[Closed] How hard can you hammer a soul?

I've got a simple, and ride dh tracks often. Its no problem for it. I don't do the massive jumps or drops, but I do anything smaller than say, three, three and a half metres, so reasonably big. My simple has air pikes set to 120mm, xm819s and a short stem, and it feels great.

So go for it, you'll have a blast!

three and a half metres?!

thats about 12ft. Are you certain you've got your units right?

Thats big-bike territory isn't it?

They can take ALOT of stick.

Thy're tougher than you think. Both my Soda and my (now a Simple) Soul have had a proper caning over the years with absolutely no problems. I've done a few 8' drops on mine (to a nice transition) and barely noticed the landing

I think it's moatly down to how smooth/precise a rider you are. Doing big jumps and drops on a Soul? No problem. Casing big jumps on a Soul? Won't do it any good. The limiting factor for DH is probably geometry - they're a bit too steep to go *really* quick on.

Get a BFE if your doing bigger stuff you can get away with anything on them a guy did the mega avalanche on one and my little brother found it pretty brutal on his giant glory..

The problem with the 'it's fine if you're smooth' line is that there's always going to come a time when you're not.

I snapped my mk1 Soul (chainstay) after crashing off a drop on a DH run at Wharncliffe. My fault, got it welded up.

I then snapped it again in an XC race, trying to get round some numpty on a descent I flat landed a small drop whilst going flat out. The problem was that I was knackered and so landed like a sack of spuds. Chainstay again.

I weigh about 12 stone with riding gear. The bike was never at fault and they're superb frames (I was proper pissed to break it and would get another) but I'd be wary about using one for much silly stuff now, especially at £470...

I'll admit I usually get proper big stuff dialled on the big bike before I try it on the Soda or Simple - gives me some idea of speed, brutality of stunt etc.

I think the way to look at it is to carry on doing what you want to do, apply a wee bit of care and thought, and then if it all goes irreparably wrong, get a bFe.

Cheers for the comments, good to know the Soul can handle more than I throw at it at the moment.

But starting to think I might need another bike soon!!!....

My mates headtube pulled off his and they wouldn't warranty it, so he just got his brother to weld it back together and he's still riding it now. Other than that they look nice.

No, units were right. Thats for a jump, not a drop though. Drops with trannies about two, two and half metres. I weigh about 70kg with all my riding stuff, so I'm not a big guy. Likewise, I ride BMX so think I'm pretty smooth.

just get a BFe and stop fannying about with them there girlie bikes

Interesting - I ride BMX too but I'm heavier at about 85kgs wiht all riding gumph.

Willyboy - how did he pull off his headtube?

With tweasers?

[img] [/img]

Mine broke and I did get a warranty replacement, so went for a BFe. I never was a 'hardcore' rider and seldom left the ground and suspect it was a weld that went.

He did a bit of jumping but nothing more than cross country stuff (say foot and a half max). Other than that i'm not sure exactly - he owned it just over a year before it happened.

Till it breaks...then you know you NEED a harder hitting bike.

Souls are damn tough, but everything has it's limits. It's tough one to call as I know 10st riders who break things as soon as they sit on them, whereas as recent evidence seems to suggest that I struggle to break stuff regardless of where I ride it despite weighing probs 90kg with kit on. If you're thinking it's maybe a bit much for your frame, be sensible. We'll have BFe's back in stock in a few weeks 😉

Sorry to get prickly about this willyboy, but your mate's frame is the only thing we have [b]ever[/b] not warrantied, because it cracked after nearly two years, and it had clearly been thrashed beyond the last inch of it's life. It's the only pure fatigue failure we've seen on a demonstrably properly welded frame, and it wasn't warrantied because it wasn't a material or workmanship defect, not at that point in it's life. We did offer him a crash replacement deal, but he didn't take it. I'm really pleased to hear he's welded it up and is still riding it, though. The joy of steel!

Househusband's up there was warrantied because it went after a few months which put it firmly in the 'workmanship' category as welds should last longer than that. I think we'd had probably less than 10 like that the whole time we've been doing the Soul, which puts that at something less than 1% of the population. I think that's pretty good. It can be quite a tricky area, but we try and offer some kind of deal regardless of the situation.

Brown, we've tidied up some details on the chainstays these days - you'd struggle to do one now!!

I think my mate (Ed) was just expecting it to last a little longer than two years that was all. I know he rode it a lot (i used to live with him in Bristol) I wouldn't have said he thrashed it though, just used it regularly.
Sorry if i came across in an annoying manner, i didn't mean to cause any offence.

if what I heard at the weekend is correct they're not getting on too well with some new European tests that are coming in? I don't know much about it though. I do like the feel of the Cotics though.

If Cotic have worked out how to maintain the frame weight they have now, and pass the CEN tests, Cy would be worth an awful lot to anyone in the industry.

Everyone is having "issues" with the new European tests on steel frames.

Oh dear.
And here's me, just about to build up my mates 4yr old Soul with a view to buying it off him.
And I'm 16st.

Its not going to get a ragging though.
I don't like leaving the ground.
It'll be a second chassis that I'll swap with the Enduro during the Winter / when it takes my fancy.
Looking forward to it all the same.

willy - sorry, it's popped up a few times and I wanted to make the point that it's the only one we've stuck to our guns on. And yes, I am having a bad day so probably shouldn't be on here 😉

CEN is a pain in the arse, but I'm working hard on it. The solutions I'm working on won't be the cheapest way to build a regs compliant frame, but if I'm right they'll be the only way to make a light one.

takisawa - you'll be fine.

Cy - thanks for your input. Didn't think you had bad days but just think, it'll be tomorrow soon!!! 😉

It's cool. I've not been on for a bit, so it's kinda nice to be back.

Didn't think you had bad days

If you only knew.....

