Looking at building one of these new fangled big wheelers with boosty hubs.
On the whole I'm a big fan of DT. They just don't need touching year in year out, they're lighter and I 'think' they roll better (could be me) - I'm of the opinion that the racket from Hope freehubs is just energy being wasted!
However I've not used anything Hope more recent than original Pro2s.
The big thing is that I can get mates rate on Hope, whereas I pay real money for DT. That adds up to over £200 difference in price. (I'm aware of DT350, but they're not sufficiently cheaper than 240 to make much of a difference, especially when they're only fractionally lighter than the Hopes.)
Written down like that it seems bleeding obvious to go Hope, but I know it'll nag me if I don't "do it right". (1st world problems).
Anybody know of a cheap source for DT240s? The eastern europe ebay guy seems to have vanished...
Ta
Jon
I mean yeah they are better but hope at mates rates is tempting.
Action bikes .De or Germany in fact is good for dt
Agree with your analysis, had a similar choice myself earlier this year and went with Hope 'cos of a similar price differential.
Hope are still a damn good hub and £200 is £200.
I'd say not comparible hubs. DT 350 vs Hope then yes a toss up, the 240s win hands down in terms of weight and design. But as you say they are more expensive... maybe work out what you are willing to pay, and either buy the Hopes at mates rates or except you need to pay a lot more to get a marginally better hub. I say marginally as both are great products, and at those levels it's marginal gains.
I went Hope on price alone. I am aware of the reputation of DT, but I've never had any issues with Hope, and at another 50% plus on top of the price of my wheelset, I didn't think it would be worth it.
If I were spending say, a grand on a wheelset where it was proportionally less, I might have been able to justify. But I wasn't, so I couldn't. And my Pro4s have been faultless.
My experience and logic mirrors yours entirely, however, easy availability of parts at reasonable prices counts heavily in hope favour, and since their switch to stainless bearings, their reliability is much closer to DT Swiss than it was before.
DT spares, whilst not needed often, are less easy to come by at short notice as well as prohibitively expensive.
In the same boat as you right down to the preferential hope price.
I went hope. No reason not to. I also factored in the extra cost of a ratchet upgrade for the DT as its something I do notice and does affect my riding.
I'd say go with Hope - I've a set of Pro 2 Evo based wheels that have done over 10,000Km with no problems whatsoever. Standard bearings should you need spares, don't know about DT Swiss.
I do know of two instance of Hope hub shells cracking but don't know how much use either had been through.
Hope warranty ftw.
Dog ate the green grippy cover of my hope light's battery last week - not a part you can purchase directly. Hope just sent one out...
I'll use them as much as I can...
They're not perfect, but they are quick and easy to sort.
Had same dilemma just couple weeks ago although I don't have the luxury of Hope at mates rates.
UK build price for my wheels with Hope was £500 - DT 240 build from actionsports.de was £552. In my case the lower price difference sent me the DT way.
Next hub I fancy will cost more and weigh more than both. I'm really interested in the onyx racing idea.
DT 240s are the better hubs, better than chris king even. the issue is always price
They are very nice. They're light, smooth and durable. It's just that slow pick up that bugs me. I find myself clocking the cranks a lot on technical climbs.
36T star ratchet, onzadog? Sounds better too!
As mentioned above, whenever I've considered DT, I've factored in the star ratchet upgrade cost as well. I know it exists, it just bumps up the price.
I'm surprised it's not in as standard by now.
That sounds like a resounding Hope vote then!
I agree about the ratchet upgrade - another chunk of cost.
Spares availabilty for the DTs I've had simply hasn't been an issue as I've not needed any!
Hopes on the other hand, across the 8 (I think) hubs I have, there's a gentle trickle of bearings, pawl springs, pawls, and they do need an annual (at least) strip down. Sure the spares availability is awesome, but you do need 'em!
Money no object, 240s.
Real world, Hope.
@jonedwards I think I've cleaned/regreased the freehub twice in three years and I'm not exactly precious about riding conditions. The bearings are the originals.
