[Closed] If you thought mandatory full facers were a pain for UKGE...

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2015 UK GRAVITY ENDURO
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UKGE Statement on Insurance
Following the British Cycling decision to stop supporting Enduro in 2014, UKGE has subsequently taken a long, hard look at all things to do with safety, liability, insurance & everything Enduro.
In December, we chaired the first meeting of all Enduro organisers in the UK and 2015 will see us working together for the greater good of UK Enduro. We were aiming to set up a Federation for 2015 and like with BC’s membership, the plan was to incorporate insurance in with the membership. However, timescales meant that getting the Federation up and running for 2015 was not viable, but we will be putting a lot of time into moving things in the right direction. Our involvement with Bespoke financial is because they were the only insurance company willing to offer us advice on setting up the federation and to attend the meeting in December with the other organisers.
The aim of setting up a UK Federation for Enduro, is to standardise the quality and safety of all UK Enduro events, and to keep racing attainable for all levels. There are a lot of organisers jumping on the Enduro bandwagon and with such exponential growth of the sport, it is hard to ensure that standards are being maintained. This is maybe one of the reasons why SuperEnduro is taking a step back for 2015.
In 2011, when UKGE was born, the series was not at the forefront of MTB in the UK. However, it has seen significant growth and development on all levels, especially the riders and bikes. The past two seasons have seen such a massive rise in “Enduro” in the UK, we have truly struggled to understand British Cycling’s decision to drop the discipline. Particularly as UKGE were fully behind BC involvement in UK Enduro.
Before British Cycling’s decision not to endorse Enduro, UKGE had the safety umbrella of being insured by the UK’s governing body of cycling. British Cycling also gave us a set of safety guidelines to work to and this was primarily the reason behind the full-face helmet decision. Losing BC’s backing was a real set-back and this lack of support leaves organisers of Enduro in the UK in a vulnerable position. Please note that British Cycling membership and race licences are only valid at BC-sanctioned events. This means that the insurance on your BC membership is null and void for all Enduro events in the UK from 2015 onwards.
HAD British Cycling endorsed Enduro in the UK, then the plan was to start using the National ranking points system that is currently employed in Downhill and Cross Country. This would have meant we would have required every rider taking part in a UKGE event to have had Gold membership and a BC Race Licence, at a cost of £109 per year. Gold membership also offers a level of personal accident insurance, as we are currently asking our racers to take out.
At UKGE, we have always made safety our utmost priority. Because of this and the lack of a governing body, we feel personal accident insurance offers both the riders and us as organisers a level of protection for our sport, MTB Enduro. “Bespoke financial” are providing all PLI/event insurance for UKGE in 2015. We have also chosen them as our preferred supplier for your personal accident insurance as they have not only helped us with the Federation, but put together a package that we think will be the most cost-effective for you, the rider.
An annual package starts at £96 (£8/month) and not only covers you for racing your mountain bike Worldwide, but also covers you 24/7, 365 days a year, doing any activity and even at work! The Bespoke policy document personal accident cover is attached below to download. This is the minimum level of cover we require, but you are welcome to increase the level of cover if desired. Public Liability Insurance is part of the permissions process that UKGE have to adhere to before putting events on, therefore riders do not require individual liability insurance to race.
Bespoke Financial will provide us with the names of all riders who have cover with them, prior to any of our races. This enables race sign-on to be as fast and efficient as possible. For those racers with existing personal insurance cover with other companies, we will need proof that you are covered for racing and that your policy is in date. This will be needed for online race entry AND to be brought to sign-on. No proof, no race I’m afraid.
For the Under 18 category, insurance cover will not be a requirement of entry.
We asked both Helen Gaskell and James Green to be our “rider reps” because they have both attended every UKGE race since the start in 2011, and were experienced downhill racers before starting Enduro. We asked Helen to become our female representative before we started looking at our insurance options, but she has been helping us with negotiations with regard to the personal accident insurance.
If you want the continuation of the series and the further development of Enduro in the UK, then this is a necessity of the evolution.
Some have asked for more detail on the Life and Fracture Cover policy documents, you can download them below if you want to read them in full.
Fracture Cover PDF
Life Cover Policy PDF
Steve Parr – Race Director

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This would have meant we would have required every rider taking part in a UKGE event to have had Gold membership and a BC Race Licence, at a cost of £109 per year. Gold membership also offers a level of personal accident insurance, as we are currently asking our racers to take out.

