[Closed] Hope brakes - a theory

I've had brand new ones that leak 🙁

Hope did stuff all to fix them, just sent them back to the shop moaning I'd fitted them badly.

My theory would be Hope aim for excellent quality, but miss the mark too often, and then rest on a mixed reputation of being helpful to fix.

I don't want to get all 1980's, but Right First Time might be a better mantra for them.

I'd never touch their brakes again.

my m4's were shite too, never had such flimsy brake levers, some thing would snap or bend every ime i crashed.

I ran my hope mon mini for years without issue but now i brake shimano xtr brake and its night and day. Not going back to hope brakes a even shimano deoreperform better than my hopes ever did. That the problem hope have. In fact thag the problems ever other brake manufacturer has.

My m4's always needed messing around with. In the end they needed a complete rebuild.

I bought a set of XT's for less than the cost of the parts & tools + what I flogged the m4's on eBay for.

Wouldn't go back.

I have some Shimano that have had relatively little use and are exellent, but being on my XC race bike they don't get much of a workout. Similar power to my wife's Hopes in general riding. Neither bike has been down anything big, steep and fast with me on it 🙂

The ones I've used have always been perfectly good, just imo not worth the money. It's more the fanboys that I object to than the brakes 😀

(equally, I wish Shimano would make parts available to owners. And I'm fully aware that I'm a Formula fanboi too so behold my hypocrisy 😉 But I've got 3 sets of The Ones, I wouldn't replace them with any Hopes or Formulas if you gave them to me for free. I don't know exactly how much you'd have to bribe me, please feel free to help me find out)

The Hope CNC thing impresses and annoys me in equal measure- annoys, because it's just flat out inferior to forging but people are so impressed by it. But impresses, because they've turned their inability to make forged parts into a selling point. It's the same trick as making a strength of their unreliability.

Big problem is people compare new shimano to old Hope.

I hated the Tech X2, the Tech3 lever is a totally new beast. I couldnt go near Shimano now.

Theyre more expensive by a good amount, but for me thwyre worth it.

Ive yet to hear or read anyone say the Tech3 E4 or V4 isnt better than the Shimanos.

EDIT: I come across as a fanboy, but I just like what works and keeps working. I cant be bothered with stuff that breaks with me.

Never had a single problem with Hope brakes and the M4's were at least as powerful as modern Shimano. Saying that I'm finding it hard to look past XT for my current build at the price you can get them for.

I wouldnt buy new XT, Deore are just as good, but a little heavier the SLX is about 10g heavier than XT so if I cared about weight thats where my money would go.

Always prefered the feel of Deore and SLX to the XTs.

Hmmm..... why have I started discussing Shimano now?

Back to the thread.... Hope feel weird when youve not used them before and take a ride to get into.

Big problem is people compare new shimano to old Hope.

Indeed. Try some Tech 3 E4 or Race Evo M4 vs Shimano - tons of feel and the power really ramps up as you squeeze harder. For the money I can't fault the Deores on one of my bikes but they're not in the same league.

Never had any issues with Hope brakes. I try not to skimp on anything, so that means Hope caliper adapters, Hope sintered pads, Hope rotors etc..

I've got 9 year old mini monos on one of my bikes, and they're as perfect as when new.

On another bike I have a 2 year old V2 brakeset. Apart from re-bleeding them after installation (to shorten the hoses), and replace pads, they've been fit and forget.

I hardly ever get any brake squealing. This is partly down to good alignment, but they've been quieter than other makes I've tried.

And I love the open reservoir design. It might seem old fashioned, but in my experience of much brake bleeding, I'd rather the open method to faffing with syringes to suck/push the air out.

I've had various other brakesets (Shimano XT/XTR, Hayes) and they've been much noisier, mushier feel, and the Hayes leaked oil out the pistons.

That's just my view. I have lots of riding mates who share my opinion too. Quite a few of them are mechanics/engineers - maybe that explains our choice ?

I liked the adjustability of my hopes and the modulation but they were not as powerful as my SLX or Zee. They are very expensive for a brake that is really not any better than the significantly cheaper competition. I did prefer the hope lever over the slx/zee though. tests constantly show they don't have the same power as other brakes too

Yeah new deores work well

But my m4 race evos are indeed leagues apart , however, they should be considering the price difference!

