 9.3kg Cannondale Topstone. It helps that it's 2kg lighter but geometry and riding position help to make it feel much more alive/sprightly/whatever. It is noticeably faster in rolling terrain too, carrying speed through dips and well up any following rises.
XL Freeranger (carbon) running 50c 700 tyres, weighs 9kg with cages & pedals etc on my Park scales.
Is it that kilo that’s killing the ride?
No, it's the geometry. Sure it's heavy, but the handling is dictated by the geometry not the weight. With a 71.5 degree head angle, it's never going to feel like a race bike https://geometrygeeks.bike/bike/holdsworth-stelvio-2017/ . The heavy wheels and tyres will not help either, but stately is no bad thing with 20 kilos of luggage.
10.7kg
Ragley Trig with carbon fork, 700c wheels, 1x11 GRX 600 & heavy pedals
Felt sluggish on the heavier stock 650b wheels & tyres, feels great now though.
My Swift (my only bike) is about 13kg but it's essentially a flat bar gravel bike for me. I guess I'm over biked (and I have a damaged heart too) so getting it up hills (onto the Mendips) can be an slow process, but with the right gearing I can get it anywhere I want to go (eventually).
I ride alone, so I'm not trying to keep up with anyone and I'm well used to being overtaken by roadies and folk on e-bikes.
I did promise myself a 'proper', light gravel bike, following my heart attacks, but never got around to it. Perhaps it's because I don't know what I'm missing, but I'm perfectly happy on my tractor of a bike and I could spend a lot of money I don't have on a bike that would just get me around the some rides a few minutes faster.
I guess your bike is at the weighty end of the spectrum but not hugely so for a steel framed/forked bike (when I looked the Genesis Vagabond gravel bike was the same weight as my Swift).
If it's spoiling your rides or you can't keep up with your mates (I don't have any) perhaps look at something new or at lightening up what you have, but if you're happy riding it, just get on with it I would.
-- Edit --
Kona Rove - road.cc/content/review/241027-kona-rove-dl
I also did a quick search on another version of the Rove (in the £1600 range) and come up with 11.55kg. It's lighter but whether significantly enough to notice I couldn't say.
It is heavy.
The dead feeling off road will be a combo of the handling, rake, head angle and trail is what is doing that. It's designed to be stable on road, makes for, errrrr, interestingly dull off road.
It's also linked to the frame being basic steel, all i can find is 4130, no mention of butting at all. So being generous, it might have a couple of single butted tubes. That won't help.
most people can afford to lose a stone or 2 in bodyweight.
just get out and ride.
I's say that's pretty lardy. My XL Tempest is 10.3 kg. That's 45 tyres on Hunt 4 season 700c rims.
most people can afford to lose a stone or 2 in bodyweight.
You would hope that would be less so on a cycling forum though wouldn't you?
Losing a KG of weight from my body does not make my bike handle like a lighter bike...
My Kinesis Tripster alloy with carbon forks and 1*11 Force is 11.3kg.
12.4Kg is pretty much the same as my full suss Giant Anthem...! My gravel bike is around 8.5Kg. Both do have carbon wheels though. I'm sure you could put the Holdsworth on a bit of a diet, a light bike does feel nice to ride (although I don't think the actual difference in speed is that great)
You would hope that would be less so on a cycling forum though wouldn’t you?
Losing a KG of weight from my body does not make my bike handle like a lighter bike…
but losing 5kg in bodyweight does make cycling easier.
It's ridiculously heavy for a gravel bike. My steel gravel bike (a Sour Purple Haze), which I built with half an eye on weight, is 9.8kg with racks and guards. And even that I'm a bit disappointed with.
Looking at the dropouts, the Stelvio comes from the same factory as a Viking Cross Master which I've had a shot on. That, despite being Reynolds 725, is completely unbutted and seriously heavy, with a dead ride because of its heavy wheels and lardy, unrefined frame.
There's not much you'll be able to do about it with the bike you've got.
It is relatively heavy for sure, It weighs roughly the same as the steel-framed rat bike I built up from random bits, which is/was horribly sluggish on climbs and slow to accelerate even with fast-ish, large-ish road tyres fitted. Steel forks tend to be quite weighty too and unforgiving.
Maybe try some lighter, faster tyres if you want a bit more zip, but don't expect too much would be my take. I swapped from a nice riding, but weighty Soma steel-framed cross bike to a significantly lighter On One carbon thing a few years back, actually a lot of years back, and the On One felt like a rocket ship in comparison. Same wheels and tyres etc, but a much lighter frame/fork.