Money no object, 240s.
Chris King surely?
I've had Hope
I've had DT
I've still got Chris King. 8 years old, numerous Alp trips still perfect inside. one bike part that has been constant on numerous frames forks etc.
Hope or DT as a choice, DT no question. Quicker ratchet engagement nicer sound by far from the rear than Hope IMO.
Go hope and spend £200 on upgrading the spokes or rims.
Rotational weight is more important IMHO
Hope have better colour choices too. Remember red is faster!
Coolhandluke, hope has quicker pick up unless you pay more to upgrade the DT star ratchet.
Look for some used DT240s. I did exactly that and got a pair for under £100 and I can’t break the damned things. As mentioned above, Hope are OK but they do get through bearings a bit quick.
Hold your nerve and get some DTs and you’ll be better off in the long run.
Example
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F382305214925
Chris King surely?
Referred to this choice only. CK would be a fair shout if it was anything.
@ PeterPoddy - trying to find a 6 bolt, Boost, XX1 hub second hand is going to be unlikely. Otherwise S/hand is far more my style! (our current sets of DTs came this route)
King - not interested. Style over substance IME. My other half has a pair of R45s and they take far more maintenance than anything to keep running sweet. They're jewelry quality and when they're freshly serviced they spin forever, but they really don't like bad weather.
JonEdwards, If you can stomach a DT350 instead of a 240, you can have a new 32h 12x148 XD/XX1 hub for 163 euros, around £145. There's 10euros shipping to add, no import/vat because Europe. Starbike, Germany.
Admittedly that's centre lock not 6-hole, but that makes it 265g not 300g... Plenty of weight in hand if you wanted to chuck an adaptor in.
After pricing up the various conversions to try to make a sh bargain hub work, I'm going this route for now I think. For ref, the equivalent 240 hub at the same shop is 277 euros...
Used to be quite cut and shut that if you could afford the DT240 hubs, get them. Not quite so much any more.
Why? Well firstly the 240’s are now quite a bit more expensive than they used to be. Secondly, the Hope Pro4 is a fairly significant improvement over the Pro2 EVO in several ways. Thirdly you’ve also got the DT350 hubs now, which are Hope money for 240 internals on a cheaper, heavier hub shell (still lighter than Hope just mind).
I’ve had them all, all have their positives and negatives. I’ve had Chris King’s too and they have too... As do the E13 TRSr’s on my full sus right now, the Mavic Crossmax XL’s on my Hardtail etc, the Novatec’s and Chosen hubs I’ve had before too... And I built some ONYX Racing hubs for a guy a year or so ago, lovely things with instant pickup, but seals designed for dry US conditions and they ain’t light!
You pays your money and takes your choice...
Personally, in the world of ever changing hub standards where things are becoming obsolete overnight, I’d say there’s more reason to spend less on your hubs right now especially as Hope or DT350’s are so good. Hope also have the benefit that adapters can be purchased to fit just about any frame/fork combo around unlike many other hubs.
If anyone is interested, just like PeterPoddy above I picked up some cheap 2nd hand DT240’s myself recently, so I’ve got 2 pairs of brand new 32H hubs spare that I was going to build for my own bikes but won’t be now. They are DT350’s and Hope Pro4’s in red, both 100x15 front and 142x12 rear, and I can do with either Shimano or SRAM XD freehubs on either (or indeed can convert rear hubs to QR on either set)... Drop me a PM if any good to anyone.
More money [s]no object, 240s.[/s] than sense
Chris King surely?
😉
I would normally go for DT, but two hundred quid is alot of cash. Whatever you get, make it centre lock!
Also, a mate posted a pic only yesterday of a freshly cracked Hope hub, dunno if it was a Pro 4, but would be concerned if they still have this problem.
Like everyone else says, DT240S are better at absolutely everything. But they're stupendously expensive and boost has screwed up the old "get old wheels and reuse the hubs trick" (of course it has, because most of the point of boost was to make good old hubs obsolete).
