MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
It would be interesting if people had put their salary against the hours they work, I'd want to be earning £40k + per year to work more than a standard week ie max 40hrs
Post of the week by jackthedog!
A lot of the excessive hour people will have a low hourly rate.
I do not measure my success by money - I measure it by the fun I have. some of the most fun cost little money
jackthedog +1
The only people I have a problem with are those that refuse to help and give that little bit extra when work demands. People who clockwatch and are off at 5 every day whether the job is done or not. Yes it may be your contractual right but its a piss poor attitude and your letting doen the team.
I don't mind staying on a bit later so long as I have nothing else planned. However, If I'm going riding or meeting friends then I'll leave. I'm not reorganising my life because a manager has messed up by not allocating enough resources to a project or hasn't allowed for unexpected issues. Is that letting the team down?
What about people who have to leave to pick up their kids, are they letting the team down?
"What about people who have to leave to pick up their kids, are they letting the team down?"
What about people who have a life?
35 hours a week here in uni-land
In at 8 home for 5.30
1hour for lunch
2 days flexi a month
25 days Holiday
Not a bad life really
I don't mind staying on a bit later so long as I have nothing else planned. However, If I'm going riding or meeting friends then I'll leave.
Sorry but in my book that is letting down the team. Sometimes something just happens that needs to be sorted. Not everything can be planned in advance.
Picking the kids up, well not much you can do there but I would expect them to try to make alternative arrangement if possible, or do what they can remotely from home.
The exception to this is if it happens on a regular basis. I have often cancelled biking nights at the last minute. I would be somewhat annoyed if this was a regular occurence however.
So you would let your friends and family down rather than let your work down?
It depends on the relative importance on either event. Obviously if something can wait then it will wait.
Sometimes you cannot achieve something and you let the client know.
However it is important to ensure the client get what they need when they need it. I don't see a regular biking night as being more important than sorting out critical issues when they occur.
[i]I believe in hard work. I believe in doing a good job.[/i]
Good on you. Don't ever work in the public sector then, it'd drive you crazy 😉 There would be no need for staying in the office late if more people just believed in doing what they are supposed to do.
Frodo
However it is important to ensure the client get what they need when they need it. I don't see a regular biking night as being more important than sorting out critical issues when they occur.
Critical issues -its life and death then?
Or is it just about having to work extra hours to make up for poor management and organisation that means pledges cannot be kept without it.
Incidentally, what are everyone's excuses for spending so much time on this thread today? Both the 'whatever it takes' team and the 'my contracted hours and no more' team seem to have a lot of spare time during what I'm assuming are work hours 😉
I've been stuck for weeks waiting for some data to be sent from a client and I'm getting really sick of general research. My time on STW has been steadily increasing for a while now. It's worrying cause it's getting addictive.
@TJ - in IT, 'critical' usually means, drop what you're doing/get out of bed and fix it pronto.
So it's not life or death, per se - but you have a responsibility towards your employers that their business operates smoothly.
And yes, I have got out of bed at 3am to drive into the office to fix something. And yes, I have cancelled going out with friends at the last minute to fix something too.
I am paid for my responsibilities, not the work which I churn out.
Poor management doesn't come into it.
Is that written into the contracts for IT work or is it just something that 'everyone expects'? If it's something everyone just expects then it is a management failure since it should be written into the contract and there should be on call rotas. Surely you can't be on call 24/7/365?
xiphon - thats fine - I have no issue at all with that. Sometimes stuff needs to be dealt with like that. More so in my trade
Howevert that is not what Frodo appeared to be doing / saying.
I think the problem many people get into is viewing hours at work as being some measure of work/results achieved. Long hours as a badge of honour kind of thing. Have to agree with pretty much everything jackthedog has said. I made certain choices about how much work I want to do. A phone call and email I made recently had huge value to a cleint, but took me 2 minutes - did I work hard that day? Yes, but just not for very long. Hence I see my kids a lot, ride my bike when I choose, travel a bit, albeit having compromised earnings to a certain extent.
xiphon - Thats fair enough, and yes part of the job in IT, but I really hope that you get rewarded very well for doing that, other wise why bother?
work extra hours to make up for poor management and organisation
Ahhh that old chestnut, of course that's always the problem!!
