I use Easton Monkeylite mid rise carbon bars, and a carbon upper link on my frame. Am I the only one who has an irrational fear of a carbon framed mountain bike? I fear frame failure due to little impacts from being dropped when taking a tumble in rock gardens and other shows of extreme skills. I view a dent in an aluminium/steel/Ti frame as a shame and a war wound to be proud of, but on a carbon frame, it seems like a one way trip to the bin. Worse, if youn't see the damage, what does that mean? Will all LBS's have access to MRI scanners? Yet I have every confidence in my bars...go figure!
Wouldn't bother me in the slightest. I've broken all sorts of frames from Ali to steel. Stuff breaks.
no its not just you!!!!!its an affliction which affects many...
www.bustedcarbon.com
I've got it 🙁
Nice to know I'm not alone 🙂
Makes sense to me. Bars are a one piece item. All the carbon components that have failed on me have gone where thay are bonded (usually to aluminium), and frames tend to be made of bits bonded together which is a bit scary having seen what I have.
As for damage to a carbon component... if in doubt throw it out.
those busted carbon shots give me no comfort! I had to turn away 😯
those busted carbon shots give me no comfort!
they weren't supposed to! i've broken every part on a bike in my life (except a stem - don't think i've ever broken a stem...) and all of them have been metal. despite that, i don't really trust carbon parts/frames either.
Thanks for that carbon site. I have carbon forks on my road bike with a carbon steerer!! it all scares me to be honest and that site has pushed me over the edge, I'm getting some different forks.
to put it into perspective theres always enough info out there if you look for it...i have a bigger fear of 12V MICROWAVE OVENS
I'm terrified of carbon bars after a horror story I was once told about some bars snapping at the brake levers on both sides at once resulting, not surprisingly in a huge huge prang. I'll stick to my metals for the time being...
🙄 With the rubbish that gets spouted you'd think that metal compenents write you a letter informing you of their intent to fail a week or so in advance and then when they do break, they make sure that they do so in a nice safe manner with no sharp edges and strategically place cushions on the trail so you don't hurt yourself.
Do some proper research. Fear of carbon is mainly because it's new and some early stuff was crap. Just like early aluminium frames were rubbish and broke.
Trouble is, carbon shatters on impact, producing shards. If you get the shards embedded in you they are barbed, so they migrate through your bloodstream towards your heart. That is why people often have to limbs amputated after crashes on carbon bikes.
Me - I have it. Its the catastrophic failure mode that upsets me. Not just frames but any carbon component. Has no place on a MTB in my book.
Its not that its weak 'cos its not - its that when you overstress it it loses all strength immediately rather than bending or taking some time to completely fail
Almost every metal component that breaks will have been failing for some time - you can usually see where the crack has been propagating from
(Mr MC posting) see other current threads on blur LT and carbon bashing/championing. Many of the breaks on bustedcarbon are from crashes that would have totalled an ally or steel frame.
TBH IMHO a carbon fibre bar/seatpost is a triumph of engineering over material choice. CF is strong in tension, so those bars are designed and built so that all the force of you nose landing that drop-off is taken in the material along the top of your bar.
I'd ride a CF frame before a CF bar, even though Ive no doubt Easton etc have got their products sorted (the fact they havent been sued into oblivion suggests their kit is durable).
Shame I can't over my natural distrust as I love the Ibis Mojo that this site keeps flashing in my face!
If thats not a joke im never using a carbon component! 😀
wtf?! That's it - everything carbon has to go! I quite like having all my limbs!
That isgoig to keep me up tonight!
Here I was hoping to get some waffle on how carbon is so much better etc, and now I'm wondering why the bike manufacturuers are all moving over....
Santacruz, Ibis, Trek, Lapierre, etc...Will we all end up on carbon bikes and laugh at the days we all thought the world was flat?
[url= http://www.rideyourbike.com/carbonfiber.html ]carbon fibre warning[/url]
LOL @BigDummy - brilliant 🙂 was that on the mash or did you make it up?
it loses all strength immediately rather than bending or taking some time to completely fail
My alumninium cranks failed pretty suddenly. as did a set of ti bars as has almost every metal component that I've seen that's failed while riding come to think of it.
Clubber - I bet you that in all those cases there had been a crack propagating for some time that you didn't spot. I have never seen a metal component that has not.