I'm a DT fanboi, in your shoes I'd have Hope
Davidtaylforth - what's so good about centre lock?
Genuine q. I'm looking at some new road wheels and some are centre lock. I have no CL discs but loads of spare 6 bolt discs.
I'm easy either way, but interested in any particular advantage.
@ PeterPoddy - trying to find a 6 bolt, Boost, XX1 hub second hand is going to be unlikely. Otherwise S/hand is far more my style! (our current sets of DTs came this route)
Fairy nuff! 🙂
If get 350s in that case.
Mboy - what have hop supposedly done to improve on the Pro 4? I’ve got one sitting in the workshop, 14 months old, and the innards are literally scrap. It needs new FH body, pawls, bearings and spacers. 2 bearings self destructed and ground round inside and trashed it. Admittedly it’s been used in some shitty conditions, but it should last longer than that.
@mary_Hinge here's a [url= http://bike-advisor.com/bicycle-guides/centerlock-or-six-bolts.html ]discussion about centre lock vs 6 bolt.[/url] It's up to you to decide which set of advantages you prefer.
@peterPoddy - what do people do to hubs to get them in to that state? I ride in some pretty crap conditions and have yet to trash any make of hub even with minimal maintenance.
Mboy - what have hop supposedly done to improve on the Pro 4?
The improvements ON the Pro4 OVER the Pro2 are... Bigger bearings, more points of engagement, stronger axle and hubshell etc.
I’ve had to replace bearings on 2 DT Swiss hubs in the last 2 weeks that had been ridden through some shifty conditions too. Admittedly the Star Drives just needed a clean up and a bit of lube...
None of em are perfect! I love the precision needle roller bearings and the freehub mechanism on Chris King hubs. I don’t like the price, the fact they’re not as reliable as many other hubs, the proprietary tools needed to look after them, or the fact they’re heavier than their competition.
Like you I loved how simple Shimano cup and cone hubs were, but in the modern world of through axles front and rear, I don’t love just how tiny the bearings are in Shimano’s current hubs and how unreliable they have become as a result!
As for freehub body’s... Lightweight ally freehub bodies have no place in modern MTB’s being run with huge cassettes! The Shimano HG standard has definitely out stayed it’s welcome here. The SRAM XD drive standard is vastly superior here!
Davidtaylforth - what's so good about centre lock?
Very easy to fit the rotors, no chance of stripped threads or rounded bolts. The main one for me is the rotors seem to be straight! Never get any rub, often seemed to have some with six bolt rotors. Only downside is they're probs a bit heavier.
I'm aware of DT350, but they're not sufficiently cheaper than 240 to make much of a difference
£150 vs £300 RRP rear, £50 vs £150 RRP front.
They're as good as the 240 for quality and robustness, just they're a little heavier, but way cheaper. Minor niggle on convertibility with the 350 if you need 20mm front hub as you have to get a dedicated 20mm hub. Other than that, it's swappable stuff.
Star ratchet is awesome. I'm not fussed on the ratchet upgrade. Slower pickup but that never bothers me.
Maintenance, they never seem to need any. Opened some of mine up after few years expecting to need some cleaning up and check the bearings, and it was still like brand new. Tiny dash of oil to keep the ratchets quiet and that's it.
vs Hope - price. Hope are easy maintenance, but as I say, DT just barely needs any anyway (plus it's pretty simple if you do need to do any). Personally for me I can't stand Hope hub noise so rules them out, but that's just me.
Centerlock vs 6 bolt - 6 bolt you can carry a spare bolt and tool in a pocket or backpack. Centerlock comes undone mid ride, and much more of a problem, unless you carry the big tool with you. Also you're forced into two-piece and higher cost rotors, unless you use the adapters but they're a struggle to use with some tools because of the way the lugs stick out. Centerlock does make it slightly lighter though.
Very easy to fit the rotors, no chance of stripped threads or rounded bolts. The main one for me is the rotors seem to be straight! Never get any rub, often seemed to have some with six bolt rotors. Only downside is they're probs a bit heavier.
