I seem unable to set saddle height, any pointers?

Your old saddle height seems really high for your leg length! What length cranks do you have?

I've always found lower better than high for me.

I've recently went lower on my road bike and went faster for longer with more comfort - opposite of that I always thought from old school macho stuff.

Higher gives all sorts of problems with overextending, including rocking of the pelvis to reach the pedal.

Lower starts to manifest itself in my knees.

I just got there with trail and error or bracketing. Say 735 star (that was mine not saying that you that). Try that, try +5 and -5 then work towards the best feeling. I have all my bikes from enduro to road at the same height. Can quite happily pedal my enduro with the seat partly dropped for a good distance.

Maybe also adjust seat seatback as seat angle and height affects that.

Bear in mind that crank length, and pedal and shoe stack are also variables that some calculators don't account for.

I'm 165mm cranks.

If you think it's too high, lower it while on the ride.

Is it 'flat' to the ground, where on the rails is it, what Reach & Stack has your bike, what width bars etc etc.

Tere are too many variables and TBH the stretch leg to heal is only what I use to initial set the saddle height, I then adjust it while riding proper trails with all my gear on.

I'm guessing with only a 800mm inseam you're quite short - 5'4"-5'6"?  I've a couple of pals I ride with who are short and when following them, both have saddles too high (and roll their hips).

If you're sure your inseam measurement is accurate, then a 755mm saddle height does sound much too high. 

I'm 178cm.

Measured my inseam with the book against the wall method.

Yeah, I can't feel if it's too high.

I’m 178cm.

Ah, short legs for height - so probably a high stack?

If your saddle is too high then you are probably rolling your hips to help, hence back issues. Get a professional or someone to watch you and/or bike fit.

“I’m guessing with only a 800mm inseam you’re quite short – 5’4″-5’6″?”

I’ve got riding mates with that kind of leg length who are taller than me and I’m almost 5’11! Humans vary a lot in their proportions.

I’d start down near 700mm (I run 750mm saddle height at 850mm leg length with 165mm cranks and flats) and put it up 5mm a ride and see how your knees (too low = bad) and your back (too high = bad) feels after each ride, not during.

There’s a reason we stand up for max power but if you’re trying to get that much power seated you’re going to have problems - when we stand to pedal with straighter legs the whole body can move so the lower back doesn’t get hit with weird loads from the pelvis.

Flexibility, foot length, cleat/pedal position are also factors to consider too.

Had lower back problems when I couldn't touch my toes. A few weeks of stretching cured that. Saddle was a little high too so lowered about 5mm but the back paid was cured from stretching before then.

I love how @chiefgrooveguru not only knows his saddle height (of course he does) he also knows his riding mates' leg lengths. I'm picturing him in the car park at the beginning of rides sneaking up behind people with his tape measure 🙂

I also think inseam length is wildly open to measuring errors and methods, my measured inseam is with a 10mm thick book, feet shoulder width apart, I can measure up to 84cm feet together, 84cm again with with a flexi tape directly on the inseam. I imagine a wide book similar to saddle width would read lower too.

I do think inseam has got to be one of those things like height, you bias towards bigger, because that's "better", right? So there will be a tendancy to err o  the side of bigger.

Then thinking about it even more, shouldn't "cycling" inseam be measured in a light hinge from floor to sit bones?

715 doesn't seem wildly out tbh. I'm shorter and run 720. Mrs Yak is the same as me and runs 709. We all vary massively though. What's your flexibility like? Glutes, hamstrings etc? Core strength good? If after everything you can't get it right, consider a bike fit. You might have an imbalance that may need correcting.

I’m 165mm cranks.

Mechanically it would make sense to pair short cranks with a lower saddle set back on the rails a bit because the bit you're interested in is the force you can produce at the ~3 o'clock position, so it doesn't make sense to raise the saddle with short cranks.

Unfortunately we're in the middle of a trend for 78deg seat angles and people squeezing 200mm droppers into bikes they don't fit with. So either I'm wrong or MTB'ers are fashion victims.

For MTB I'd say 710mm to start with. The Lemond Method of 0.883 X inside leg is good. ime it can feel a bit low for some for a road bike and for the MTB I'd go 5-7mm lower, but as a starting point it's the formula that seems most generally useful imo. Lemond method -5mm gets you 710mm. I don't believe adjusting the saddle height for crank length is so important if we're only talking +/- 5mm of crank, as the main power stroke of pedalling is where the crank is closer to level than vertical, but you might account for it to some extent in fine tuning.