I read that on here Clubber, I'm pretty sure it's true. I'm sorry if it turns out to be rubbish, but I feel it is important to warn people of these risks. 🙂
TJ - Probably but as we've discussed several times before that's what happens in the real world and while you obviously never fail to spot microscopic cracks even when they're covered in mud/grime being omnipotent and all, in the real world other less skilled people generally don't.
this is the rumour thread to end them all i fear!!!
Sh!t happens, get over it and ride what you like 😉
Being killed by a <TJ> catastrophic failure </TJ> of a carbon component should be well down the list of potential pant soiling.........
Does that mean all carbon parts come from Mordor? Yet another reason to buy aluminium. Single most abundant metal on our planet, so why not support a good cause!
How would a carbon frame affect your carbon footprint?
BD you're a bad man...
No need to be offensive clubber - just 'cos you are a clumsy oaf with the mechanical sympathy of a tree stump 😉
(Mr MC posting) hmmm Trek seem to be weighing in on the side of TJ
Having played arround with CF and alluminium components in the lab whilst bored, i know which ones i'd fit to my bike if it had the money!
As for CF bars snapping, are you telling me youve never seen a snapped aluminum bar, complete with these nicely rounded edges that people keep telling me about?
As for CF failing suddelny, i smell boy cow excrament, CF usualy delaminates, which makes it creak horribly and go floppy before snapping.
Ask Ice hockey players when their sticks feel best, usualy its just before they fail (Pro players would actualy be better off with bendier sticks, but the matcho culture means they usualy go for the stiffest).
BD stop trolling, or should i go down to A&E? Ive had mroe CF splinters in my hands than you've had hot dinners!
Trek Quote:
While riding your bike, carefully listen for any
uncommon sounds. Creaking, cracking or
popping noises could all be indications of a
problem.
But that could be coming from anywhere on a muddy -UK summer-ride!!!
I've had a ti seatpost and a alu fork steerer snap, both without warning, the steerer had signs of fatigue when looked after snapping but how often are you supposed to inspect something like that? The seatpost was almost brand new, snapped on a relatively tame descent and when I weighed about 9 stone. I'd generally trust design over material - big companies with solid reputations and slow evolution of products/technologies vs new fly by night type stuff. Hence I'm happy enough with easton bars and seatposts, would be less so about unbranded/unusual stuff. I think most of the stuff in companies warranties/warnings is so they don't get sued, some of them say that after an impact, you might not be able to see damage but take it to the LBS for inspection. What the hell can they do that you can't mine doesn't have NMRI/XRAY/CT scanning equipment (I do however but havent used it with bike stuff yet!).
Nmri ...most people dont mention the N...its that word wot scares folks into groing an extra heed
BTW - I am fully prepared to accept the quote in the Op - [i]irrational fear[/i]
LOL @ BD.
Does this mean that non-barbed things, after entering your body, will move in a random direction rather than with the blood flow ❓
Carbon fibre may well fail catastrophically, but if you applied the same force to metal component it would fail just as catastrophically or as near as makes no difference.
Out of curiosity do those who have a fear of carbon fibre also check the carbon content of any steel components that they have? After all we all know what a difference that makes, don't we?
Are you guys scared by going in planes?
Some of the make up is composite as it has been proven to be stronger for certain applications.
Composite technology is the future.
Look at the new Zonda Carbon Titaniam mixture.
My new hockey stick is all carbon fibre and I hit a hockey ball 120mph and have the nuts hacked out of it every week and it is still crack free.
Get out and ride!
(Pro players would actualy be better off with bendier sticks, but the matcho culture means they usualy go for the stiffest).
The survey says "er errrr".
Stronger players of all positions often use stiffer sticks as their strength overcomes the stiffness and delivers a higher amount of potential energy from the stick for shots/passes. Defensive players also prefer stiffer stick as it allows a better slap shot and aids stick checking.
Weaker players/amateurs are generally the only players who like using more flexible sticks as they flatter those of lower ability/strength.
I use a wooden stick myself because I prefer the feel and also as it was handed down to me by my father so its a kind of tradition thing.
On the cycling side, I've used carbon bars on my downhill bike, carbon seat post, bars and Lefty ELO fork on my XC bike and my singlespeed has Pace RC40 forks fitted. Fear of change/new things presents itself in many ways and the rash of 'carbon is dangerous' type posts/blogs/websites is not something to be surprised about.
