Fascinating thread, I have been thinking of making a frame myself for a while. Has anyone dabbled with 15CDV6 yet?
K9 Industries DH001-S has a 15CDV6 main triangle.
I found this bicycle tubeset too, from Gilco - http://www.trafiltubi.com/doc/eng/chisiamo3.htm
It looks a really interesting steel, though I don't think it's up there with 853 or OX Platinum (but I am interested enough to email them).
also, taiwan ain't china. call someone from Taiwan chinese would really annoy themal
Taiwan is also known as "The Republic of China" so perhaps not. Effectively it's what left of pre-communist China.
I think the racism thread is a bit of old toss really, HTTP404 has missed StMCGroos point completely - he explicitly said it was about economies - ie lets support our own economy because ultimately it will come back to line our pockets.
I want a British built bike because we can do it, and as the OP said with the changing economies here and "over there" the price difference might not be so much, and because of Stu MCGroo's point about the economy , and because of British pride. Is it racism to support the national team at rugby/wendyball/cricket/etc no it bloody well isn't, so supporting the national team at engineering/manufacturing is a good thing.
brant - Premier MemberI must say that personally I have no great "national pride" in Britain
I hope this doesn't turn out to be your Ratner moment..
Kempfab - I assumed you were talking about Butting (thickness reduction)- not fitting together of tubes. So because you mentioned it I wondered if you have access to butting equipment or know of an outfit that does. My experience in the exhaust industry doesn't cover butting tubes. Obviously reynolds do this but I think its all done in the states or far east now, I wonder if there is any butting capability in the UK.
EDIT : Have just been informed that Reynolds do all their butting in the UK in House.
"over there"
😯
EDIT : Have just been informed that Reynolds do all their butting in the UK in House.
Except on Reynolds 520 of course, which is made at Founderland in Taichung.
Yeah well the bloke who told me this I'm not 100% sure is correct because 953 for example is a carpenter product and they are US. Anyway my point was in exploring the OP's idea I wonder if anyone in the UK has the capability to butt tube, do you know of anyone?
As it's driven by economics and with a weak pound and inflation picking up in China, maybe what we'll see is the good established designers (eg Brant, Cy, Sam etc) bring production to the UK as it starts to be able to compete. Has the additional advantage of reducing transport costs and time (for the UK market, at least). There should be a good pool of expereinced skilled welders and fabricators in the UK.
Brant
"Mr Wong? I think it's a Mrs Chen actually. And I'll let her know that "John Bull" is not happy with her handiwork. If it's awful, send it back and we'll get you a fresh one. "
bit of overspray in the seattube/bb and its a bit orange peeley in places but nothing a bit of t-cut wont sort. Not an issue for the money.
Why do people think that certain production run frames are built in Taiwan purely for money reasons? Could it not be that the expertise is there, and not in the UK now? If you want UK built, just go to one of the many custom builders out there and get exactly what you want.
In Taiwan, working in a factory/welding up bike frames is still seen as a good honest job. Over here, most people would consider that kind of work beneath them nowadays. That's just one reason why Taiwan has a thriving manufacturing industry and Brtain doesn't.
I blame ridiculous footballers wages, WAGs and reality TV for turning this nation's minds to mush and for turning the youth into a nation of wannabe celebs instead of thinkers/grafters.
Why do people think that certain production run frames are built in Taiwan purely for money reasons? Could it not be that the expertise is there, and not in the UK now?
Because the engineering workshop we used to send anything more taxing than weliding cabinets together charged arround £1 per mm of weld depending on thickness/meterial.
When O-O can sell a frame for £125, and it costs us that much to weld two bits of water pipe together, I'd know where an accountant would get his frames made.
the price difference might not be so much
Trade with the far-east is usually in USD and the pound against this currency has been relatively stable.
HTTP404 has missed StMCGroos point completely
My point is even if you could build and produce a frame in the UK [i]economically[/i] - could you do it [i]competitively[/i]? Two completely different things.
And what would be the [i]raison d'etre [/i]for this frame? Hence my quip about the sticker on the tube.
