[Closed] How long to be a credible Cat 4 or am I just crap (road content)

MTB racing is essentially a TT.

I concur. Ok, you need the rad xc skillz, and weight takes the place of drag, but the effort is more TT than crit.

*waves* at DGOAB, thought you'd given up on STW but you seem to keep coming back to the racing threads

Yes I'm better the longer races go on, I seem to "last" better than some others

MTB racing is essentially a TT.

I don't think you could be more wrong.....XC racing is not comparable to a TT
only that they will both hurt.

MTB racing is essentially a TT.

Not at all.

1) in a TT you are aiming to be at your threshold power as consistently as possible, it's a sustained effort. In an XC race you are over and under all the time - the downhills are technical enough that you can't pedal at threshold, and the ups are steep enough that you have to go over.

2) TTs you just sit and spin, whereas in XC you have to handle the bike well, downhilling and doing singletrack as fast as you can.

3) TTs are usually as flat as possible, whereas XC is usually hilly. This means that the bug guys are better at TTing and the small ones at XC

would suggest you and crits will never get on!

This is quite possible. I did one 24 hr solo and gave up because whilst I did ok and I felt like doing more, I realised that neither my body nor my lifestyle were suitable for doing really well. My body wants to do short, hard and fast races, I feel so much better training for that than for long slogs. Other people I know are the opposite.

Arse 🙂

I was just reading this http://www.rideabout.co/how-to-prepare-train-for-xc-racing/#Racing_for_fun

This would suggest you and crits will never get on! I'm barely getting going by the time a crit is finished even if I extend my warm up. Road racing is the way to go

I know we talked about not including club runs, but maybe this describes in a nutshell why I can ride 10 miles out of a valley to the meet, do well at the front, sprint for the cafe at the end after 100k and end well, then ride 10 miles home.

I always thought a road race was an extended crit and I be doomed to failure...

Well that's a load of rubbish, have you seen how 'big' Wiggins is?

Plus XC is essentially a sustained effort, pretty similar to a TT. But quite different from a road race or crit.

Well that's a load of rubbish, have you seen how 'big' Wiggins is?

By road standards he is. How big are the other good TTers?

Plus XC is essentially a sustained effort, pretty similar to a TT

No, it's over/under. Get a power meter and do both, compare graphs.

Club runs bare little relationship to racing, so are not a good way to judge form. Some really strong club run guys make terrible (road) racers.

Xc Racing has high oscillation in terms of power output with high developed aerobic and anaerobic systems needed. Research suggests anaerobic performance can be a good indicator of XC performance: XC requires lots of short bursts ranging from 5-30seconds. Just look at this weekend’s World cup, do they really look like they are doing a TT in terms of effort?

In a TT you are looking for a sustained power output without much deviation in terms of power. Completely dissimilar to and XC race

FWFW I just look at my Strava analysis for Crit vs XC race and it mirrors welburns description.

So er, perhaps I should save £15 this weekend?

I always thought a road race was an extended crit and I be doomed to failure

So er, perhaps I should save £15 this weekend?

Play to your strengths!

If you're a long haul trucker, then do that.

Ok thanks, I might look into that.

In the mean time, If I start tomorrow which is coincidentally my next "ride" day, the TrainerRoad Cross Country MTB plan fits [i]exactly [/i]to end on the weekend of the Bonty.

In addition, looking at the plan, substituting the mid week session for the Beastway series I'm riding Wednesday nights, and the weekend session for the club ride or the monthly Mus Sweat and Gears races actually fits the profile of the turbo sessions/plan.

Wowee, after three pages I found my calling, saved £15 and got my next training block all in one 😀

Plus XC is essentially a sustained effort, pretty similar to a TT
No, it's over/under. Get a power meter and do both, compare graphs.

Time trials can be be very over/under, especially sorter ones. You have rises and dips, changes in wind strength and direction, road surfaces, etc. You can go a lot faster as you learn when to push a bit harder and when to back off a little.

Time trials can be be very over/under

Depends how hilly. Our local 10 is undulating but nothing like off-road steep. The local very experienced guys all said to keep constant power rather than go over/under. Because going over fatigues you much more quickly. It's not possible in an XC race because the hills are so steep you'd be at a crawl.