Al, I am no scientist, but I understand that carbon fibre can migrate towards your heart against the flow of blood, like one of those amazonian fish that swim up your jap's eye when you piss in the water. I suppose that means you die much, much quicker, and your kidneys don't have a chance to get rid of the shards. But I don't know.
Same in field hockey. I'm a forward and have to have a stick as stiff as I can get it, hence the £200+ price tags (not for me as I am sponsored 😆 )
Carbon is pretty good. I trust it as much as any metal, and like the idea that if there's a break it can be repaired for £40 or so- unlike an alu frame which is to an extent unrepairable.
I've never cracked anything in my life, though.
Blimey has any one actually read these posts befroe commenting on busted carbon
"I walked away from being T-boned by a car. Pity i don't have the pic of the left pedal, it got sheared in two"
"Mou sent me these photos of the broken fork on his Tank Matrix. I'm not sure exactly what happened, but it involved a Toyota"
FFS any light frame will be mashed up if hit by a car Carbon is not as Sh**E as it made out, its used on stuff from jet fightes to F1 cars. Also a lot of these are light or cheap road bikes, I dont have an issue with carbon worked on carbon Yachts seen them take huge impacts. By the same reasoning you build really light ie only strenghten in areas where known loading will happen ie BB head tunbe and it gets a Toyota in the down tube then it will go.
Plus your scaring me just got a mojo!!!! 😯 8)
my new favorite!!!
[The rider of this trek was passing a truck that was turning left, and another car turned left in front of the truck, and hit the rider]
carbon swimming to you heart it complete and utter crap.
And thats all i have to add to this
it must be true if it were ont tinternet..
I've built up a CF 6" AM bike and have no worries at all about it's strength
That is why people often have to limbs amputated after crashes on carbon bikes.
What the **** are you on about? Find me a pro rider (and they've basically all ridden carbon for a number of years) who's had a limb amputated as a direct result of a carbon-related incident.
Those fish that swim up your piss is total rubbish too, urban myth. There are some tools around!
I think BigDummy knows quite a bit about fishing. 😉
Carbon vs ally vs hammer:
Ally comes off looking pretty bad here.
Pro riders have access to better medical facilities and can often get the specialist help they need quickly enough that amputation is not necessary. It's the amateur riders that you need to be worrying about. But the bike manufacturers make [i]huge[/i] payouts to people who lose limbs, or their widows, to buy their silence because the market in carbon fibre bike components is so huge. The Trek Corporation apparently spent nearly 6.3% of its budget on hushing this scandal up in 2003.
Like I say, this may not be true, but it was on the internet. 🙂
[i]Those fish that swim up your piss is total rubbish too, urban myth. There are some tools around![/i]
Maybe you're right, but would you really stick your dick in a jam jar with one of these in and have a piss?
[url]
sootyandjim and dimmadan,
The stiffer stick may feel better/faster, but the evidence shows you can obtain higher puck speeds with the lower modulous sticks. Unless you have papers showing otherwise I give you:
The influence of shaft stiffness on potential energy and puck speed during wrist and slap shots in ice hockey
Journal Sports Engineering
Publisher Springer London
ISSN 1369-7072 (Print) 1460-2687 (Online)
Issue Volume 9, Number 4 / December, 2006
DOI 10.1007/BF02866057
Pages 191-200
Subject Collection Engineering
SpringerLink Date Wednesday, March 26, 2008
J. T. Worobets1 Contact Information, J. C. Fairbairn1 and D. J. Stefanyshyn1
(1) Human Performance Laboratory, The University of Calgary, 2500 University Drive NW, T2N 1N4 Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Abstract:
The purpose of this study was to explore the relationship between hockey stick shaft stiffness and puck speed with mechanical energy considerations during stationary wrist and slap shots. Thirty left-handed pro-model composite hockey sticks, submitted by eleven hockey stick manufacturers, were subjected to a mechanical cantilever bend test to determine the shaft stiffness of each stick. Eight sticks representing the entire spectrum of stiffnesses were then used by five elite male hockey players to perform stationary wrist and slap shots in a laboratory setting. Eight infra-red high-speed digital video cameras were used to capture shaft deformation and puck speed. A second mechanical test then replicated the loading patterns applied to each stick during shooting. Force-deformation data from this test were used to determine the shaft stiffness and potential energy storage and return associated with each stick during shooting. The results of this study suggest that shaft stiffness has an influence on puck speed in wrist but not slap shots. During a wrist shot, a given player should realise higher puck speeds with a stick in which they store increased elastic potential energy in the shaft. In general, flexible sticks were found to store the most energy. However, how the athlete loads the stick has as much influence on puck speed as stick construction. Energy considerations were unable to explain changes in puck speed for the slap shot. For this type of shot it is the athlete and not the equipment influencing puck speed, but the governing mechanisms have yet to be elucidated.