Ive also got some 1999 minis that still work fine and some 2007 mono m4s that are great

If you like a fettle hope brakes are awesome you can replace every part and they will last you for years

Some people seem to have issues, maybe QC isn't great, but any problems ive had ive been able to sort out with at bit of patience and a how to video on the hope page

But impresses, because they've turned their inability to make forged parts into a selling point. It's the same trick as making a strength of their unreliability.

Interesting point but I think you are being a little harsh here.

all things break and Hope fix them. I dont see that as a bad thing

interestingly only one Hope product has ever broken and I somehow got a brand new QR seat post where the lever would not move

Everything else was fair wear and tear.

I know nothing of the forged v CNC issue - LINK out of interest

I did prefer the hope lever over the slx/zee though. tests constantly show they don't have the same power as other brakes too

Are u sure ???
http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/article/how-we-test-hydraulic-disc-brakes-24345/

I've never used anything but Hopes since the 1st Mini's came out, never had the need to, never had a problem. Running original M4's on the old HT & 2010 X2's on the FS. My mate has original Mini's on his HT with X2's on his FS & my son has either X2's or V's on his FS (can't remember which)
I can't comment on other stuff as I/we have no experience of them.
PS, I tell a lie, my lad had some Avid something or anothers which were shite so he put the Hopes on, no problems since.

I'm not a fan of their brakes

Had some m4's for a while, I found them wooden and not much bite to them

I've had Hayes, Avid carbons and currently on Formula and they are all more powerful, better bite, and they feel less home made

Indeed. Shimano feel like theyre made in a factory by the millions. Plastic covered in shiny plastic.

Big problem is people compare new shimano to old Hope.

My old M4's were rubbish, gave up the ghost in the Alps. Replaced with first gen Saints, the difference was massive. Old against old I'd say. Move forward 4 years and the 'old' Saints were still better than the three sets of mates new Hopes I was in the Alps with. Two sets of old Saints got to the bottom of a long rocky decent working fine, the Hopes all had levers against the bars.

I'll be sticking with Shimano.

Junkyard - lazarus

all things break and Hope fix them

Not really, that's why I'm harsh about them. They sold the old Pro 2 with a maxle option for years knowing it wasn't fit for purpose (I always roll out the same story but when I broke mine, they sent me 2 replacement parts "for next time it breaks") Every cable they've ever put in a bike light has lacked simple strain relief, things like this- they'll fix it when it breaks but they don't fix underlying faults that they're perfectly aware of- they just keep selling them and fixing them. I've not got much time for that.

Here's a wee Sheldon link- but worth having a google around if you're interested. http://sheldonbrown.com/dp-forging.html. I are not metallurgist but basically, forging is stronger, cnc is easier and cheaper. It doesn't make a bad product of course, especially in a brake where the internals are what's most important, but it's likely the reason that Hope brakes tend to be bulkier and heavier than much of the competition.

[quote=kimbers
http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/article/how-we-test-hydraulic-disc-brakes-24345/

Hah, good link kimbers, I was just there earlier today. Interesting test stats, and useful. I am building up a new bike, and researching what brakes to put on it. Current bike has Hope X2 Race Evo, which I am happy with, but looking does no harm, right 🙂

I think a lot / most / all of the subjective opinion spouted about "brake x is much more powerful than brake y" is useless. Comparing an old set of brake x against a new set of brake y, probably on different days, likely on different bikes and terrain, likely with some expectation bias thrown in, is impossibly skewed. Gimme the scientific stats please, otherwise we get into the realms of hifi snake oil subjectivity dressed up as being golden eared (golden fingered?).

From the tests, seems that Formula brakes are in fact 'the best' in terms of maximum power and also power-to-weight.