Having said that, from a physics point of view it uses less energy to keep to your average speed, so if you trained for anaerobic power you'd do better if you went over/under. But since most TTs aren't hilly you wouldn't train like that, TTing is seen as being about threshold power.

In the mean time, If I start tomorrow which is coincidentally my next "ride" day, the TrainerRoad Cross Country MTB plan fits exactly to end on the weekend of the Bonty.

In addition, looking at the plan, substituting the mid week session for the Beastway series I'm riding Wednesday nights, and the weekend session for the club ride or the monthly Mus Sweat and Gears races actually fits the profile of the turbo sessions/plan.

I dont use trainer road so dont know what the plan entails but if it is based for XC racing (something relatively short and sharp) is it going to be suitable training for a 24 hour endurance race?

Actually I shall start "Cross County Marathon" Omar which is:

[url= https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/473/18347875411_7729472316_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/473/18347875411_7729472316_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/tXkE8v ]TR[/url]

Move Tuesday and Thursday back to Monday & Wednesday. So I'd be using the Turbo Monday by substituting Wednesday for an actual XC race, and the weekend ride for a club road ride, but that is what I'd do on the turbo if life gets in the way of those. Fits nicely, and goes on for 8 weeks.

That looks grim.

If I were training for XC marathon I'd aim to do one or two 3hr rides in the evenings, on road. Late at night after the kids are down. Then some hill reps on Saturday and however long I could manage on Sunday.

I'm such an idiot. That ^^ is the XC short one. This is the one I'll start tomorrow (XC Marathon).

[url= https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8847/17724317784_647b0d04f9_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8847/17724317784_647b0d04f9_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/t1eLaW ]TR2[/url]

I'm rather ambivalent about that ^. Can't see the intensity but even if it's quite extreme where's the volume? 5-6hrs and <400 TSS doesn't seem very 'marathon' focussed.

I'm only training for 12hr races and I do lack top end punch but <600 and 12hrs a week with a 5hr ride feels light for me.

ps this puts some pressure on me lapping quicker than you at 24:12 (Torchbearer for me) 😯

It's trainer road - so it's all indoor and as such can only be so long.

As I said, personally I'd get out once for a long evening ride rather than do a load of 60 min sessions.

I did say, one of the mid week's is replaced by a 90 min XC race, and the weekend replaced with a 110k/4hr road ride.

Bear with me, I trave around the country for work and work variable hours so its not always easy to stick to a routine (AND two young kids). I average about 450-550 TSS usually.

Adsh, the Tuesday intervals shown vary from 108-160% FTP, the highest ones on Thursdays 130% and the indispersed sprint intervals 200% or as high as you can max out. Bear in mind that cadence will vary, so some of those will be spinning out, others <70rpm to promote muscular endurance growth.

There is no coasting on a Turbo...

Bear with me, I trave around the country for work and work variable hours so its not always easy to stick to a routine (AND two young kids)

I know what you mean. I only get good training in when I'm away somewhere with accessible riding for a decent period of time - I can ride all evening then 🙂

Plus XC is essentially a sustained effort, pretty similar to a TT

Nowhere near. I've got power files from both flat and hilly TTs and there is absolutely no comparison to an XC or CX race. Even a flat circuit such as Sherwood is far more variable.

Oh I wish I could have, been ill and snotty all week so didn't race yesterday

Also Lee, checked the results and congrats on the podium!

Bad times, sorry to hear that. Cheers, felt good on only base miles, and one of the few times that being tall and able to shoulder a bike effectively has helped in an MTB race!

My bad - I barely go over FTP even! With travel and kids thats good going. Plus tss seems overly volume oriented to me.

Turbo work its dedicated. Persoanlly id rather git myself than spend time on one. I love riding i dont like training for the simple gain of more power. Maybe thats why i struggle sometimes in races.

Xc races do feel different to time trails. When i do a tt it is constant effort but when ridingnoff road my power ouput is all over the place.