Convince me.
unfortunately this thread has now gone sour, the whole point was to determine whether or not a frame of comparable quality to the best coming from the far east could be produced in the uk for the same price.
to reiterate... the same quality and the same price but made in the uk.
to double reiterate... not of lesser quality and not for a premium price.
shall i reiterate again?
oh, http404, i struggling to find the point you made about economically and competitively, where is that exactly.
also, please understand there is a difference between patriotism and racism and please do not imply that i am racist.
The answer is "no". There are currently no companies in the UK who can mass produce bike frames to the same volumes, quality and for the same prices as companies providing similar services in Taiwan.
Stu McGroo - Memberunfortunately this thread has now gone sour, the whole point was to determine whether or not a frame of comparable quality to the best coming from the far east could be produced in the uk for the same price.
to reiterate... the same quality and the same price but made in the uk.
to double reiterate... not of lesser quality and not for a premium price.
shall i reiterate again?
+1
[i]Hence my quip about the sticker on the tube.[/i]
It's in there somewhere.
The answer is "no". There are currently no companies in the UK who can mass produce bike frames to the same volumes, quality and for the same prices as companies providing similar services in Taiwan.
mike - can you reiterate that again? 🙂
mike-at-dialledbikes -
.....There are currently no companies in the UK who can mass produce bike frames to the same volumes, quality and for the same prices as companies providing similar services in Taiwan.
i know there are currently no companies doing such a thing, what norton is asking is that with the changing economies is there now a possibility to start such a company?
As a matter of interest roughly how many units do Brant/Mike/Sam/et al shift each per annum?
Stu, anything is possible with sufficient start up capital. But if you're trying to compete with overseas manufacturing, it's almost impossible to compete on labour costs because those will always be lower in emerging/developing markets than they are over here.
The UK govt sold the British manufacturing industry down the river a long time ago in favour of "making money" rather than "making things". But that's a whole different thread .......
Simple economics, the concept of free money (cash one the floor)
Two economist walking down a busy street, they notice a £50 note on the floor, the one ahead bends down to pick it up, and hurts his back in the process. The other econimist says there can't be £50 on the floor because if there was someone else would have picked it up.
For what seemed like easy money (£50 on the floor, £250,000pa to make bike frames in your garrage) he now has to pay a chirporactor £50 to sort his back out. The idea is that there is never such a thing as free money, if there was brant/mike/sam etc would have picked it up off the floor before you even got there.
So yes you could build bikes in this country, but don't expect any free money, the market is probably very small (STW'ers are more niche than average, and theres still under 100 replies, and people arent paying £500 to reply), and the profit margin even smaller.
mike-at-dialledbikes - Member
In Taiwan, working in a factory/welding up bike frames is still seen as a good honest job. Over here, most people would consider that kind of work beneath them nowadays. That's just one reason why Taiwan has a thriving manufacturing industry and Brtain doesn't.I blame ridiculous footballers wages, WAGs and reality TV for turning this nation's minds to mush and for turning the youth into a nation of wannabe celebs instead of thinkers/grafters
Well said.
+1 for the above
I am a welder/fabricator, and could earn more elsewhere, but I am burdened with a passion for engineering 😐
I would LOVE to make bikes, and will have a go sometime, but need to do some more research first.
We have the skills in the UK, but in my experience we are poor at small production efficiency.
Thinking a little differently, would there be a market for a British made frame in other countries?
Kempfab, send me an email address in profile. 8)
Thinking a little differently, would there be a market for a British made frame in other countries?
I think On-One was exported to the Netherlands for a while, but am not certain how successfull that was.
Mike, this comment:
[i]it's almost impossible to compete on labour costs because those will always be lower in emerging/developing markets than they are over here.[/i]
and this comment:
[i]The UK govt sold the British manufacturing industry down the river a long time ago[/i]
Can't really go together. Either the Govt has done nothing to support British manufacturing jobs, (and the only way it could do that against low paid overseas workers would be to either keep UK prices artificially high, or suppress wages, neither would be popular)or it believes in the Free Market, and tries to build an economy that doesn't rely on making things. Look at Germany's struggle with the downturn.
This is global economics at its most basic, it is better, cheaper, easier to have these sorts of frames made in countries that have a manufacturing base capable of doing it. Try to start in the UK, you'd never get back your investment on set-up, or the frames would be too expensive if you did it through an existing company. So, in answer to the OP. No it isn't.