Some industries just need a different type of dedication regarding working hours. If you don't like it then don't work in it. If money and financial security is not your priority then fine, everyone is different.
BruceWee - Member
Is that written into the contracts for IT work or is it just something that 'everyone expects'?
It's written in most contracts that I've had (IT) that you may be expected to work a reasonable amount extra as required. As I stated before, I work my hours but am happy enough to do the extra when really required, not otherwise.
I think the problem many people get into is viewing hours at work as being some measure of work/results achieved
+1 I tell my guys off if they work longer than they should unless there's a good reason as stated above. I want quality, not quantity and I believe treating people fairly. If they're finding that they regularly struggle to get things done in the normal working day then we look at why and work out solutions - in IT, that's often restricting how much development work we can deliver (since it's typically not essential or at least, not so time critical)
LHS
Some industries just need a different type of dedication regarding working hours.
Why? Why are you immune from the ill effects of working long hours. why can your industry not be organised effectively so that the employees can actually work effectively and a reasonable number of hours.
Of course long days to hit a deadline can be needed although it will often be poor management that leaves you short of time but without compensatory rest you will become less efficient - ie you are wasting those extra hours
Howevert that is not what Frodo appeared to be doing / saying.
TJ - You misunderstand. What I'm saying is that within reason you do what is required to get the job done, sometimes that means staying late. I wouldn't ask anyone to stay unless it was important and if they said I'm sorry I have commitments tonight ...thats fine.
I would however expect people to make reasonable efforts to make the effort 'when it is required'.
Fairy snuff Frodo. sometimes is OK , all the time is not
I don't think people should have to justify why they can't (or don't want to) stay on outside their contracted hours though. I think all you can do is ask people and if they say no they say no, end of conversation.
although it will often be poor management that leaves you short of time
Proof please rather than tired them and us dogma 😉
Not Dogma - its opinion. 🙂
Unless its something unforeseen and unusual whatever the activity is that requires the extra time should have been accounted for in the manpower planning. If it was predictable the the boss should have planned for it.
That I agree with - which is what I said above about the people I manage...
I did read your post and applauded - thats the way to get the best out of your staff IMO
I am lucky enough to work with colleagues from all over the world my experience is that all my colleagues work the same sort of hours regardless of their nationality. Current team includes French, German, Singaporean, Malaysian & American individuals.
Typical week is 50 to 60 hours - probably too many hours but as a result I get the opportunity to work all over the world and do something I find really interesting. As LHS says you can make it work.
At the risk of offending people who work there - I worked at BAE on a strict 37.5 hour week 13 years ago and there is no way I want to go back to the culture I experienced there.
Glad to say I don't work for a company with a them / us dogma that must be particularly dull for both sides !
Unless its something unforeseen
A lot of business is unforeseen.
Example:
Company A sends an RFQ to supplier B stating they need the answer by tomorrow, does supplier B:
a) Turn down the work because its too short notice or
b) Pull their finger out and meet the deadline?
BruceWee - Member
Incidentally, what are everyone's excuses for spending so much time on this thread today? Both the 'whatever it takes' team and the 'my contracted hours and no more' team seem to have a lot of spare time during what I'm assuming are work hoursI've been stuck for weeks waiting for some data to be sent from a client and I'm getting really sick of general research. My time on STW has been steadily increasing for a while now. It's worrying cause it's getting addictive.
I've also been spending too much time on here recently. My work generally includes a mix of travel and working from home that I prefer to working on an office. However I have been working from home too much recently and have 'cabin fever', also stalled projects and motivation to do research is waining. If it gets busy I'll put the hours in but at the moment I probably owe the company a few.
I reckon people should be barred from working 60-80 hours weeks while people are struggling to find jobs(especially those that do OT for free). There really is no reason why there shouldn't be full employment(workshy excluded of course).
First graduate job, 43 hour week, 1 hour lunch included. Leave bang on 5pm. Manage my own projects & time, meet clients, have full managerial support for any idea I come up with. If I have to leave after 5pm, it's because I bit off more than I could chew. Very glad to be out of University, there are good employers out there!