What surprises me ina crit race my output for an 80kg rider to finish in bunch (i keep on mucking up and doing sustained efforts on the front because i think no one is working hard enough) is only 230w average and peak power is 750w or so. More like an xc race really. Im pretty crap at sprinting i should just go of the front and break and let it hurt.

My training is far more unstructured. It involves riding a fair bit 12hrs a week or so inc races. I ride hilly routes to build up leg strength and spend a bit of time every week on a single speed mtb. All that time and people who spend less still out me but would i enjoy it doing turbo trainkng no i would git myself to end the pain. Currently i see races and i am doing two a week as my intense interval training. The rest of the rides and lower intensity endurance or recovery rides. So entering a race and getting fropped is not a waste. Ride the full course as hard as you can. In time you will improve.

It also take a good while to build strength in your legs.

if your doing bonty 24, surely you need to be doing some longer rides? whats your longest ride to date this year?

Long rides for 24hr are needed. 3 to 4hrs as often as you can. You need endurance. Hill reps are fine but endurance rides are essential.

I live in London, have a 60hr a week job which keeps me away from home at least 2/5ths of the time and two kids I'd like to spend time with. I don't need the long frequent rides as previously evidenced, I can't ride to work and it's not easy to ride out from home and dedicate a whole day to riding. That said my longest mtb ride this year was the BORS 100k in just sub 6hrs, road 140k in 3.5hrs. I am capable of doing those on a bowl of Granola without issues. Every Sunday is a 3-4 med-hard road ride over rolling terrain, I get about 100miles a week in.

Bm0p700f - interesting numbers - last Saturday's was 266w average 1101w peak on a Flat dry course. The two I finished in the bunch in January were 240w average for me.

I don't have a lot of input... but it's a very interesting thread, so keep it up please guys.

I'm planning on getting back into Gorricks this year later on, so it's all very interesting to me, especially as I've recently borrowed a Turbo for the times when I can't get out on the trails.

road 140k in 3.5hrs

40kph average? clearly in a group, but if your able to do that, you shouldn't get dropped in a 3/4 crit surely?

60 hours work, young family, limited training time, you need to pick something that fits your schedule better rather than diluting all your work doing bits of this bits of that,

either that or just enjoy what your doing and not get hung up on the position

Lol, no my maths/typing is wrong - 32kph 3hr 50min.

60 hours work, young family, limited training time, you need to pick something that fits your schedule better rather than diluting all your work doing bits of this bits of that,

That's apparent, yes and therefore...

I'd already decided - I'm going to stick with XC as my main focus. I may try the odd TT, or Cat 4 crit when thier's nothing on for MTB should the opportunity arise but for "Training" or "fun" purposes. I didn't mention this mefore but I feel 100 times more comfortable at an XC race than a Crit. My decision literally took a weight off my shoulders last night.

For example, the January Hillingdon winter series is a great blowout and chance to test one's fitness & skills after the winter period, close to me and relatively cheap.

But I'm going to stop hunting / bleating about road points.

60 hours work, young family, limited training time, you need to pick something that fits your schedule better rather than diluting all your work doing bits of this bits of that,

Given those constraints I'd not be picking long endurance events to train for as those typically need a lot of training time spent in the saddle. But if it works for you and you enjoy it then fair enough. TBH, given your constraints I'd be pretty bloody pleased with what I'd achieved!

interesting numbers

FWIW, last (and only) crit I've done was 245W average and 260W NP, comfortable and well below threshold, but I don't think that really tells you much about how easy or hard it was. Finished in the lead bunch but spent a lot of time on the fringes and in the wind. Second go at a crit tonight and I've a new plan 🙂

Just for a laugh, here is a crit...

[img] [/img]

It would probably be spikier if I had any top end!

And here's a reasonably flat time trial...

[img] [/img]

Anyone have an XC race with power to compare...?

But I'm going to stop hunting / bleating about road points.

Thread closed 😉

Anyone have an XC race with power to compare...?

Yep, this is me at Mud Sweat and Gears in March on a flat course.

[url= https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/323/18350501536_5f53570da0_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/323/18350501536_5f53570da0_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/tXz7Mw ]msg[/url]

Yes there really was a huge starting sprint. Also worth bearing in mind my max HR is 178 so you can see how hard I'm working.