NickC, you can have that one. Far too heavy and boring a subject and too early in the morning to argue the toss about.
I think we agree on your final paragraph.
Let's take a step back here...you need to market a product that has a competitive advantage. In other words it is superior in a way the consumer recognises. There are lots of reynolds british built bikes/frames already on the market, why would anyone buy yours?
to reiterate... the same quality and the same price but made in the uk.
and the answer has been no all along.
Curtis are the closest case you could look at, they could have built their off the peg bikes in the UK. But they don't, they're made in the far east. If they could have built them in house for less than the cost of building them abroad they would have done.
Or to look at it another way, Dialled 853, cotic Soul, Thorn raven, etc all 853 (in places), all UK designed, all tiawan built (I think, certainly far east), all £380 (give or take a bit). Now if one of those manufactueres was making sufficient profit to be in a postion to cut prices, they would do. Otherwise (assuming they are all have the same costs and therefore making the same profits) one of the others would. Its back to the cash on the table, there is no cash on the table, becasue someone else would have taken it. Unless you'r suggesting that they are colluding and price fixing?
If you still don't believe the answer your getting, by all means draw up a business plan, go to the bank, hire a lockup, buy equipment, hire a welder, a machinist and a marketing guru and prove us all wrong.
could try to artificially peg the currency lower, thereby artificially inducing a competitive advantage?
[Mike at Dialled] In Taiwan, working in a factory/welding up bike frames is still seen as a good honest job. Over here, most people would consider that kind of work beneath them nowadays. That's just one reason why Taiwan has a thriving manufacturing industry and Brtain doesn't.
There are also plenty of people who'd be glad of the work. They'd still be dearer than doing it in Taiwan.
To me the obvious reason why we don't have a "thriving" manufacturing sector is that we have relatively expensive labour, so everything that can be mechanised has been. As an example, there are far fewer steelworkers in Sheffield than there were in the 70s or 80s, but more steel is produced.
To put it another way, welding things together isn't a good way of making a living in a country like the UK - once you've got the line set up, and the welder on the right settings, almost anyone can be trained to do it repeatedly. On the other hand, Brant's mate needs to be able to weld to make a living, but he also needs to understand the MSA rule book, a bit of physics and engineering, a few things about vehicle dynamics and be a skilled fabricator in order to make a decent roll cage.
The manufacturing that is most succesful in the UK is high-tech, high-value, low-volume stuff, and I can't see that changing for a while.
By no means identical frames I know, but this is one of the interesting comparisons that started me wondering if a UK build is viable:
[url= http://www.bobjacksoncycles.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=45 ]£380[/url]
[url= http://www.singularcycles.com/peregrine.html ]£540[/url]
yes and before anyone says it I'd probably have the Singular too, but I'm talking economics, not personal taste.
Apples and Oranges.
couldn't agree more Brant - one is built from Reynolds 631 in the UK and one isn't...
You have much to learn.
I'm just adding a point before I have got through all of the thread. I just want to make a point about market price.
We have On-One steel frames at around the £150 mark, Blue Pig at the ~£250 mark, Kinesis Versa at £330ish, then Cotic Soul & Orange P7 at the £500 region. As I mentioned in an early post I had a quote from Rourke in the summer for a 625 (I think) at about £650 in a single solid colour with contrast panels.
So your UK fabricated frame has surely got to be saleable at less than that £650? Otherwise the only advantage is that you can buy the frame for immediate delivery with a pre-determined colour and fittings. Otherwise you are going to be too close to bespoke builders which will have the -ve of building time but the advantage of exact fittings you ask for and colours that you pick.
My feeling, and it is just assumptions and feelings is, that you will need to be at no more than a Soul in a decent steel. Maybe would not have to be 825 as the UK fab may be enough to sell an "inferior" steel at the same price.
In the very early days of Orange didn't they have the Clockwork that was outsourced and the Formula that was built by a bespoke UK builder?
As for the talk of costs of tools, jigs etc. That was why I agreed that a non-cycle industry steel fabricator may be the way to go. They will have a lot of common tooling and workforce with skills and capacity to produce the frames. If it's a one-man band I really don't think that you would be able to keep the price low.
One of the companies that I used when I was working is Watermark in Derby. They are a good stainless fabricator and I'm sure they could manage bike frames easily. If they wanted to and had capacity.