That paper is for ice hockey by the way, no idea how it relates to field hockey but suspect the principle is the same. And if you play with a stick handed own from your dad I suspect your at a different level to the guys we were talking to, we were looking at sticks per game not generations per stick!
What about an irrational love of carbon. And titanium. To be frank, it's almost a fetish.
are you sure the 6.3% was just spent on hushing up carbon s migratory patterns or the fact that in america if another human being farts near you its easier to settle out of court than in.
like for example the average uneducated joe that puts his forks in backwards then goes for a claim...JRA has a completely different meaning over there
Trouble is, carbon shatters on impact, producing shards. If you get the shards embedded in you they are barbed, so they migrate through your bloodstream towards your heart. That is why people often have to limbs amputated after crashes on carbon bikes.
This isnt the first time BigDummy has shown himself to be really funny...tsk tsk
thisisnotaspoon i was refering to field hockey where a plastic vball is struck rather than a puck.
TandemJeremy - MemberMe - I have it. Its the catastrophic failure mode that upsets me. Not just frames but any carbon component. Has no place on a MTB in my book.
*tries to imagine a place that was run according to TJ's book!*
*Shudders*
Blimey has any one actually read these posts befroe commenting on busted carbon"I walked away from being T-boned by a car. Pity i don't have the pic of the left pedal, it got sheared in two"
"Mou sent me these photos of the broken fork on his Tank Matrix. I'm not sure exactly what happened, but it involved a Toyota"
Yep, seems the majority of failures on there are of lightweight road bikes that have either hit a car, or been involved in some other sort of accident.
I bet a blog site called "busted steel/aluminium would get a bit dull with the sheer amount of broken parts that would fill page after page...
But the bike manufacturers make huge payouts to people who lose limbs, or their widows, to buy their silence because the market in carbon fibre bike components is so huge.
If the risk is so huge why are they making prosthetic limbs from carbon fiber? those people have already lost part of a limb so why are they risking the rest of it and (if we believe you) their life to have a slightly lighter or higher performance prosthetic arm/leg. They are used by disabled athletes who must surely damage them (as we are taliking about a piece of performance sports equipment) so you'd think they would be banned from this area of competition?
That'd be ironic wouldn't it. You've had your legs lopped off because your frame snapped or sommat, then they offer you some carbon legs instead.
Carbon seems to work alright for Oscar Pistorious!
Trek... 6.3%... really? No, I didn't think so!
i think the original post was a scaredy post over on some other forum (mtbr springs to mind)i remember reading it but im sure it was the fact that the ER folks had not removed all the foreign objects from the acccident site an interesting point though is that it could have been any foreign object and just because it happened to be carbon fibre and a bike accident it has become legend
forgot to ask if anyone knows what heart valves are made from
The body is extremely good at expelling foreign matter anyway! When I munched my knee last year there were still bits of gravel 'surfacing' under the scar tissue months later, kept having to dig them out.
A friend of mine fell on a pool cue, which went through his t-shirt and into his armpit. About 18 months later he got a black 'spot' on top of his shoulder, he squeezed it and pulled out the piece of t-shirt that'd be pushed in the bottom. Disgusting, but quite cool!
The whole cf/amputation thing is hushed up in the fishing world too.
Also note that F1 drivers' suits are kevlar to stop any CF piercing the body.
NASA engineers have spent years working on "non barbed" CF in order to get over this issue. No successes so far, and a few of their guys are now amputees after a breakage in the lab and someone accidentally switching the air con into reverse.
thisisnotaspoon - Whilst I've no doubt the science may prove a flexier stick is 'better' the science can't take into account the feel nor do bench tests take into account the real world use of stiffer sticks and whilst my level of experience may be dwarfed by that of the pros (oh and thanks for the particularly condescending way you put it) my limited experience still speaks volumes of the ice hockey scene at large.