Interesting stuff, cheers all
I’m sure you could put the Holdsworth on a bit of a diet
Yeah, maybe, but I'm not sure if would be worth the cost. The main areas I could obviously improve are the wheels and the forks. Wheels wise, it's all QR and non boost, so I could keep and eye on eBay for someone getting rid of some old, now basically obsolete, but 'nice' 29er wheels. I could also stick some carbon forks on but, frankly, they'd look gash (despite its shortcomings, it's a lovely looking bike)
Maybe try some lighter, faster tyres if you want a bit more zip
Hah, the tyres are the best bit on it, Vittoria Hypers, they're brilliant.
Do you want a more lively bike?
If so, I'd say to look out for a nice used Boardman Adv 8.9.
Great bike. Light, fast and quite comfy with good handling. Should get a decent one for £500 or less.
You would hope that would be less so on a cycling forum though wouldn’t you?
Wait, what? This is a cycling forum? I'm in the wrong place...
Yikes, I'm getting a bit paranoid about my 10kg 'bloater' of a gravel bike in the garage. I'm still suspicious that the frame builder either stiffed me on the tubing (was supposed to be 853) or gave me plain gauge throughout since I didn't specifically say I wanted butted tubes (schoolboy error perhaps but you'd kind of hope that it was a given...).
853 frame with carbon forks and finishing kit (except boggo standard aluminium stem because I wanted to experiment with different sizes) and 2x GRX with an 11-34 Ultegra cassette. Otherwise all good kit and since it's rim brakes that should represent a good 200-300g saving off equivalent disc build. Would be very interested to see how people are getting down to 7.6kg gravel builds (Kerley doesn't count since it's probably a brakeless fixie with 25mm tyres! 😂).
But for the OP, I notice that my 29er hardtail with Mezcal tyres doesn't feel significantly slower and certainly no less lively to ride, even though it's probably closer to 12kg, so I wouldn't focus on the weight of the bike, I'd be more inclined to agree with the geometry comments or maybe even the tube types, I tried using a steel tourer frame for a gravel build years ago and remember not really liking it, felt un-necessarily harsh over bumps etc.
Well, I ride 'gravel' on a rigid MTB which weighs about 12kg ish. Whilst it has steep angles and a racy feel compared to modern bikes, it is an MTB so it has MTB gears, flat bars and a dropper. It doesn't feel slow and off-road it's great. But then it's doing rough rocky trails not smooth gravel. It also has 2.3" MTB tyres.
36c sounds small for tyres but I don't know what your terrain is like. Small tyres and a heavy bike would probably be worse than big tyres and heavy bike. I can go a lot faster on rough stuff because I have big tyres, which then makes it feel lively.
Yikes, I’m getting a bit paranoid about my 10kg ‘bloater’ of a gravel bike in the garage. I’m still suspicious that the frame builder either stiffed me on the tubing (was supposed to be 853)
Nah, don't worry. See my bike weight above. Double-butted steel frame, which will barely be heavier than one with a bit of 853 in. Mid-rangey components. Maybe I could knock a kilo off with carbon wheels, bar and seatpost - but I have no need or desire to.
Are you happy with how yours rides?
Not entirely accurate as I measured it on my bathroom scales which are accurate to....who knows?! 2 doughnuts and a large glass of ale?
Anyway - assuming it might be inaccurate, but consistent - I stood on the scales, got my weight, then weighed myself again holding the bike - my Sonder Camino appears to weigh 9.7kg with saddle bag (multi-tool, tube, patch kit, tyre levers), 2 bottle cages & a Wahoo mount.
That's a GRX1x build with the Alpha wheel upgrade, tubeless tyres (45s, I think) and a different saddle.
That is pretty heavy, but I doubt the weight is the main thing making it feel dead, especially if you don't mind it on the road. From the pics I just googled, it looks like you have very long chainstays for example, which prob doesn't help
My gravel bike is likely the heaviest on here, as it's a steel frame and fork and I just added a Rohloff (so +800-900g, but it didn't feel any slower after to me). I haven't weighed it, but I'm guessing about 11.5kg, which is the same as a stock Shand Stoater. But I do have quite snappy geometry so I find the ride feel to be nice, and it only feels sluggish when I go to larger non-slick gravel tyres.
https://road.cc/content/review/133605-shand-stoater-road-bike
36c sounds small for tyres but I don’t know what your terrain is like.