I'll elaborate. The BJ frame is a really simple build for them. Not a low skilled thing, but fast and not hard for them to do. Skilled builders make for quick clean up on lugged builds like that. It uses simple lugs, readily available.
Sam's build really is quite different. Small batch. It's got an EBB. Disc mounts. Two tone paint. It includes carriage. Really funky lugs - see Sam has modern 1.125in steerer - that's hard to find and not cheap! Those will be cast lugs too, not cheaper pressed ones (I presume the BJ uses those).
I got offered an apprenticeship by Mr Jackson when I was 16, but I turned it down to take my A Levels. I wonder how it would have all panned out?
They are a good stainless fabricator and I'm sure they could manage bike frames easily. If they wanted to and had capacity.
Really, please, don't underestimate the complexities of jigging, fabricating and aligning a bicycle frame to acceptable tolerances.
I aren't Brant but they built machines for us that used a fair number of parts and on some of them as there were motorised moving parts they needed to be able to get alignment good and with good tolerances. I wasn't trying to say that this particular company could fab bike frames, and as I said there is a good chance they they wouldn't want to as well. But IME (which isn't massive by any means) there still are a number of SME fabricators in the UK, they do have good skills and may be able to do the job.
If you could get some proper CAD drawings done you could try ringing round and trying to get quotes for 20/50/100 off frames. If you could specify tubes to use and maybe any parts (BB,Head tube, cable guides/stops etc).
If I was serious about doing this I'd probably get some UK bespoke frames made up as prototypes to get the ride feel right. One at a time so that I could get the ride feel right with each iteration. Maybe lend one to STW or someone similar, friends etc to get their opinion. Once I was happy with a frame design I'd get it drawn up and then go out for tenders.
So at the end of the day you could lose 2 or 3 grand just prototyping and when and if you get quotes back find that it is economically not viable.
For me it'd definitely be a post lottery win project. Too much in debt and too cowardly otherwise.
so you can buy an off-the-peg, brazed and lugged road frame, built in leeds for £380 from bob jackson.
1. what's the quality of a bob jackson frame like?
2. does bob jackson have the ability and technical knowledge to produce a welded mtb frame?
3. if the answers to 1 & 2 are favouirable, how much would they charge?
EDIT; looking at the bob jackson website it all seems to be road bikes, so they either consider mtb to be the devils own work or the answer to question 2 is no.
EDIT2; or they don't see a market for uk built mtb frames!
or alternatively, can you buy a brazed and lugged road frame of camparable quality to bob jackson, built in china or taiwan and if so how much are they?
[url= http://www.on-one-shop.co.uk/acatalog/The_Lincolnshire_Poacher.html ]Lincolnshire Poacher?[/url]
£245 without fork
although that has fancier lugs I think.
or alternatively, can you buy a brazed and lugged road frame of camparable quality to bob jackson, built in china or taiwan and if so how much are they?
Lincolnshire Poacher?£245 without fork
although that has fancier lugs I think.
What he said ------^
Although as Brant said, not all luggs are created equal. And Fixie-inc (IIRC) are knocking out welded and painted 953 frames for £1000, and I don't remember them being made in the UK! Which I guess proves that brand/material kudous can be worth more than the frame!
[dribbling]
Mercian in Derby make dribble worthy XC bikes, If I won the lottery I'd get one (well, probably several) made up in subtle variations of the Paul Smith colours [/dribbling]
So in summary, identical frames, to make it in the UK is 50% more (at least).
thisisnotaspoon - So in summary, identical frames, to make it in the UK is 50% more (at least).
ditto
There's only one problem stopping a UK built frame being a viable option and that's start-up capital.
To say that a UK company can't compete with the far-east in manufacturing is nonsense. HOPE seem to shift a fair bit of kit, often competing against massive companies such as Shimano and SRAM.
HOPE seem to shift a fair bit of kit, often competing against massive companies such as Shimano and SRAM.
Your thought process would work if you wanted to CNC this frame out of billet aluminium.
There's only one problem stopping a UK built frame being a viable option and that's start-up capital.
Start-up is great. A sustainable business model is even better.
I think you'll find production overheads per unit relatively high.