The rotors might be a tiny bit heavier, but that's more than made up for by less material in the hub. Centrelock is actually a bit lighter, but...
I've had mixed experiences with it. I've come across many rotor/hub interfaces where there's more play in the splines than I would accept, and I've had issues with the lockring coming undone repeatedly, despite some threadlock on the lockring and doing it up to the required torque settings.
I prefer the idea of centrelock, in practice I find 6 bolt more reliable.
Overall, Centrelock will let you build a lighter pair of wheels- possibly by as much as 100g for no extra cost, but payback is an extremely limited set of choices for rotors (not actually a problem if you use Shimano rotors). That blocky lump the IS bolts go into is quite a lot of metal. The ‘what if lockring comes undone?’ point is valid as most wont have a cassette tool in their bag, but tbh it shouldn’t be coming undone anyway- I’d be asking questions about why it was happening.
Really I think this comes down to taste. The 240’s are twice the price of Hope but noticeably lighter with a different drive mechanism and different Good/bad points. The 350’s are toe-to-toe with Hope on price and still lighter with the same character as the 240 just not as lighter. Excepting 20mm they’re basically as convertible as each other.
Whats the really world difference between 240 and 350, apart for 50g weight total saving. Is it better machining tolerances, or better bearings? The weight saving on the front hub is only 10g, so what is the extra £100 getting you?
IIRC the 350 front hubs aren't adaptable? Not such an issue these days. And I'm pretty sure they come with cheaper bearings, though that's really not a very big deal in a well sealed hub
[quote=squealingbrakes]Whats the really world difference between 240 and 350, apart for 50g weight total saving. Is it better machining tolerances, or better bearings? The weight saving on the front hub is only 10g, so what is the extra £100 getting you?
The other difference I understand is that the 350 is manufactured in a plant in a country with lower labour rates than the country where the 240 is made. (I forget which the two countries are). I've never owned a 240 (and probably never will) but I do have a 350 rear hub, and I'm very happy with it indeed.
Other than the weight saving and the country of manufacture, I believe every thing else about them is the same. Same ratchet system, same bearings.
IIRC the 350 front hubs aren't adaptable
Only with 20mm. Regular hub can't convert to 20mm and vice versa. The 20mm is a dedicated fatter hub. 240 you need the oversize hub though but think it converts to all sizes.
15mm to QR is no problem and the kit is provided with the wheel.
Few have 20mm these days. Just numpties like me. Though I also have a 15mm 350, plus a set of M1900 which are 370? pawl based hubs.
I have hopes on one bike, dt350 straight pull on the other. Both good, low maintenance and easy to adapt - I've converted my hopes from qr to thru-axle, changed to a steel freehub and fitted the torque caps to the dt350 - really easy jobs.
I would be perfectly happy with either hubs again, Hope have the edge on colour choice and UK manufacture but the 36t DT ratchet sounds a lot nicer and is easier to service.
Personally for me I can't stand Hope hub noise so rules them out, but that's just me.
It’s not just you!
I’d have totally silent hubs if I could. There’s no reason for a hub to make a noise at all.
Ah cheers Deadkenny, I thought the QR and 15mm were different shells.
20mm, sigh. My 36s have adaptable axles and there's absolutely no reason to use the 15mm if your hubs can do it, it's just better- lighter, stiffer, 15mm is better at nothing. And apparently that was a bit embarassing for Fox, champions of 15mm, so they've stopped offerign the convertible option. ****s.
My issue with Dt is that they look a bit cheap. I mean they have just a sticker stuck on. If I'm spending good money on hubs, I'd go with hope, and if I'm spending even more money then it'd be Chris King. I just wish CK would make some centre lock mtb hubs.
Hopes are not close to the DT's in terms of design, reliability, durability or performance. That pawl design is nowhere near as robust as the ratchet system. It just isn't.
I love the hope noise, but I don't love that they drag like a bastard or that every time you crack one open, a pawl or two has snapped.
My issue with Dt is that they look a bit cheap. I mean they have just a sticker stuck on
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