It's as big as I can get in. Size wise they're not too bad to be honest, but a bit more would be nice at times
medium nukeproof digger, with suspension fork and dropper.. 11.2kg so yer it's heavy, does it make any real world difference?
Is it that kilo that’s killing the ride?
No, it won't be that.
Heavy wheels (or heavy-duty tyres mainly), a stable geometry and a certain fit etc will combine to feel less lively overall but +/- 1kg won't make the difference. Take a Cervelo Aspero and add a full 1l bottle - it'll still feel like a 'fast' gravel bike.
I’m still suspicious that the frame builder either stiffed me on the tubing (was supposed to be 853) or gave me plain gauge throughout since I didn’t specifically say I wanted butted tubes (schoolboy error perhaps but you’d kind of hope that it was a given…).
Doubt it.. not if it's a Rourke with an 853 decal on. Do Reynolds even make PG steel main frame tubes? Maybe the odd one. Ping the tubes with a fingernail along the length and you'll be able to hear where the butt transitions are.
Looking at the dropouts, the Stelvio comes from the same factory as a Viking Cross Master which I’ve had a shot on. That, despite being Reynolds 725, is completely unbutted and seriously heavy, with a dead ride because of its heavy wheels and lardy, unrefined frame.
That's just a stock dropout from a frame fitting supplier in Taiwan, there's half a dozen Taiwanese frame factories I can think of using parts from them, and a load more factories in China or SE Asia.
725 in Asia is made to Reynolds spec (ie drawn to the same dims as the UK Reynolds tube list) and as far as I'm aware there isn't a plain gauge 725 frame tube available, aside from head tube and stays. I doubt they'd sign off a 725 PG main frame tubeset for OE use, plus there's just no point. You'd be spending a fair bit on heat-treated tubes and the Reynolds badge and then saving less than that by speccing PG over DB.
It is heavy. My tourer is 15kg. It doesn't matter though
Doubt it.. not if it’s a Rourke with an 853 decal on. Do Reynolds even make PG steel main frame tubes?
No sticker funnily enough which I put down as an oversight.
I had to get the seat tube reamed as I thought it was undersized (turned out to be an over-sized Ti seatpost!). Ended up going to Ben @ Kinetics who commented whilst he was doing it that he thought the seat-tube was plain gauge.
I don't let it bother me, I didn't buy steel for the weight savings and it rides great, was just interested.
My Genesis CDF 725 is 12kg with cages and nowt else, it’s a large and has 42mm tyres.
It’s porky, but rides lovely, I’m massively porky so it’s built to withstand my lack of finesse and talent.
Loaded up with seat pack, small bar bag, pump, lights and Garmin it’s knocking on the door of 14.5kg. It’s not the bike that’s the problem, it’s the useless lump sat on it.
My Sequoia is 12kg stock, and whilst it now has lighter wheels and gears, it has frame bags permanently fitted, so they’ll negate any gains.
Feels fine.
Sounds like a good starter gravel bike for trundles off the tarmac.
I used my Tourer for years in similarfashion, and did the first Dirty Riever 200 on it, and then decided to get a bike with disc brakes!
Speed maybe not an issue for you, sounds like if you have tow paths the area maybe reasonably flat where you live as well.
My Tourer had racks and mudguards on it so stripped them off to shed a bit of kg and started using bike backing bags.
But yes your bike is not particularly light.
I weigh 93kg. I'd like to weigh 85kg.
How much would it cost to lose 5kg from your bike? ££££?
I'd just ride it and enjoy riding. Making comparisons to a number doesn't tell you how much fun something is.
You could spend the ££££ on a smashing holiday to ride said bike somewhere exciting for a week. That would also take some kg off the rider/ bike system 😉
A light bike is a light bike regardless of how much the rider weighs. Yes, losing body weight can help, especially on the climbs, but it still doesn't make your bike handle like a lighter one.
It sounds like it is a bit on the heavy side but some of the quoted weights on here sound far too low to make a comfortable off road bike
Bike weight is relative to rider weight.
A lighter rider needs a lighter bike than a heavy rider for the same power to weight ratio.
My gravel bike weighs 13kg ( it's based on a 26" HT still has a suspension fork, a set of Shimano 700c RX830 CX wheels) , its not the weight that is the problem with your, mine feels plenty lively. The only time it doesn't is on the road with slicks when the long wheelbase and slack angles make it too stable at speed.
My guess is that it's a combination of geometry and CEN certification which made all mass market steel frames feel dead compared to what they used to be like.
My guess is that it’s a combination of geometry and CEN certification which made all mass market steel frames feel dead compared to what they used to be like.