Just to stick my oar in at this late stage, I did quite a lot of research into doing things in the UK when I started Cotic, and there are plenty of people out there who could do it, but to be quite honest none of them were in the least bit interested. Anyone who can build bike frame materials to proper quality and tolerances is either doing motorsport or defence contracting. Both of these industries have vast quantities of money sloshing around them, and a habit of "JFDI, I need it tomorrow evening, here's the cash" type behaviour. I guess it's the high quality, low-volume thing in a nutshell, but basically nobody wanted the business.
Your thought process would work if you wanted to CNC this frame out of billet aluminium.
Sorry Brant I forgot that all that Hope do is have an un-skilled ludite throw a lump of aluminium into a cheap-as-chips CNC machine and out pops a complete disc brake, headset, wheelset. Each component fully built complete with all carbon, rubber and steel parts fitted ready to go. It must look like Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory at Hope.
cy - just out of interest, when you were trying to find a UK manufacturer how many frames were you asking them to build compared to how many frames you sell per year now?
Jim - i think he means (and rightly so) that you can't really compare Hope with Shimano or SRAM, different production techniques and approaches and business model.
Make sense?
C CNC machine is a CNC machine wherever it is in the world it will cost near enough the same.
R&D costs the same wherever you build the frame (bacause it will be in the UK)
The only think hope have to pay more in yorkshire than in tiawan is labour, and I'm guessing the average employee can make up quite a few brakes/hubs/headsets per hour, even bleeding takes a matter of seconds with the right kit (a vacumn hose). So as aproportion of their costs, its probably minimal.
Welding a frame takes much longer, and much more skill, and therefore costs more.
Are Pace frames made in the UK and are they more expensive than similar Tiawanese made frames?
Pace, Whyte etc are all made itn he far east (as far as I know). They seem to justify the higher costs with more intricate dropouts, tube shapes etc. I think Pace may paint in the uk, though.
cy - Premier MemberJust to stick my oar in at this late stage, I did quite a lot of research into doing things in the UK when I started Cotic, and there are plenty of people out there who could do it, but to be quite honest none of them were in the least bit interested. Anyone who can build bike frame materials to proper quality and tolerances is either doing motorsport or defence contracting. Both of these industries have vast quantities of money sloshing around them, and a habit of "JFDI, I need it tomorrow evening, here's the cash" type behaviour. I guess it's the high quality, low-volume thing in a nutshell, but basically nobody wanted the business.
I too know that there are people who have the capability to build frames in the UK, apart from butting tube, that's not in my sphere. The OP's point was given the changing economic weather maybe it could this make this more attractive to UK companies now. With lean and short run production taking over in the UK I can see the possibilities.
bob jackson replaced a tube and repainted a frame of mine it cost more than the price of a 456 which i later bought . And the 456 rode better . I couldnt care less where it was made as long as it rides nice and is a good price which seemingly isnt an option with uk built frames it one or other or neither lol. For the op im sure its possible but i imagine it would be hard for people to see past the price tag for the sake of a flag on the frame.im more interested in the guy who designed the frame than where it was put together ie id rather ride a brant/cy bike made abroad than a fancy new name new on the block but made in uk. Igmc 🙂
a no name brand will struggle to break into the market, especially if they are the same price or more than existing brands. With the price of an on-one or a cotic etc why would you buy a no name, un tested frame for more? to me on-one, cotic, 18-bikes etc etc are available with ease, have direct support (even on this forum) now you cannot get better than that, how much support do you see on forums from other companies? in a nut shell they have cornered the market! and tbh if it rides well, has a history of being good and reliable, has Uk support all at their low prices who really cares where it was actually built? now a lot on here have an on-one, in fact I would almost say it has a cult following on the 456.... small uk, personal service and support and very cheap to buy. fine its made in Taiwan, but how can you compete with that?
I dont think it is likely that you can shift 2 frames per day, every day? if £200k profit was that easy, others would have done it!
Personally I would not want to go head to head with cotic, on-one, orange or for that matter any other frame makers... trying to get a name for yourself above them would be nigh on impossible.
I think an assumption has been made, are your 1st frames going to be an instant success that ride perfectly and appear in top reviews? many designs will be ditched and it could take years to get a good design, even then it may not get any reviews never mind top test marks from MBUK, Singletrack, MBR etc all it would take is 1 bad review and game over.