@[b]FunkyDunc[/b]
It's in my contract to work 'extra hours' when necessary.
Do I get 'rewarded' for getting out of bed at 3am?
Yes, in a way.
I have a job to go back to the next day, as opposed to having to explain to The Board why their business has stopped working, due to 'IT issues', and potentially disciplinary action (extreme case, of course) due to not fulfilling contractual responsibilities. We have SLA's with our clients.
I have a (relatively) good salary, which reflects the level of responsibility of the job. Somebody paid half of my salary (fresh graduate perhaps) could do 90% of my job. I'll admit that. The remaining 10% comes to light when the sh!t hits the fan, and I can react/resolve it quickly - keeping the business' IT running smoothly.
My employers are very flexible for time off. etc etc.
So yes, I am rewarded for working late/early/odd weekend/obscure hours..
My riding friends/drinking buddies know this about my job - and they know if I cancel on them last minute, it's out of my control.
When I left my last employer, one of the partners in the same team went* at the same time.
He landed himself as the sole lawyer in one of the country's largest privately owned businesses. On his first day his new roommate said "Don't work late." "Why's that?" says ex-colleague, thinking it's a concern for his wellbeing. "They lock the office at 6pm, and you can't get out." 😀
Apart from a bit of digging above, I'm also into the better work/life balance I enjoy now. I'd certainly take a lot of convincing (and a whole lot of cash) to return to the abusive and exploitative culture of law firms.
*He didn't have much choice. No client money coming in = you going out of the door
Sorry been working myself in to an early grave / retirement... What did I miss?
Currently work about 35. When i have been approached to work extra, its always been on my terms, particulary now with children. I've worked in industries where you were expected to work "extra", but i didnt partake. There was alot of pressure to do the extra hours, but it just looked like bullying to me.
If you get ample reward for doing, such as tiger6791 eludes too, then you might be able to justify it. But for many (salaried anyway)earning average wage, their still going to get average wage whether they do 35 hours or 60 hours aweek.
Contracted to work 39 and therefore work 39, simples
Get no thanks or reward or even recognition for working more, so don't see the point.
Contracted 37.5, with up to 10 more paid. In exceptional times might do another 6 to 8 on saturday. Now I have a young daughter it's nice to see her in the morning and evening. That would be impossible if I worked more than I do now.
Culture at work is pretty relaxed, on the shop floor it is all paid ot and you choose what you do. I run a team of 10 and have had to ask for a bit more ot now and again. As suggested its about give and take from both sides. I don't know how comfortable I'd be at asking if it was unpaid, but it's all relative as my guys don't earn big salaries.
I can understand those working 60+ hours for the chance to retire early. A lot of my friends work in london and have done the same. People make their choices and should be happy with them without having to dig at others. My choice is to work less and earn less, but I'm pleased to see my mates who've really grafted be on exceptional salaries.
Contracted for 37 do 37 unless it's to help out a mate at work or something serious has come on top (theres overtime paid but I'm not a money chaser). Did the 60hrs+ standard week, working all weekends, 30 hrs shifts (public sector as well) for no extra cash and in the long run got nothing for it, job & skills been devalued so I'll prioritise my homelife now.
Just finished, still smiling though 😀
Monday 13
Tuesday 12
I didn't do it I wouldn't have the job (salaried no O/T)
Whilst I applaud those who can restrict the hours worked for a majority that is not an option.
TJ I can only believe you are naive! or Citizen Smith
Will you get compensatory rest / TOIL? is this a regular thing? You are quite possibly working illegally and if you do this regularly you are certainly allowing your employer to abuse you at great risk to your mental and physical health.
I am neither naive or citizen smith - IMO people who work like that are naive. You are allowing your employer to get away with abuse ( unless its an occasional thing to hit a deadline or something else out of the ordinary.)
Have you bothered to work out your real hourly rate? Do you ever see your family / friends?
Whilst I applaud those who can restrict the hours worked for a majority that is not an option.
Majority? definitely not a majority, and those who do work extra tend to get overtime.