[code][b]Brake model / Power (Nm) / [i]Weight (g)[/i] / Power to Weight Ratio[/b]

[b]Formula R1 Racing [/b] 104 [i]334[/i] 3.21
[b]Formula The One[/b] 121 [i]393[/i] 3.25
[b]Magura MT6 [/b] 103 [i]337[/i] 3.27
[b]Formula R1 [/b] 107 [i]355[/i] 3.32
[b]Formula RO [/b] 124 [i]418[/i] 3.37
[b]Hope X2 Race Evo [/b] 110 [i]377[/i] 3.43
[b]Shimano XTR Race M985 [/b] 110 [i]388[/i] 3.53
[b]Shimano XTR Trail M988[/b] 112 [i]407[/i] 3.63
[b]Formula RX [/b] 107 [i]398[/i] 3.72
[b]Magura MT8 [/b] 90 [i]339 [/i]3.77
[b]Avid XX WC[/b] 90 [i]356[/i] 3.96
[b]Avid Elixir 7 [/b] 99 [i]395[/i] 3.99
[b]Avid Elixir 9 [/b] 99 [i]397[/i] 4.01
[b]Magura MT2 [/b] 103 [i]428[/i] 4.16
[b]Avid Code R[/b] 103 [i]429[/i] 4.17
[b]Hope Race Evo M4[/b] 115 [i]496[/i] 4.31
[b]Shimano XT M785 [/b] 107 [i]466[/i] 4.36
[b]Hope Tech Evo V2[/b] 120 [i]524[/i] 4.37
[b]Shimano SLX M666[/b] 111 [i]485[/i] 4.37
[b]Avid Elixir 3[/b] 100 [i]442[/i] 4.42
[b]Quad QHD-7.1 Nano Light [/b] 92 [i]422[/i] 4.59
[b]TRP Dash Carbon[/b] 85 [i]393[/i] 4.62
[b]Avid Elixir 1 100[/b] [i]471[/i] 4.71
[b]Shimano Deore M596[/b] 104 [i]490[/i] 4.71
[b]Hope Tech Evo X2[/b] 97 [i]463[/i] 4.77
[b]Quad QHD-7 Nano [/b] 97 [i]463[/i] 4.77
[b]TRP Dash[/b] 85 [i]407[/i] 4.79
[b]Quad Rapide[/b] 97 [i]475[/i] 4.90
[b]Shimano Saint[/b] 105 [i]529[/i] 5.04
[b]Ashima PCB[/b] 64 [i]328[/i] 5.13
[b]Gusset Chute[/b] 89 [i]469[/i] 5.27
[b]Hayes Prime Pro[/b] 90 [i]501[/i] 5.57
[b]Tektro Auriga Pro[/b] 77 [i]491[/i] 6.38[/code]

Hope X2 Race Evo do well in terms of power and power-to-weight, whereas the Hope Tech Evo X2 do somewhat poorly. Quite interesting, maybe the Tech Evo X2 have let them down, if people have been comparing them against the like of Shimano XT.

Reliability is really important to me. I had a horrible run with Shimanos a few years ago, cumulating in both front and back brakes failing within 5 minutes of each other on a night ride in winter (-5). Hopes OTOH have been flawless, I did a huge amount of fairly demanding riding last year on them, and they never missed a beat.

[quote=Northwind]it's likely the reason that Hope brakes tend to be bulkier and heavier than much of the competition.

Not true though:

[b]Brake : Power : Weight[/b]

Formula R1 : 107 : 355
Hope X2 Race Evo : 110 : 377
Shimano XTR Race M985 : 110 : 388

[quote=Junkyard]all things break and Hope fix them

[quote=Northwind]Not really, that's why I'm harsh about them.

I feel the same about Shimano. Still using fluid that seems to stop working in the cold, and if a seal wears out, you need to buy a new brake.

[quote=mcnik ] Still using fluid that seems to stop working in the cold, How cold is it where [i]you[/i] ride?

[quote=scotroutes]How cold is it where you ride?

[quote=mcnik] I had a horrible run with Shimanos a few years ago, cumulating in both front and back brakes failing within 5 minutes of each other on a night ride in winter (-5).

You know, these threads are utterly pointless. It's the same old guff that gets typed every time. Mine included. Shouldn't even have bothered posting up originally. Just buy what you want, and if rubbish, buy something else.

Not really, that's why I'm harsh about them

I never had the older pro 2 or their lights so cannot comment on them but i have only suffered from wear and tear and i can then get replacement bits.

Cheers for sheldon link will read it tomorrow

[quote=coogan]You know, these threads are utterly pointless. It's the same old guff that gets typed every time. Mine included. Shouldn't even have bothered posting up originally. Just buy what you want, and if rubbish, buy something else.