Having said all that the Lemond method came from road riding on a 73 seat angle and a ~15mm layback post. MTBs now pitch you much further over the BB which makes the same saddle height feel different but in terms of pedalling dynamics you're pedalling around the BB axle so it doesn't matter once the STA is the same relative to the ground (steeper climbs off-road).

Then thinking about it even more, shouldn’t “cycling” inseam be measured in a light hinge from floor to sit bones

If you measure your sitting height (sit bones / flat surface you sit on to top of head) and subtract from your height you get the same number as your inside leg, to within a very small margin of error. The sit bones are roughly level with your crotch as measured with a book put into the crotch with some pressure, measured against a wall. But since the exact area of sit bone / pelvis you rest on changes with upper body angle (and saddle type I expect) I think IL is a better way to go.

It appears that I’m unable to “feel” when a saddle is too high except when it ruins my back, my lower back is spasming and tight after yesterday’s trial.

Can't you just try dropping your saddle height incrementally until it doesn't ruin your back?

Mechanically it would make sense to pair short cranks with a lower saddle set back on the rails

The slight adjustment of the saddle rearwards makes sense I think. It felt good for me at first when changing to 5mm shorter cranks on the road but in the end I went back to the original position as saddle position is about my CoM over the wheels/bike as much as pedalling dynamics. But that's just me, I don't seem to be too sensitive to exact saddle to pedal relationship as long as they're the right distance apart. For others the X - Y of saddle to crank has to be right to prevent issues.

What’s your flexibility like?

Good Q. Pedalling can feel a lot more natural at the right saddle height when your hamstring and general flexibility is good. It can make a good saddle height start to feel like it may be a bit low but that's a good sign imo, it should feel relaxed and neutral.

It appears that I’m unable to “feel” when a saddle is too high except when it ruins my back, my lower back is spasming and tight after yesterday’s trial.

That could be tight hamstrings pulling on your hips and causing lower back tension. Lower your saddle and if not already doing something like this try some basic regular stretches most days for a few weeks (just a touch-toes stretch is ok to start)?

If your saddle is too high then you are probably rolling your hips to help

and

Can’t you just try dropping your saddle height incrementally until it doesn’t ruin your back?

I'd start at the lower end of the range. But you need to do a few rides without adjusting anything and keep notes. After 4 or 5 rides, check your notes and then make one change at a time. Repeat the process.

Hip flexion angle isn't affected by seat height alone. This could be reach, stack, saddle set-back, poor flexibility, poor core strength, poor technique, etc.

A much better bet would be to pay to see a bike fit expert. They will analyse your knee, hip, other angles whilst you pedal. This is a quicker and more accurate process. Although it is still likely that you will take a few rides to adjust to the new position.

"I love how @chiefgrooveguru not only knows his saddle height (of course he does) he also knows his riding mates’ leg lengths."

Obviously I have some kind of laser device for this! 😉 Or we just occasionally ride each others' bikes and I've been confused at how low the saddles are for riders my height or taller...

Does anyone else slide back on the saddle when they want maximum seated pedalling force (not necessarily power, I think it's a lower cadence thing), so you can drive through the pedals using your hamstrings etc more, a bit like a deadlift?

Cheers for the feedback everyone.

Realistically, am I going to get an "mtb" bike fitter? ie someone that gets steep seat angles, nose down saddle for climbing steep stuff?

I think it is fair to say I have been running my seat significantly too high.

I would say my strength/flexibility is good, 15 minute yoga flow concentrating on lower body every day, no problem touching the floor, normal plank over a minute and side plank over 30s is no bother. Do bodyweight/kettlebell bits most days.

Does anyone else slide back on the saddle when they want maximum seated pedalling force (not necessarily power, I think it’s a lower cadence thing), so you can drive through the pedals using your hamstrings etc more, a bit like a deadlift?

I've noticed how a slacker STA on my single-speed is ok for low cadence grinding power climbs - generally it seems that a slacker STA or saddle position helps lower cadence power and steeper is better for spinning along.

Inseam-10cm is usually a starting point for me for BB to saddle top.

I'm not a technical rider, just a pootler, so probably don't count, but I find, that like saddles themselves, it just comes down to what feels best rather than numbers.