It is not until you move into offices and this weird presentism culture that you see people working extra hours for no money. And even in most offices i would say most people don't do huge amounts of extra, an hour here or there but that is about it.
just another thought, do you really think when the $hit hits the fan and your employer needs to cut staff that working 80-90 hours will actually make the blindest bit of difference to their choices? If i company decides to shut a department they shut a department.
Commitment works both ways, why should i sell my soul when i know my employer doesn't give a $hit.
TJ, I think the only thing we kind of agree on is whether you are compensated for the additional work. I wouldn't put those many hours in unless essentially there was a financial incentive involved i.e.
O/T
Bonus
TOIL
Career progression
Stock / Profit sharing
The career progression one you need to monitor closely. I have had friends who have been working 60hr weeks for 2 years with the constant expectation of a promotion / raise which never comes. Always set yourself boundaries of what you are willing to except as a minimum.
28. Occasionally I get kept late, maybe 5 minutes or 20 sometimes. You don't get paid until you have done an hour, then you are paid for it. So if you are there for half an hour you don't get paid. On the other hand, if you are a bit late it's ok (as long as you don't do it all the time). Hour for lunch. No set breaks but you can make a drink any time. The lawyers work much longer hours - they get more money but I would be interested to work out their hourly rates - poor things.
6x13hr shifts. Rubbish eh? Take it or leave it at my work though. Im also experienced and fully qualified to work offshore but thats worse.
Karinofnine - Member28. Occasionally I get kept late, maybe 5 minutes or 20 sometimes. You don't get paid until you have done an hour, then you are paid for it. So if you are there for half an hour you don't get paid.
Aargh... We had a similiar rule with a minimum half hour, which naturally a certain sort of boss instantly interprets as "make everyone work 25 minutes overtime every day". But for some reason, they're not as happy if you come in 25 minutes late and say "Hey, it's not a full half hour so it doesn't count".
40 hours, why work more?
Totally echo what LHS says on keeping an eye on the reward for the hours but in some jobs this is not just salary as TJ seems to think. I may see less of my children than if I worked 10 hours a week less but I think the opportunities they get as a benefit of my work out weigh that time.
I am also counting myself massively lucky that I do something where I enjoy the job enough that sometimes I want to stay / see something through because of the personal satisfaction I get from seeing a job well done on time. Definitely in the minority on that one from what I can tell.
this week ive done 84 - 7 x 12 hour shifts
get my weekends back at my leisure and get paid a good day rate on top of a good basic for my days away so for me it works out nice as im saving for a house
once i have kids i wont be doing that shite !
3 x 11 plus 8 on a saturday. Not a bad 41 hour week with 3 days off 😀 AND I like my job!
I may see less of my children than if I worked 10 hours a week less but I think the opportunities they get as a benefit of my work out weigh that time.
I do wonder what your kids think though? would they rather spend more time with you or have more junk?
45 hours minimum. Rarely more than 64 hours.
About 55 hours. We are contracted for 40 but the more hours typically the more bonus but there is a cut off in terms of work life balance. The thing that p1sses me off the is the culture of having to stay till the boss leaves. He always wait till after 7pm to drive home out of central London (in the Porsche 911 we paid for) and everyone just sits there until that time even if they are not busy. I started leaving earlier and and get beady looks from people. Sod it is what I say.
Recently started working in auditing. It says in the contract that it's seasonal work and it averages out at 40 hours per week over the year ;-). However once the season starts it will be around 60-65 hours. Then during summer we work shorter days and finish at 3pm on Fridays. Already had to stay longer and work till late or the whole weekend as well because if there is a deadline then the work must be done by that time end of story. However we can get time back/get paid for OT and get TOIL for weekends worked. Money is good as well so I can't complain really. However most of the time delays in supplying documents from the client leads to staying longer and there is not much we can do about it TBH.
He seems to be talking about opportunities rather than objects though mrmo. Plenty of things cost money and are of great benefit to a child. Better education, more extra curricular activities, holidays where you experience other cultures. Totally fair point imo.
Contract says 38, but it turns into 50 pretty quickly, and often more. If we're on a fieldtrip the hours rocket.