My mass-market steel gravel bike has something like the classic steel feel I remember from BITD.
Certainly more so than the last steel hardtail I had.
I expect @jameso can tell us whether gravel frames undergo different CEN tests to MTB frames.
My guess is that it’s a combination of geometry and CEN certification which made all mass market steel frames feel dead compared to what they used to be like.
That's it - not just the tests, with MTBs it's long forks that have really made the difference, and short stem, long reach gometries that could feel weird with a whippy tubeset. Gravel bikes can pass current standards w/o being overbuilt and the older trad tube spec or basic OS tube lugged road bike feel isn't so popular now anyway. All the 'stiffer is better' message out there.. tbh as much as I love the ride of an older steel road bike I wouldn't want a frame with that level of flex if I was loading the bike up and it's hard to justify a gravel bike that isn't also a good tourer/bikepacker?
whether gravel frames undergo different CEN tests to MTB frames
The tests are different, it's up to the brand to say which one is most suitable for their gravel bike (it's a bit blurred - a road bike that goes off road, how off road, etc).
Bike weight is relative to rider weight.
A lighter rider needs a lighter bike than a heavy rider for the same power to weight ratio.
I'd agree if you'd have said the stiffness of a bike should be relative to rider power, but within reason (stability) there's no drawbacks to a lighter bike for any rider?
My 3T Exploro's(Size L)coming in at 10.9 KG with 42c(650b) metal wheels and gallons of sealant and a small frame bag (2 pumps and 2 multitools,puncture kit in a tool roll) and er mega heavy flat pedals lights(rears a radar camera so more weight than a boggo light) and bike computer. (measured on a Park tool).
I reckon I could easily get the weight down with my alternative 700 wheelset but I like crashing around.
(Any gainzs would be easily lost by the shed load of water I'd probably want to carry on a hot day.)
I'd also say weight isn't a big deal if the bike still handles and rides nice and does what it needs to do.
I weigh 93kg. I’d like to weigh 85kg.
How much would it cost to lose 5kg from your bike? ££££?
I’d just ride it and enjoy riding. Making comparisons to a number doesn’t tell you how much fun something is.
And I weigh 66kg, I would like to weigh 66kg (it is after all fully in my control)
How much would it cost to lose 5kg from my 6.3kg bike, rather a lot I expect.
I will tell you if riding a lighter bike is more fun for me - Yes it is.
It's heavy for a gravel bike.
It's not heavy for the Touring bike it is.
It's. Matter of perspective. Stop looking at it like it's something it's not.
Angles and tubing are what's killing it.
there’s no drawbacks to a lighter bike for any rider?
lol.......... have you heard the sound a Ti bike makes when it snaps............. ;o)
yeah as everyone has said, your bike is heavy. If you’re looking at buying a new gravel bike that is lighter, just be very careful about your expectations.
My Planet X Tempest, size small with EKAR was just over 10kgs, advert says it should be 9.6kgs.
I have swapped out a few things, wheels are now 1395 gram carbon wheels (still 700cc) and running 42mm panaracer gravel king set up tubeless, seat post, bars and stem are carbon Zipp SL. Saddle is also a lightweight brooks saddle that was something like 75 grams lighter than the stock saddle.Seat post has also been cut down to size as has the steerer.
It is now a smidgen under 9kgs at ready to ride weight (so it does include pedals, two bottle cages and wahoo mount). Hills are still hard and I’m still slow. But I like it! I wouldn’t say the bike is particularly more lively than it was, I just like to have nice finishing kit.
Out of curiosity I just weighed my (Al framed) gravel bike, it was 11kg but that was with a top tube bag (with a waterproof packed in), gas can bag (with tools/spares in) and the mud I couldn't be arsed to clean off last week... so I guess that's 12kg with a full water bottle, but if I cleaned it and removed the bags and junk I'm it could be sub 10kg(?)
I checked My (Al) CX bike came in at 8.75kg and my (carbon) road bike was 8kg (again with spare tube/tools/pump).
12kg does sounds kinda heavy, but then weighing bikes is pretty ridiculous, you're still going to hoist a meat sack on top of it and lug about water, snacks, tools and gadgets so what does the odd kilo or two really matter?
<p style="text-align: left;">I have a stelvio too, I put some cheap 650b MTB wheels (bargain as no one wants qr front wheels anymore so cheap 2nd hand) and wtb 650 x 47c tyres (tubeless) and it handles a little better now, quicker to change direction but still stable. Back end is still a solid lump but the extra volume and lower pressures help a bit.</p>
Did a 4 day ride Dunkerque to Amsterdam on it on road and some gravelly type cycle tracks and it was superb.