Pick your rule of thumb of choice and start from there, make small changes as an when you decide that your current position isn't right. Fore & aft position also counts where lower back comfort is an issue &, counterintuitively, sometimes being more stretched out can help. Whatever your attack position, I gather that you're looking for a natural 'lazy S' position for your back. I've often heard it said that you need a position you can hold for some time without your hands on the bars.

As a terrible fiddler of bikes, I'd also suggest giving each position you try a decent run in terms of saddle time & mileage (bodies do adjust).

I ride flat pedals and like a position where my heel is fractionally lower than the ball of my foot at the bottom of the pedal stroke, it lifts me from the saddle a tiny bit when I'm pedalling hard.

nose down saddle for climbing steep stuff?

Nope, never - mine are always plum level on all my bikes (road-gravel-XC-Enduro) and as I'm out of proportion (long, long inseam vs average body/arms) I also run with the saddle well forward too.

FWIW i have an 810 mm inseam. And a 710mm saddle height.
That's got me round rather a lot of races on and off road. And several ten thousand plus mile seasons.

Even weirder, i'm now on 165mm cranks... with a 715mm saddle height.
Don't forget your set back either, that can have an impact with things like hip angles and reach etc.

How does your foot rest at the bottom of the stroke? Is it flat or are your toes pointed down? Toes pointed down indicating saddle too high. Every bike fit video that I watch they all tend to say that the original saddle height was too high.

Does anyone else slide back on the saddle when they want maximum seated pedalling force (not necessarily power, I think it’s a lower cadence thing), so you can drive through the pedals using your hamstrings etc more, a bit like a deadlift?

See also layback seatposts on road bikes. My take, fwiw, is that pedalling efficiency and handling effectiveness/weight distribution have become slight divorced on mountain bikes, so saddle position is less about pedalling effectively and more about your position on the bike. Even if you wanted a layback seatpost, very few dropper posts are anything other than in-line. The slightly agricultural Specialized Command post is the only one I can think of, off the top of my head anyway.

Steeper seatpost angles put the saddle further forwards, good for climbing, but throws more emphasis onto your quads rather than your hamstrings. Or at least that's how I understand it and also my personal experience. Hamstrings more effective. So yes, sliding back on the saddle will do as you say, at least up to a point.

"Steeper seatpost angles put the saddle further forwards, good for climbing, but throws more emphasis onto your quads rather than your hamstrings. Or at least that’s how I understand it and also my personal experience. Hamstrings more effective. So yes, sliding back on the saddle will do as you say, at least up to a point."

Yes! I've noticed that when I'm really going for it I'll stand up and stomp until my quads get too fatigued, then sit and drive down through my heels, and repeat. There's also the sit and spin a lower gear approach but that doesn't work on my singlespeed!

"I ride flat pedals and like a position where my heel is fractionally lower than the ball of my foot at the bottom of the pedal stroke, it lifts me from the saddle a tiny bit when I’m pedalling hard."

If I'm really squeezing out maximum force my heel is quite a way below the pedal at the bottom of the stroke - I guess I'm trying to straighten the knee and open the hip as much as possible. I'm never having to reach with the forefoot/toes - whenever that happens on a bike I know my back will complain because my hips will be rocking.

Have you considered asking your mates how it looks as you ride and possibly a  a bike fit?

I had a bike fit for my road bike. Not cheap at £200 but i couldn't do some rides because of knee pain.

The (road race based shop) lowered my stem which wasn't a surprise but they lowered my saddle loads.

I'd been pedaling about on tip toes for years and that has been fine until I hit my 40's and did some 130 mile rides.

My road riding mates then said they'd always thought my saddle was too high. £200 well spent!

Photos are in the wrong order. It's first, last and second

I don't know about mtb bike fit. Mrs Yak had a bike fit done to deal with some pain (it worked), and I use that as a basis for setting up any type of bike for her. On a typically steeper seat tubed mtb, that means sliding the seat back or using a layback post. The only mega specific road thing I don't do is shimming one of the mtb shoes like the road shoes.

ive used this method forever and never had any issues. (not even sure where i picked it up from)

in your riding gear and shoes, lean the bike against a wall, pedal backwards (if your running flats, the ball of your foot is just in front of the axle)  and place your finger on your hip bone.

saddle too low - your hips rock, too high - your hips rock. the sweet spot between is when your hips dont rock.

i can even feel a difference when wearing different shoes or bibs/shorts.

A much better bet would be to pay to see a bike fit expert. They will analyse your knee, hip, other angles whilst you pedal.