As I know nothing about these regs what is it with them that is hard to get through? Are the expecting everything to be bomb proof with a 20st lardy sat on it?

It's the new European Law that all bikes manufactured from 2010 model year have to meet. The main issue for steel and ti frame makers is an absolutely MAAAAAHOOOOOOOOOOSIVE frontal fatigue load case that kills pretty much anything out there very swiftly indeed. A lot of cunningness is being brought to bear on the tubeset to keep weights sensible on Cotic frames.

Would be interested to know what changes are required to meet these new regs too. ****ing europeans screw everything up.

Cy, not trying to be an arse here, but failure from fatigue after two years, is that not possibly caused by defects in the material?

Ah I see, so you've got to make them out of almost solid bars rather than tubes? Will have to get clever with the design or we'll have to stock pile some frames before next year!

Good Luck with it, it'll be interesting to see what the different manufactures come up with!

I'm sure you'll manage it Cy. I would just like to say that I love the ride of my Simple, it is just wonderful. If I ever decide to get a full sus, I will get a Hemlock. If I break my Simple, I will buy another in a flash. I might be getting a roadrat in a few months. Cy and Cotic have been a pleasure to deal with in emails, forums, and in the riding.
Thankyou Cy.

The main issue for steel and ti frame makers is an absolutely MAAAAAHOOOOOOOOOOSIVE frontal fatigue load case that kills pretty much anything out there very swiftly indeed.

Are there different standards for other materials (Al alloy, carbon) or is it just that there's less weight penalty for throwing more material at the problem?

Ah I see, so you've got to make them out of almost solid bars rather than tubes?

Something like that. Just don't ask Michael from Orange. He'll keep you talking as a diversion to stop you doing any design work 🙂

rs - I'm sure plenty of people will if my solutions work 😉

fatigue-wise, there were some obvious things in the failure which lead me to my conclusions, which is why I took the hard line. It's the only time I have. That said, generally defects manifest themselves very quickly (months rather than years). The fact that the re-welded frame is still in use over 2 years later also supports my position that the frame was initially sound.

Are there different standards for other materials (Al alloy, carbon) or is it just that there's less weight penalty for throwing more material at the problem?

It's much easier to fix in alloy or carbon, and the heat treatment in alloy fixes things easily. Light springy long forked steel bikes? Hmm... We'll see.

Same standard regardless of material, it's just that aluminium and carbon are much more flexible in their manufacture and much less dense too, so you chuck a few wraps of carbon or a few mm of alu to meet the requirements. Not too hard or too heavy.

Fair enough, just looking at the CEN website as I'd never heard of it.

About us

The European Committee for Standardization (CEN) is a business facilitator in Europe, removing trade barriers for European industry and consumers. Its mission is to foster the European economy in global trading, the welfare of European citizens and the environment. Through its services it provides a platform for the development of European Standards and other technical specifications.

Mission to foster the european economy? More like make everybodies life a pain in the ass. Wonder who decided the standards that applied before weren't enough?

Wonder who decided the standards that applied before weren't enough?

To be fair, the standards that applied before were shit.

So we're all riding on bikes that are going to fall apart? I thought all these cotic's, on-one's and dialled's were tough as old boots. Its seems like most will have to be beefed up to meet the new standards.

Just to add to my posting the pic of me Soul broken at the headtube; I'd have one again in an instant. It scared me a bit at the time but I do now realise that it was a very rare failure and a weakness, and Cy's customer service at the time was great; he was very ill at the time and had actually closed Cotic to give himself time to recover. I do actually yearn for it's sprightliness sometimes!

I thought all these cotic's, on-one's and dialled's were tough as old boots.

They are.

Its seems like most will have to be beefed up to meet the new standards.

ALL of them will, and it's blinking annoying.

Cy...slightly off thread but if I want to build a Soul or Bfe single speed would I need a chain tensioner (never a good outcome) or could I get a horizontal option (or a EBB)?

Regards

Andy

Or a Simple?

Does this mean, if I want a Cotic 'like they make em now' , I will need to buy before these new regsor I end up with a new fangled heavy different thing?

How do you frame builders analyse this kind of thing ?
Do you use Ansys etc ?

Lionheart - Member

Does this mean, if I want a Cotic 'like they make em now' , I will need to buy before these new regsor I end up with a new fangled heavy different thing?

That was my take on it - if you want a nice lighter, possibly sprightlier steel frame, now is the time to purchase....

Oooh, so 'pre-regs' Souls and Sodas are going to be collectors' items, eh? Interesting <strokes beard>... 😉

Has anyone got any video of someone dropping 3.5 metres on a 120mm forked hardtail? sounds like a bit of a fishy story to me.

Youtube search:

Impressive, but not sure it's a hardtail:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZLrNlnHJTA

Impressive indeed

i rode the big drop(called the 16fter) on pitch hill years ago on my hummer with 130mm forks.

as long as the trannny is steep its all good

Answering queries:

aw - The Simple is identical to the Soul, but with track ends and no cable guides. There is no SS option on the BFe.

Lionheart - Yes, that is the case.

takisawa2 - I use FEA, I know other people who use beam calcs and simply test lot's of prototypes. One of my main beef's about the standard is that it makes FE really hard to use because the load cases are all 'drop anvil on this bit of frame' lab test type stuff which makes working out the physics of the static load case to design to quite difficult. At the end of the day, the new law states you have to have credible evidence of compliance, and that is almost certainly a lab test.

mattoutandabout - The new Soul should be just as sprightly and wonderful as the old, if not more so. Once I got over the shock of the regs, I've decided to turn this around and use it as an opportunity to stretch what's possible with steel. I will not compromise what the Soul is for these regs, but as mentioned above, achieving that has meant a whole new level of cunningness.