Except you don't need a BC Gold licence, Silver is fine.

I'm still very "meh" on the whole thing. Don't get it. Gorrick events entirely eschew BC regs, sanctioning, insurance etc, they're immensely successful and you don't need any additional cover.

Yep, although forcing gold on everyone is consistent with forcing PA insurance on everyone it's not reqd, I can race on the road with silver which is far far moar dangerous than ENDURO. Still doesn't actually explain his reasoning for forcing everyone to get insured or how in fact this reduces the chances of UKGE getting sued?

still doesn't explain why they want you to take out personal insurance since that doesn't affect them in the running of the event.

I'd need to check, but i'm 99% sure i've never needed a Gold licence to race the BDS in the past, even as a proper BC sanctioned event.

Looks like i'll be 'buying' a policy to enter, then cancelling it.

I thought u needed gold to race DH , which is where BC and possibly UCI?? categorise enduro

looks like parr was just setting up the enduro federation with the same model

edit

BC requires silver £41 or gold £70(which comes with insurance) + race licence at £36

you can buy a single day license for road and track only
http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/membership/article/mem-st-Racing-Licence-Prices-0-Need-a-Racing-Licence--0

May have been covered (I struggle with long sentences), but has anyone approached CTC to find out about event/race insurance cover?

kimbers is Steve Parr and I claim my £5.

(No interest in UKGE, especially now. If I do an Enduro again it'll be a reasonably price Scottish one that has reasonable rules and doesn't expect me to take out unnecessary insurance and allows me to wear the helmet I deem to be most suitable)

still doesn't explain why they want you to take out personal insurance since that doesn't affect them in the running of the event

I'm guessing their logic is if a rider gets a payout from their own PA cover, he won't come after UKGE with a claim.

munrobiker - Member
kimbers is Steve Parr and I claim my £5.

see above pic- Im far more handsome 😉

BoardinBob - Member

I'm guessing their logic is if a rider gets a payout from their own PA cover, he won't come after UKGE with a claim

that's why the organisers have liability insurance

Nope, can't see any requirement on BC website about needing a Gold membership to race DH and I've clicked through as far as I dare to enter Moelfre BDS too.

Enter the BDS
There are three simple steps to racing British Cyclings National Downhill MTB Series you must first purchase membership directly from British Cycling in either [b]Silver[/b] or Gold, this allows you to purchase a ‘Full Race Licence':

From here: [url= http://www.britishdownhillseries.co.uk/enter-bds/ ]BDS Website[/url]

No wonder BC pulled out of Enduro if the spoke person can't get his rather basic but very important facts straight.

Nope, can't see any requirement on BC website about needing a Gold membership to race DH and I've clicked through as far as I dare to enter Moelfre BDS too.

Enter the BDS
There are three simple steps to racing British Cyclings National Downhill MTB Series you must first purchase membership directly from British Cycling in either Silver or Gold, this allows you to purchase a ‘Full Race Licence':

http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/membership

When asked if you are a member of a club please pop down ‘British Downhill Series’ to help ensure we have a bigger voice within British Cycling.

The second step is to purchase a ‘Full Race’ licence directly from British Cycling. You can renew this from Wednesday December the 3rd 2014 either online as below or by phone 0161 274 2010.

http://www.britishdownhillseries.co.uk/enter-bds/

So silver then, just like anything else...

Reads like an advert for bespoke to me. I do not for a single second believe that UKGE would go so far as they have without some kind of incentive. It's barely even hidden. I hope that those who race go elsewhere.

so its 20 quid a year more to race ukges for a season than bds, but you get insurance too?

and still they whinge.......... 😳

Pretty sure the included BDS uplift is better

I'm guessing their logic is if a rider gets a payout from their own PA cover, he won't come after UKGE with a claim.