Woah! It's only some people discussing MTB brakes, and the merits of qualitative / quantitative comparison. No need for an existential crisis 😀

@mcnik:

[img] [/img]

I don't know where you got that weight from but Hope say "from 198g" for the Race Evo X2 which I assume is for a front.

Junkyard - lazarus

Not sure I get your point but all things for a bike will break and wear out in use/over time.

You said "all things break and Hope fix them"- point I'm making is that they don't fix the flaws that cause them to break more than competitors. Selling a dubious product and fixing it when it breaks isn't good customer service, it's a save of bad customer service.

Fixing things when they break is good customer service, it's just customer service you don't want to have to rely on, like warranties.

Well I'm taking my first plunge into the world of Hope brakes and about to hit the button on a set of E4's. Not had an issue with any of my previous brakes- even Avids, but I need a new set as my current ones are going onto another bike, so I thought what the hell. But a few mates who have had or got Hopes all rave about their performance and reliability. Maybe they've just been lucky - though the web is a wonderful place to give people the wrong impression about things. It's basic marketing understanding that a customer who has a bad experience of a product or service will tell shit loads of people, whereas those who are pleased are unlikely to tell anyone.

On the CNC vs forging thing I agree, but the other brake manufacturers don't forge their calipers either, I'd be surprised if they do (not enough volume to make it viable), they cast them and CNC vs casting is a different thing, at least you're cnc'ing from a forged billet.

Comments above re forging vs CNC... Hope brakes are forged, technically speaking, as they are CNC machined from a forging:

From 4mins in. Surely any brake caliper requires machining after forging?!

Those power statistics kind of back up my argument. Out of the box the power of Hope is basically the same as every other brake, as you expect because they are all essentially the same. And yet some people complain bitterly about lack of power. Why would this be?

I think it's pad contamination.

Yes - but why are we comparing old Hope to new Shimano still?

Two sets of old Saints got to the bottom of a long rocky decent working fine, the Hopes all had levers against the bars

That sounds like air in the system - which is user error, not design. The boiling point of Dot is much higher than mineral.

Hope Tech Evo X2>> 97
Hope X2 Race Evo>> 110

This doesn't make sense, I have a set of Race X2's which feel like they have no power compared to my old Race M4's. My new E3 M4's feel twice as powerful again. I've often wondered how much more powerful the the Tech lever is over the Race, and the M4 over the X2, but that list doesn't compute.

[quote=Northwind]@mcnik:

I don't know where you got that weight from but Hope say "from 198g" for the Race Evo X2 which I assume is for a front.

It from that [url= http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/article/how-we-test-hydraulic-disc-brakes-24345/ ]BikeRadar link[/url].

"Weights are calculated including 180/183mm rotors, post mount kit and rotor bolts".

[quote=househusband]Comments above re forging vs CNC... Hope brakes are forged, technically speaking, as they are CNC machined from a forging:

Love it! It's funny how stuff gets repeated as 'fact', when in actuality, it is totally untrue!

[quote=Northwind]The Hope CNC thing impresses and annoys me in equal measure- annoys, because it's just flat out inferior to forging but people are so impressed by it. But impresses, because they've turned their inability to make forged parts into a selling point.

As pointed out above, this is an untrue statement.

[quote=Northwind]It's the same trick as making a strength of their unreliability.

Sorry to pick on you Northwind, but 1) it is not a trick, 2) the parts you are complaining about are not brakes, and 3) there is no statistical proof being presented of any 'unreliability' in Hope brakes. You have thrown statements out there in this thread that have already been shown to be false. I understand your personal experience hasn't been great with a couple of (non-brake) Hope parts, but that doesn't mean you should continually write off everything they make, especially when other peoples anecdotal evidence contradicts yours.

My move away from hope after 8 years of use was because the excellent (for the time) Minis were far, far better in terms of feel and performance with smaller rotors than the Mono Minis I replaced them with. Not because of leaks or contamination - both were reliable, but because the Monos just didn't offer the power. On a side note my Minis are still going strong 13 years after purchase on a friend bike. One bleed after shortening hoses for them and still on original seals.