RichPenny - MemberHe seems to be talking about opportunities rather than objects though mrmo. Plenty of things cost money and are of great benefit to a child.
Greater benefit than having a dad around?
Greater benefit than having a dad around?
Not mutually exclusive.
You can easily work an 11-12 hour day and still be around for your kids.
Its called proper time management, and not wasting your life watching crap on TV too.
I've long since decided that working extra hours (usually for no reward) generally makes **** all difference to the outcome of work.
I've also realised that, to a certain degree, time is greater than money.. so when I had the opportunity I reduced my hours to a 33.5 hour working week (Mon-Thurs).
Ok, so there are a number of factors that can make people work longer hours from reading all the above:
1. People who enjoy their job so put more hours in. (fair enough in my book)
2. People who get paid more to work the extra hours whether in their salary or in bonuses/overtime.
3. People who work the extra hours, because it whats done in their industry/culture of the organisation.
I would be intrigued to see peoples pay for all 3 categories. I earn slightly more than the national average but dont work an hour over 37.5 hours per week. No its not my dream job, but it gives me the balance I want between income/life. If an employer wanted me to routinely work 40+ hours per week and not pay me extra for it I would leave.
TJ you really dont work in the real world. Many of your colleagues in your broader company work many many more hours than they are contracted for.
37.5 per week for me.
However , we have weekend shutdown work which requires me to be here for the next 6 weeks, paid overtime, - 9 hours per day at the weekend,12 hours per day through the week.
I don't do it for the love of the company - I'm purely mercenary.
I have helped them out when they've been stuck though.
Clearly if he was never there TJ, then no. But I can see that if you're earning well then trading 5 to 10 hours for something worthwhile is ok. For example, it might cost £60 to take my daughter to the british museum. An incredible experience well traded for a few hours work.
To me this is about the price of everything and the value of nothing.
clearly a few hours a week extra that you get paid for is no issue - however 70 hr weeks are proven to be damaging to your mental and physical health.
I think there is a huge element of people fooling themselves here and a lot of folk are going to regret spending the best years of their lives working and neglecting their families and the rest of their lives.
How you can be as good a dad working 12 hr days as you could working 7 hr days is beyond my comprehension.
How you can be as good a dad working 12 hr days as you could working 7 hr days is beyond my comprehension.
Obviously! 🙄
It's called [u]time management[/u]
When the kids were growing up, they were at school for 9hrs of the day. They also went to bed early evening. And if you knew anything about kids you would also know that they don't want to "hang" with their dad for the rest of their waking hours. Saying all that I would definitly say I spent the same time with my kids growing up as most adults do.
They are however very grateful when they were able to be educated at the best school in the area, and were taken on holidays abroad for 4 weeks of the year. Depends what motivates you TJ. Our motivations are obviously wildly different.
EDIT: TJ I just read your first post - you work 18hrs a week? Do you have any children?
Currently working a zero hour week....but this will change to an 84hr week (x2) when my rotation comes around.
We certainly don't bust ourselves...A wise spark once said to me
Efficiency = Redundancy and Chaos means Cash 🙂
Generally 50+ per week at work but commuting time puts 3+ hours on that each day (admittedly I don't work much on the train - great place to catch up on sleep).
That's an interesting point isn't it, about what money effectively gives the kids in place of their parents being there.
I was lucky enough to go to private school from 13-18 instead of the comp I'd have probably been in otherwise up to 16 which I was in before the private school and I really didn't enjoy - bored out of my brain basically. So on that basis, yes, money (in an indirect way in my case since it didn't actually involve my Dad working particularly long hours) definitely made me happier. I'm less certain that I'd have felt that way if it had involved my Dad not being around much. My Grandad ran the family business and worked long hours. My Dad always says that he'd have far preferred to have not gone on the amazing holidays and had all the nice stuff and to have actually known his Dad while he was a kid...
So, the other stuff like holidays, etc, I'm far less certain of the benefit to kids. And yes, obviously kids don't want to spend all their time with Mum and Dad but that's different to kids not wanting their parents to be around.