Then they're idiots, as where do you think an insurance company will go to recoup their losses? Far more likely to happen too than an individual, I'd never consider going after an organiser if I got injured, but if I'd forked out for PA insurance I'd sure as hell be claiming on that.

so its 20 quid a year more to race ukges for a season than bds, but you get insurance too?

You're comparing a DH race with an enduro race. Not sure what it's like down south but the SDA rounds up here are a lot more expensive than an SES round. I sense it's just a given that DH is more expensive.

These new mandatory "extras" are a lot of additional costs. Maybe UKGE is the top series in the UK and only attracts the mega hardcore gnarly ENDURO doodz, but for the average Joe Bloggs rider they have to find

~£150 for an "enduro" full facer (could do it in a cheap DH full facer but that would be brutal
~£100 for insurance they may not want or need

I sense it's just a given that DH is more expensive.

which is funny as at ukge you get 6 timed stages over 3 days and a waymarked route of 30k or so, compared with 2 timed runs and maybe 30 minutes of riding time!

if people accept that DH is expensive, why not enduro?

if people accept that DH is expensive, why not enduro?

DH is a pretty niche discipline and with that comes expense (rightly or wrongly)

Enduro is pitched as "the type of riding you do with your mates". The thing being, when I go riding with my mates no one tells me I can't do it unless I wear a specific type of helmet and buy the insurance they think I need.

It's a better statement but still doesn't answer the essential question "what minimum level of cover is required". The longer it takes to answer that, the more suspicious people will be since it funnels everyone towards Be Spoke.

Re licences, you can race in many point scoring BC events including the SDA with just a Bronze membership and provisional licence, which is £18.90. You don't accumulate any national points, though, but for most people that's a non-issue. You can race in the welsh champs with no licence at all, you just can't compete for a champs category. again a non-issue for most.

I don't think the comparison with the BDS is accurate- it might be in a few years' time but right now enduro doesn't have that multi-level structure or level of competition.

With the BDS comparison I was just heading for national series vs national series which is how UKGE presents itself, I raced DH for a couple of years without a licence.

Kimbers, with my BC race licence I can also race road/XC/CX/DH and it gives me 10M of public liability insurance for competitive and non-competitive riding, comparing it to the policy put forward by UKGE (by the look of it) is apples-oranges.

It was a terrible statement it did not answer the fundamental reason why we actually are required to have this insurance. Other than that they feel they know what is best for us.

In the UK you are required to have at least 3rd party liability cover for car insurance, you are not required to have comprehensive cover.

It appears that the race organisers have decided that we all must have comprehensive cover because they know what is best for us. Sorry but I think I can make my own decision on what insurance I need beyond 3rd party liability.

I think this will be a disaster for UKGE as the insurers of these private policies will try and recoup the cost of their claims against UKGE's insurance, before long Enduro events wont be able to get affordable insurance.

Further to the above it's a terrible statement because it is based on seemingly untruths about BC licenses and insurance. Either UKGE have been badly advised or it's dodgy, either way it looks iffy IMO.

Dragon:You do realise the Federation meeting was held at BC HQ with 2 BC reps present? there are no untruths re: insurance and memberships, I've looked into all of this and can fully see why BC pulled out of Enduro/Gravity Enduro...

This wailing and gnashing of teeth happens with all new sports as they find their feet, progress, advance etc...

The bleating about Enduro "being a ride around with your mates" is fine for low key events or back in 2011 when organisers were having to publicise Enduro as people didn't know what on earth it was...it is now established and UKGE want to position themselves as the National series, the small club ethos of 2011 will of course be lost...these are timed events after all, it's racing and some people take it seriously. You can make a living now racing Enduro so why try to stifle the development of the sport just because some grumpy old men on STW don't like change!?

It is quite simple, Parr is trying to be the no.1 organisation in the UK, he wants a tier system pyramiding up to a National Championship, he wants all bases covered re. safety, insurance etc...if you don't like it don't enter, there are loads of events where you can wear a piss-pot lid and race without insurance...vote with your feet, if the STW demographic are representative of the wider MTB public the series will fail and Parr will have to reconsider the rules he runs under.