Many pros stay with what they were brought up with because it feels right and as I said, thats something that can't be measured and feeling 'right' when you're playing is often far more important than the results of a bench test in a lab. The measurement of your sticks stiffness is the last thing on your mind when you are barreling along the boards looking for someone to lay the puck off.
Those fish that swim up your piss is total rubbish too, urban myth. There are some tools around!
Hmmm...
[url= http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.archive.org%2Fweb%2F20040616043555%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.internext.com.br%2Furologia%2FCasosclinicos.htm&langpair=pt%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8 ]Do not click if squeamish[/url]
Has anyone tested various sticks in field hockey? I'd be very supprised if the stiffer sticks were the faster ones.
anecdotal evidence abnd feel are uselless in this case, the pro's in the study (and the ones we spoke to) were all convinced that theyr super stiff sticks were the fastest.
cynic-al the problem with the NASA non-barbed carbon fibre, is that it doesn't bond well with the glue, and so tends to fall off the space shuttle. Certainly not enough structural integrity to make a frame out of yet. 🙄
I work in a hospital and I've heard about the CF barbs, not sure if I can dig out stats but I'll have a look.
Mostly from fishing poles in this country.
My friend is an A&E consultant. I think that there's an upcoming conference on the management of Carbon Fibre trauma that he's going to. 😉
The only issues I've heard of regarding CF are to do with inhaling it when cutting it or dealing with burned CF after an aircraft crash.
With regards to bikes, my main concern is the seeming lack of any clear information from most frame manufacturers regarding the composition of the CF and the manufacturing processes used. All CF is not equal! It is also a relatively new technology to bikes so the best way to go about making a component that will last will not be well known to all manufacturers.
I've run CF bars on one of my bikes for three years and I really can't fault them. I've had an aluminium road bike with carbon seat stays fail on me and it was the aluminium that failed not the carbon.
In the context of mountain bikes though, the main reason I'd not buy a CF frame is because it is not a thoroughly tried or tested technology. I remember the early days of aluminium frames and it wasn't pretty, however as others have mentioned CF is potentially a far more suitable material for building bike frames out of than aluminium.
plenty of good info here [url= http://www.ibiscycles.com/tech/ ]ibis[/url] and i'm only slightly biased!! btw I'm 100kg and will be taking the mojo to Les Gets in a week, not worried in the slightest.
[url=www.k1racegear.com/p-135-rib-vest-carbon-fiber-rib-protector.aspx]So is this a suicide vest?[/url]
[url= http://www.k1racegear.com/p-135-rib-vest-carbon-fiber-rib-protector.aspx ]Or maybe this[/url]
Those fish do exist, but they enter when you're up to your nuts in water, they don't swim up your urine which is what some people seem to think!
it is not a thoroughly tried or tested technology
Disagree with that actually. We're now at a point where carbon has been tried and tested - with some poor results in the past - and lessons learnt. Carbon bikes have been out there for the best part of 20 years now, this isn't a new technology. You only need to see the number of good quality, relatively cheap carbon bikes that are out there now to see that.
Carbon. Material of Champions.
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[/img]
I didn't die on my ride on a set of carbon forks last night but I suppose it's only a matter of time.
Hmm, great timing this thread ... I've just got back on the road with a warranty replacement Carbon Stumpy after breaking my S-Works Enduro. If it all gets a bit much I'll resign myself to biking round the garden ... ah, the neurotic joy of paranoia ...
SM
i must admit,i have had some paranoia about breaking my 08 s works carbon hardtail!!!had been thinking of p/xing the frame,but came to the conclusion that i would trust specialized to warranty the frame!!!also run ec90 flat easton carbon bars,but am not so worried about breaking those!!!
[i]It is also a relatively new technology to bikes[/i]
Armstrong won the Tour in 1999 on a Trek OCLV carbon bike.
Look at your fingers, (ignore your thumbs if you're from Bacup) that's ten years ago.
How long do we have to use it for?
Samuri, you do realise that as its a Columbia rider, the failure of his frame is the fault of the Garmin team? 😉
Carbon fibre dont scare me! Its Ti bolts I dont like