Living the dream sounds great and should you try it. good luck, you will need it
Blimey I’ve wasted a long time reading this thread…
The debate is an old one now, and as much as people often like to state their support for “British Products” their personal beliefs are often significantly watered down when it comes to parting with more cash for a frame.
You simply will not produce a comparable product in the UK for the same price as the far east, I actually think the “British Brand – Far eastern manufacture” isn’t a bad business model when you’re trying to sell to a market where Value for money does actually count… Say what you like Dialled, Cotic, On-one, DMR, etc all sell products that meet both the functional AND cost expectations of their customers…
Most of the sprouting on this thread have assumed an “All in house” approach which if you’re even going to attempt production of most products in the UK is a Non starter, to produce a batch of 100 frame you have to consider there is something in the region of 2000(?) individual operations (bending, mitring, welding/brazing, aligning, painting, etc) and whilst having a one stop shop for all of these quite different tasks would be nice those few that do exist and not really geared up for large batches (frame builders), what we do have in this country still are a few businesses that specialise in certain operations Machinists, sheet metal/tubing cutting and bending, fabricators, paint shops/platers. If you were going to try and batch manufacture a frame in the UK you would have to be mental not to try and source the different operations from different suppliers, the major advantages are you don’t have to locate skilled trained up labour, you don’t have to absorb the cost of production errors/reworks (suppliers is liable) you don’t have to layout money up front for tooling/machinery, you don’t have to find production premises (you may have to find storage though for the finished products), operations can be carried out in parallel/smaller batches to shorten lead times and get products to market faster. In short good procurement and delegation is what would give you a fighting chance of hitting a key price point with a UK manufactured bike frame.
The Major downside is of course that each business you deal with will add a margin to the services they provide but unless your start-up is incredibly well funded there is no way you could bring all the work required to manufacture something as complex as a bike frame under one roof from day one…
I’ve never worked in the bike industry but I have worked in manufacturing/engineering and I’ve yet to work on any product where all parts and processes were sourced from one location or business.
Of course all of the above manufacturing services can be found under one roof…. In Taiwan
Of course the first consideration is marketing, which is not just placing the odd advert or chucking up a website; But the primary function of establishing an actual market for the product, you might want a 650B Soft tail with an Eccentric BB but are there more than 3 other people on the planet who want one too? And if there is a demand what price point is it at? And does the “Made in the UK” label hold any sway with your target market? This should be your starting point, and sometimes there’s a gap in the market for a reason…
even then it may not get any reviews never mind top test marks from MBUK, Singletrack, MBR etc all it would take is 1 bad review and game over.
are people really that naive? most reviews aren't worth the paper they are written on.
[i]all it would take is 1 bad review and game over. [/i]
Pastey Ti Howler...
are people really that naive? most reviews aren't worth the paper they are written on.
really? you honestly think that if a new company starting up gets a bad review on the net and in mags , they would survive and get great sales? most people search the net and read mags for reviews, ok an exising brand may survive a bad model or 2 but a new company would sink.. at start up a company has only 1 thing, the quality of its product, they have no reputation to go on, no existing client base, just their new, un tested, unknown product, a review can lauch them into the limelight. And word of mouth of reviews spreads fast in the industry... you know the "what about this new frame", "yea had it or read a review and it was not good, stick to the known brands" Big existing companies live of their track record, Cove, Specialized, Trek etc, they are known and you cannot go wrong, small brands live only on their rep and word of mouth as well as reviews.. who would buy a no name bike especially with any bad reviews. Is a new frame going to instantly get top votes, reviews and word of mouth? I doubt it
that said if your the king of person would who splashes £500-600 on a no name frame with no history, then you obv have more money than sense. I can think of quite a few frame makers who have lauched to fame through reviews, which lead to word of mouth on forums. A review speaks 10,000 words once people start to talk about it!
all companies start out as no name small brands.
look, i apologise because this is going off on another tangent and i'm adding to it.
but
CrAsH...tEsT..RiDeR - most people...read mags for reviews
do they?
and
CrAsH...tEsT..RiDeR - if your the king of person would who splashes £500-600 on a no name frame with no history, then you obv have more money than sense.