....however I think UKGE will be fine, the events are always over subscribed and plenty of people I have raced with are keen on having a UK Championship, Parr is trying to advance the discipline at a national level, I don't have a problem with that and hope these events are easier to get entries for now that most of STW have gone off in a strop!

you can advance the sport without having to have riders fork out for personal insurance for which they may not even get a spot. If Parr was to properly explain why riders need to pay out for personal insurance then people would no doubt be happy. The lack of any information as to why it is now required is what is pissing most people off probably.

I don't have a problem with that and hope these events are easier to get entries for now that most of STW have gone off in a strop!

This isn't about halting the progression of the sport. I agreed with FF as it actually improved safety this doesn't. People are genuinely concerned that this step could impact on event organisers ability to obtain affordable liability insurance.

So nobody can explain why there is a requirement for personal accident insurance then? Good to see in a few years the comms are still at the top level you expect from a national series pushing the boundaries of the sport.

Its a miracle the Scottish Enduro series managed to succeed last year with any of this crap...

I think that's what you call a non-explanation explanation.

Its a miracle the Scottish Enduro series managed to succeed last year with any of this crap

I think that's what you call a non-explanation explanation.

Nah, it's what you call a load of bollocks.

It blows my mind some of the goons on Facebook still blowing smoke up their arses over the whole matter too.

if your under 18 you dont need insurance 😉

Why do I need Personal accident insurance to race the UKGE series?...
Because I want to cover myself if the worst happens and I can't work! also it's now a mandatory entry requirement.
UKGEs' are technical, Physical and have a risk involved.
The question is not for UKGE to answer, Its YOU the rider who needs to ask...Do I want to race UKGE? If so then I will abide by their rules and get insurance cover, otherwise I will race elsewhere without insurance and accept the risks involved.
UKGE has no control over who enters their races and as such this mandatory rule will make people think twice about entering a national level event and hopefully think "Maybe i'll go and ride regional Enduros first and see how I get on before committing my money and time to a series that is way above my current riding level (fitness and skill)" I know I would...
And before someone says " Its not a national level event as its not BC sanctioned! " It is percieved as national level by all who race it, promote it, market it and enjoy it.

I think that's what you call a non-explanation explanation.

Its all a bit "same words, different order" isn't it. How hard would it be to have a statement along the lines of "in conjunction with our broker we have established that the minimum covers should be x/y/z.

Looking at the BC cover, Silver membership provides personal liability which hasn't been mentioned explicitly anywhere in the UKGE discussion - does that mean that the event is explicitly providing that for all entrants (i.e. insuring rider error as opposed to issues with the way the race is run).

And if its all so important, I don't really see how you can exclude juniors from requiring it.

Still clear as mud 🙁

Why do I need Personal accident insurance to race the UKGE series?...
Because I want to cover myself if the worst happens and I can't work! also it's now a mandatory entry requirement.

Except I don't need PA insurance to race the national DH series or on the road (where people have died racing), the level of cover is also pretty meh and it's still unclear how much life insurance is actually reqd.

I wonder if the Alps holiday insurance companies could conjure up a product that covers both?

Why do I need Personal accident insurance to race the UKGE series?...
Because I want to cover myself if the worst happens and I can't work! also it's now a mandatory entry requirement.

Yep, that £900 for breaking my back* is certainly going to make all the difference. My employee sickness benefits & PMI are literally quaking in their boots...

*minimum level of cover apparently.

UKGE has no control over who enters their races and as such this mandatory rule will make people think twice about entering a national level event and hopefully think "Maybe i'll go and ride regional Enduros first and see how I get on before committing my money and time to a series that is way above my current riding level (fitness and skill)" I know I would...

Hehe.

Oh, you were being serious?

I can go & race DH in nearly any series in the UK, most of which have tracks so far beyond that raced in a UKGE, at far higher speeds, with far bigger consequences for getting it wrong.

I don't need insurance for that.

You make it sound like UKGE is some brutal, tough killer weekend enduro racing. Jesus Christ. We rode round Afan trail centre for two years on the trot 🙄

@flash aka charlie whiting. Your post explains the rational of ukge to enforce these new rulings and does clear up the question of why, its just a shame that I am going to have to find another £100 this year as consequence of trying to put off people who would be in over there depth, bit miffed about that.