So your parents work hard to give you a better life, you work hard to give your children a better life, your children work hard to give their children a better life. When do the benefits actually materialise?
People have fallen into the classic trap, have no life of their own, and just believe the propaganda to keep them working (wasting) their lives away.
A point that just occurred to me - we tend to have friends with a similar outlook from a similar sphere of work - so the working / living patterns that we have tend to be similar to our friends thus appears to be the norm.
None of my friends that I see much of are involved in the long hours culture so it is not the norm to me. I guess if you work and live in that culture it becomes the norm
None of my friends that I see much of are involved in the long hours culture so it is not the norm to me. I guess if you work and live in that culture it becomes the norm
Do you have children TJ?
I have a wide variety of friends from stay at home mums and dads, doctors, teachers and traders. There are definitly differences.
So your parents work hard to give you a better life, you work hard to give your children a better life, your children work hard to give their children a better life. When do the benefits actually materialise?
At every step along the route.
Depends what motivates you TJ. Our motivations are obviously wildly different.
Clearly. I have no desire for material goods and don't care about money so long as I have enough for the basics.
EDIT: TJ I just read your first post - you work 18hrs a week? Do you have any children?
Averaged over years No kids. Lots of time to play instead and I do all most all the housework and stuff so Mrs TJ has plenty of time to play as well. We took a drop of over £20 000 pa to do this and are much happier with far more time for stuff altho we don't always make the best use of time. I have done up a couple of houses for us to live in - that sort of thing
I get a lot of pleasure out of simple things - a walk along the river on a spring morning and the like. costs nowt.
I work 37.5 hrs a week, even thats too much i reckon.
84 hrs a week, shove that right up yer chuff.
I don't always agree with what TJ says but this
I get a lot of pleasure out of simple things - a walk along the river on a spring morning and the like. costs nowt.
hits the nail ont head.
TandemJeremy - Member
A point that just occurred to me - we tend to have friends with a similar outlook from a similar sphere of work - so the working / living patterns that we have tend to be similar to our friends thus appears to be the norm
You see, I don't have that at all. I have friends who are classic slackers and others who work all the hours under the sun and earn lots. Some lefties, some righties, may centrists. Thing is they're all nice people which is more how I try to identify people to be friends with rather than just sharing the same views/outlooks/work. I think that your friends all seem to be so homogenous says a lot about you as it goes...
Not that I disagree with your views on working hours, obviously.
I am still intrigued for all the other long hour workers with kids as to exactly what benefits there really are for your kids other than the better schools one (and only secondary IME).
This is getting on to a more emotive discussion, and could be a whole different thread.
I dont see why parents think they need to earn their childrens love/respect through monetary gifts etc. Mrs FD works long hours and already feels guilty to Jnr FD so buys him stuff to compensate.
Its a cultural thing that in her job she doesnt feel that she could stay on maternity leave for a year, or work shorter hours because she wouldnt get promoted etc etc. That is probably all true, but just sadly reflects how low the family life is reflected in society that work comes before family and therefore partly why society is going down the swanny.
Yeah, I know there's a real risk of that. I'm not trying to point the finger at those who work long hours ostensibly for their kids - particularly as IME they're often driven by having had poor childhoods themselves and wanting better for their kids.
I just don't really 'get' the view, that's what I'm trying to understand. I guess part of that's down to my parents, my Dad in particular who managed to be pretty successful but in his view would have been much more so if he'd been willing to sacrifice (in his view) family life by working more hours, travelling more, relocating us, etc. He always said he didn't think it was a sacrifice worth making.
TJ, you work an 18hour week and have no kids.
Seriously? How do you think you have the right to comment about working longer hours for the good/detriment of your family?
This is definitly a subject you are not qualified to comment on.
LHS - leave it out, you don't have to have kids to be qualified to comment on this.
No benefits for kids if the parents are at work all day every day. All they really wish for un-till their teens is time spent with their parents. As adults we get too hooked up on this materialistic world and put to much emphasis on careers and ownership of things or keeping up with the jones'
All these 60-80hr weeks = early grave (and you don't even have time to enjoy your short lives!!)