if you're the kind of person who splashes out £500-£600 on any frame because a commercial publication said it was good when that same commercial publication runs full page adverts for the manufacturer involved, then you too obviously have more money than sense!
i'll try and be quick here, i used to work with a bloke who many years previous was a test rider for bsa motorcycles, he was testing at mira one day and in the canteen was talking to a tester from motorcycle news who was testing a new bmw flat twin. the bike broke down twice, had several faults, lacked power and handled poorly, basically the tester thought it was a bag of shit. the following wednesday, the report was in motorcycle news... no mention of faults or short comings, handled well, plenty of power, basically the bike was brilliant!
there's more, there's an independant publication called trail bike magazine, the editor/owner, si melber, once published a letter from yamaha explaining how they were unhappy with a report he gave on one of their bikes and threatened to withdraw there advertising with him!
sorry, there's more still, bike magazine once tested a ducati 900ss, in the test they commented that it was a great bike and an improvement over last years model which suffered with several problems (they listed them but i can't remember). i pulled the copy out of my collection with the test to which they refered, nothing, nowt, zilch... basically it was a great bike the year before too!
i suggest you should buy magazines in order to see what is available (so you can look at it and make up your own mind) and look at the well staged and airbrushed photography.
again, apologies for continueing to go off on this tangent.
all companies do start off as no name brands but they dont all try to start off with a uk built highish price frame they start small and cheaper and expand improve as they grow. as on-one did they went from cheap end to now offering high end carbon and ti options (as well as cheap still :-). I think they would have found it more difficult if they had arrived on the scene offering a thousand quid frame right from the off and not ouch else. Imo anyway
Great thread this with lots of interesting points. I've got a thought about the market and its volume which leads me to the conclusion you need a long term vision. Where do yu want the factory or product or company in 10 years? If (big if) there is a market now for a niche uk, quality frame will that market continue or will it sell out or change? If it sells out or changes you have to move with (or even ahead of) the change to survive. Frequent changes mean more costs and I suspect you end up trying to compete with very large and established companies - that's hard. Stay small and low cost/investment from the start, don't sell out the niche, make an okay living perhaps but you don't get rich quick.
I'm intrigued by on-one and some of the things they've done. Take the Ti456. They percieved a market based on affordable bike biult by a top Western welder/biulder - they sell a bundle of Lynskey biult frames. They are about to change to another biulder and my guess is far eastern. I guess they acknowledge some customers will be put off by that but other benefits (a drop in price, or a gucci engraved head tube and tapered stays) will attract others so they sell to a slightly differnt niche for a while and make a little bundle more. 6 months later they offer another small tweak, different drop outs or something and sell some more to another little niche. It seems very smart marketing. Harder to do that if the frames are being biult in the uk? Or easier?
interesting thread , one thing that is not true from my dealings with my Taiwanese agent Rick Tsai is he is incredibly proud of chinese background , I guess it would need an entire thread of its own .
" call someone from Taiwan chinese would really annoy them "
The true original Taiwanese islanders are very much in the minority in Taiwan , I seem to remember they are referred to by the "chinese Taiwanese" as aborigines . The chinese that came over with Chang Kai Shek came with thousands of years of heritage and dynasties , they havent lost the belief they are chinese .
It really is very fascinating , I dont know it all but the Taiwanese people we deal with are very proud of the chinese origin , I think the comment was "chinese history Taiwanese freedom" but i was probably hammered at the time to take it all in watching Brant downing a red chilli chicken concoction .
Anyway - completely off tangent and Ill get me coat .
Great thread, really interesting
Am I correct in thinking that Orange are the only volume cycle manafacturer in the UK. Like Hope the key thing here is that they use a high capital cost method of production.
The business I've wondered about is custom made but in Taiwan. Some one here chats to customers , measures them etc. They agree a design with the customerand the send it electronically to Taiwan.
Some time later the customer gets a frame
Mick, true but i just thing the "don't do it because some one else is already better" attitude a bit silly, that was more my point
Ampthill, you'd loose all the reasoning for going to Taiwan. they like volume, thats where some of the cost is absorbed, they set the jig up once and do 200 frames, if they had to start from scratch every time they'd get a lot more expensive
Having read this thread, I know why they changed the colour of the original Inbred.
Two Wongs don't make a white.