Hmm, I have less faith in bike fitters than I used to, between two of them, both well thought off in the Scottish central belt, I ended up with a saddle height of 780mm (well, 779mm...) but over time I've gradually lowered it to 760mm and feel faster and more comfortable than ever.

I wouldn't even trust inseam measurements other than as a starter for 10, I doubt they tell you anything about e.g. tight hip flexors or piriformis or tight/weak low back muscles.

If in doubt, drop it 10mm!

Lemond works for me with 74 cm saddle height and 84 cm inseam. But I ride my TT bike 2 cm lower than this.  Always are on the side of lower is better and it’s hard to do damage from under extending but not vice versa. There are other variables like reach but it’s a decent starting point.

Hmm, I have less faith in bike fitters than I used to

I have almost none. Much like coaches, it's become far too easy and unregulated to do a couple of basic online courses, get yourself set up and get a website/facebook page running. Couple of "glowing testimonies" from those with zero biomechanical quirks and then boom, it's £120 for a 90 minute fitting. Or 50 quid for a months coaching plan, copy and pasted from an online resource with some random bits jiggled around.

This works really well on all my bikes   

couple of basic online courses

My badges cost a lot more. But I don’t charge 😉

Position over the bottom bracket matters. If you are too far back then a lemond or other formula will lead you to be over extended. Can lead to exterior knee pain and ITB irritation. I like to see how the weight is taken when pedalling to set fore and aft position, together with saddle height. If it feels to stretched, lower a cm and move it forward half a cm. See how that feels.

To be honest, we fret a lot, but humans aren’t THAT variable. In general. There are exceptions, but they are relatively few.

Kicking around the idea too of going down to 155mm cranks, they can only help everything, right? All my joints going through a smaller range of motion.

I’ve found that (shorter) 165mm cranks help my bad knee a lot - but I have a very faulty right ankle with limited mobility (I can’t do trampolines or bouncy castles, or as I’ve just discovered, unicycles). If you don’t have anything structurally wrong with your body I’d suggest you don’t need to go to even shorter cranks.

I have mcl and knee meniscus damage in one knee.

Aha! So do you find you need to keep a more open knee angle, hence the high saddle height? In that case shorter cranks will help!

What size chainring do you have? Are you in the granny gear much?

Has anyone mentioned about trying to slide your saddle forward or back a bit? I find when riding flat pedals my foot is a bit more forward compared to clipless pedals and move my saddle a little forward to compensate.

Another thing that isn't all equal, is things like pedal and shoe sole thickness, both can make a difference.

Lastly, as we age, we get less flexible and a lifetime of being seated starts to take affect, which cycling can then exacerbate. So, things like functional strength training, general stretching and use of a foam roller (massage) can really help loosen up and activate your glutes, hip flexors, quads, hamstrings and lower back. Try to to the above 2-3 times a week. Worked for me and I had awful pelvic tilt and lower back pain.

After a good few rides with my lower saddle my hips and back feel a lot better.

Starting to now get knee pain/feeling loss of control at the top of stroke, a strong argument for trying a bit higher now, right?

I've done some knee angle measurements, finding my knee angle is about 142 degrees static, closer to 137 degrees dynamic, further evidence to go a touch higher again, right?

Either *very* slightly higher, or shorter cranks.

I did have a go putting my saddle up 5mm, I got scared and put it back after though.

This was on the trainer, the feel was quite pronounced, interestingly my average cadence dropped from 91 rpm to 85 rpm, the stroke felt stronger, but knee wasn't 100% happy still. So said to me it needed to go higher still.

Feels like I'm in the realms of being limited at both ends due to injuries, shorter cranks should bring both ends closer to each other, so should end up happier. CBA spending the money though.

Bear in mind you might just need to get used to it, knee pain after first ride out might not mean much.

My knee started sore this morning but all it took was a mental cue to pedal properly (see point someone made above about learning to pedal again). For me, the cue is not to push the pedals up and down (which brings in the quad) but to focus on pushing forward with the hip when the foot is coming over, like you're opening up the hip rather than pushing down on the pedal.

Starting to now get knee pain/feeling loss of control at the top of stroke, a strong argument for trying a bit higher now, right?

Perhaps keep it there a while first if pain isn't too bad, go easy and see if it settles - I think it takes a lot of hours to get used to something in a way that you know it's not causing issues or you're able to isolate things. You can move these things along too fast but it's hard to change things too slowly.

All in all sounds like shorter cranks would be money well spent?