Just weighed my gravel bike and it is also 12.4kg (steel, single-speed, 29er MTB ali wheels, fully loaded with all my everyday bits) It definitely doesn't feel sluggish though, quite the opposite. It must be a geometry thing
Geometry and flexy tubing will be hurting more than the weight, which isn't light, but isn't super porky for that sort of thing.
'I tried using a steel tourer frame for a gravel build years ago and remember not really liking it, felt un-necessarily harsh over bumps etc.' From an earlier post .. it surprised me a little, that it would be feeling harsh? Was it a property of the frame per se, or you couldn't get large tyres on it or?
I just weighed the Fargo, 13.5kg with the saddlebag off, 16.5 with it on, ready to ride with lock, jacket, tools, emergency food etc etc, but. I guess without the big steel bag support and the metal frame pump and bottle cages that would lose most of a kilo, but I know it's a brute and always will be.
I also weighed the roadie which I genuinely thought was lighter, but that came in at 9.6kg, ready to ride with pedals, cages, rear LED and Garmin mount. It's an older Ribble Sportive with Sora.
I've been debating with myself whether to get a Free Ranger (or similar) to replace the roadie which will be permanently on the trainer now for non-loaded days out, not for the speed aspect, but for going further and seeing more for the same effort, on a group ride last week it was obvious the gravel and CX bikes were cruising where I was having to give it beans.
not for the speed aspect, but for going further and seeing more for the same effort,
Pretty much my exact thoughts about getting a gravel bike to replace the Swift, I just can't shake the feeling that I could spend a lot of money and not see much benefit.
And here to make you feel good; my genesis vagabond with a 725 sticker on is 18kg. I honestly have no idea where the weight is. Lots of ti parts, wheels are 1kg apiece being dynamo hub and 32 spoke but still. It’s a barge. My fancy pants Rourke 853/921 with whisky carbon fork comes in at 14kg with bag, racks etc. and it’s a completely different type of ride. Change tyres and possibly wheels first then see how you feel.
I have no idea how heavy my Merlin g2p is - but it sports rack and mudguards.
What it does have is night tight and lightish wheels with reasonable weight touring slicks on - and you can feel them accelerate better than the other 700c wheeled bikes in the house which have heavier rims and tyres.
I do think my fitness, weight and (lack of) thought over aero is a much bigger issue than weight of a bike.
And again - 'gravel' means all sorts to all sorts of folk. Speed is not my goal, enjoyment is.
In my experience wheels make the biggest difference to whether a bike feels dead of road or not.
In my experience wheels make the biggest difference to whether a bike feels dead of road or not.
Or more like rim weight and tyre size/weight. Ride a bike with say a 50c tyre that weight 500g and then change tyre to a 200g 25c and it will feel like a different bike. More responsive, feels better to turn, just generally feels faster and more agile.
It is of course not actually that much faster but then I ride for enjoyment and how the bike feels is as important as how fast I am going. I just enjoy riding lighter more sprightly feeling bikes.
I think it’s quite porky - but then you say it’s a tourer frame built up for gravel - so it’s a tourer weight.
My Dolan GXC (also a Carbonda / On zone freeranger effectively) comes in around 8.5k I’d think. Has Hunt’s cheapest alloy wheels / Ultegra di2 / 30c Conti gp5000s / Hope RX4 calipers.
If you’re bothered you could pick up a cheap secondhand On One Freeranger to try. Not fancy fancy, but a load of them came with Sram Force 1 which is decent and you’d get a pretty lightweight bike that’ll take either 650b or 700c tyres in a big size (for gravel).
Both our steel gravel bikes (Niner and Fairlight) come in at about 10.3 kg.
Okay, so, thread update.
I went out on it yesterday and, I have to say, I enjoyed it, to be honest I think I might have built the weight thing up in my head to be more than it is.
Saying that, I've just weighed the wheels, tyres/tubes/cassette off, rotors still attached. They've come in at a combined weight of 2.5kg, so, pretty porksome.
However, having read smokey_joe's comment above, I've spotted a decent pair of 650b wheels on eBay that will be at least 600g lighter, and the fella is willing to do a deal, so I'm about to snap them up.
Anyone want to recommend (or sell) a pair of zippy 650 45c gravel tyres?
@IHN I’ve a pair of Halo CXG if any use to you? £35/pair posted. Used for one ride.
https://flic.kr/p/2oAvxTt