Sounds like you've made the right decision in easing off with the road racing, although for pure XCO they're the most similar event power wise (depending on the race and circuit) short of Cx.

The great thing about cross country is the variability of it all. As in, the range of efforts is incredibly varied - from 15 seconds flat out at the start/finish, to 10 minutes above threshold (Hopton 2013 anyone?).
With this in mind, you should be training for a pretty balanced power profile, with a slight bias towards your strengths (>1 hour from the sounds of it). To illustrate, in an average week of training, I'll be doing 40x6 second sprints, 4x20 minute efforts as part of a four hour ride, and everything in between. The exception being anything over 5 minutes and under 15 (these length efforts have been shown to induce fatigue without stressing the body enough to cause significant adaptations). And an interval on the mountain bike is very different to that on the road - 15 minutes on the road will come out at about 350w normalised, 400 max and 200 min; whereas 15 minutes on the mountain bike will come out more like 300w average, but ranging from 800 to 0w during the effort.
So mix up your training - different length intervals in different disciplines.

BUT, there's a 24hr long spanner in the works. Although it might be on the same bike, a 24 solo is to a XC race as an ultramarathon is to the 1500m. I.e. you might be able to do resonably well in both events at an amateur level, but to do really well you'll have you specialise.
It's not like by focusing on one you'll have to drop the other - you'll be able to compete in either race with the fitness gained by training for the other.

So if I were you I'd make a decision now as to which event you really want to target , and get out training - there's still time to get some good 12hr weekends in before Bonty!!

(^ Not the words of a sport scientist, just someone who wanted to help 🙂
)

That's strava estimated power, ignore it

Hard effort there Kryton. Be good to have real power though as I suspect your average was quite a bit higher than 128W!

Here's a lap of pines red, done as fast as I could, Stages X9

[URL= http://i829.photobucket.com/albums/zz211/dansipods/A530F80B-592D-422C-A522-10B5E5915A32_zpsiegyz5nh.pn g" target="_blank">http://i829.photobucket.com/albums/zz211/dansipods/A530F80B-592D-422C-A522-10B5E5915A32_zpsiegyz5nh.pn g"/> [/IMG][/URL]

Yep, this is me at Mud Sweat and Gears in March on a flat course.
msg

Yes there really was a huge starting sprint. Also worth bearing in mind my max HR is 178 so you can see how hard I'm working.

That's an endurance racer's HR profile over an XC race if I ever saw one! You might be working quiet close to your max HR, but you're never far off the average with minimal drop off towards the end.

My HR for that race was all over the place in comparison
[img] https://flic.kr/p/tHpcBN [/img]

My HR for that race was all over the place in comparison

Can't see the image which is a shame as that sounds interesting. I saw the winning elite rider's HR trace from one of the Southern XC races the other week. I was a little surprised at how flat it was with very little variability.

Can't see the image which is a shame as that sounds interesting. I saw the winning elite rider's HR trace from one of the Southern XC races the other week. I was quite surprised at how flat it was with very little variability.

[url= https://flic.kr/p/tHL6C2 ]And HR from another race, this time a hilly one [/url]

Looks like you had the race in the bag pretty early on and backed off a bit? 🙂

Probably an age thing too, my HR doesn't really track power that closely as I've gotten older, I suspect my HR would look pretty flat near max (much like Krytons) if I did an XC race despite the variability of power and effort.

It's stuff like this that makes me really miss the data I'd gain from a PM on the XC bike! Looking at my last race is quite interesting to just see where I punctured... I should but I never actually wear an HR strap on the road bike with a PM.

I've got an M9000 stages coming so should be able to provide some more data soon

MTB race (FNSS at Mallory):

[url= https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8760/18193389970_8520abeeec_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8760/18193389970_8520abeeec_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/tHFSZq ]Mallory FNSS[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/130716198@N02/ ]Mike Moore[/url], on Flickr

Crit race (again at Mallory):

[url= https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/455/17758463594_bb4947bb57_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/455/17758463594_bb4947bb57_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/t4fLwN ]Mallory 3-4 Crit[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/130716198@N02/ ]Mike Moore[/url], on Flickr