[quote=molgrips]Those power statistics kind of back up my argument. Out of the box the power of Hope is basically the same as every other brake, as you expect because they are all essentially the same. And yet some people complain bitterly about lack of power. Why would this be?

I think it's pad contamination.

It could be contamination, poor setup (not centered), wrong pad choice, poor rotors, bad bleeding / air / water in line... probably other things. There are a lot of things that can throw peoples experiences off IMHO.

[quote=happybiker]Hope Tech Evo X2>> 97
Hope X2 Race Evo>> 110

This doesn't make sense, I have a set of Race X2's which feel like they have no power compared to my old Race M4's. My new E3 M4's feel twice as powerful again. I've often wondered how much more powerful the the Tech lever is over the Race, and the M4 over the X2, but that list doesn't compute.

Hope X2 Race Evo>> 110
Hope Race Evo M4 >> 115

So the M4's have some more power, but not 'twice as much', just a little bit more. But a little bit more power + new vs old + poss better setup + expectation bias = OMG THESE ARE AWESUM 🙂

househusband » Comments above re forging vs CNC... Hope brakes are forged, technically speaking, as they are CNC machined from a forging:

Love it! It's funny how stuff gets repeated as 'fact', when in actuality, it is totally untrue!

Go on - educate and enlighten me rather than just saying it is 'totally untrue'..???!!!

(Not being argumentative, just curious.)

^^^ I am not sure what the point is as they seem to be both disagreeing with your view its forged and disagreeing with NW view that its CNC'ed . I would also appreciate a clarification

point I'm making is that they don't fix the flaws that cause them to break more than competitors. Selling a dubious product and fixing it when it breaks isn't good customer service, it's a save of bad customer service.

I cannot comment as I have not had the things you had that broke and the things I do have have not broken.
Clearly YMMV.

[quote=househusband]Comments above re forging vs CNC... Hope brakes are forged, technically speaking, as they are CNC machined from a forging:

[quote=mcnik]Love it! It's funny how stuff gets repeated as 'fact', when in actuality, it is totally untrue!

[quote=househusband]Go on - educate and enlighten me rather than just saying it is 'totally untrue'..???!!!

Crossed wires here mate, there was no sarcasm in my post, I am agreeing with you. I loved that the video you posted showed the forged Hope M4 brake caliper in the guys hand, and he clearly explained it was a forging.

My point was we heard in this thread that "Hope make a positive out of the fact their parts are not forged", they you showed a video where it is clearly explained and shown that they ARE made from forgings 🙂

It is too easy for stuff to get repeated on internet forums as 'facts', with absolutely nothing to back them up. I want the facts... measurements, tests, explanation from the manufactures, all IMVHO worth a lot more than stuff like "my mates friends sisters husband pulled his lever to the bars, therefore XYZ is rubbish".

Gotcha - nae worries!

Hope X2 Race Evo>> 110
Hope Race Evo M4 >> 115

So the M4's have some more power, but not 'twice as much', just a little bit more. But a little bit more power + new vs old + poss better setup + expectation bias = OMG THESE ARE AWESUM

Ok not twice as much but they were fitted to the same bike at the same time, M4 front and X2 rear, I have a (XC) bike with X2 race front and rear and I'm seriously looking at moving to Shimano on this bike as there is just no bite.

My "big" bike has E3 M4 front and rear and I love them for their modulation and power when you need it, however after a weekend in the Alps my forearms were in tatters from braking. Admittedly I was (and always am) running 180/160mm discs which isn't ideal in proper mountains!

My point was that you would expect more power from the Tech lever vs the Race

All these brakes (except Shimano) are basically the same inside. So the lever comes to the bars on one brand, it's an issue with the setup or maintenance.

The question is, is one brand more prone to maintenance issues than another?

The Hope CNC thing impresses and annoys me in equal measure- annoys, because it's just flat out inferior to forging but people are so impressed by it. But impresses, because they've turned their inability to make forged parts into a selling point. It's the same trick as making a strength of their unreliability.

Ditto, ish.

I've never had hopes till recently, to be fair they are working quite nicely, no issues yet.

My experience of the as a mechanic, hit or miss, no doubt related to the dimensional tolerances achieved machining in those volumes. The dot fluid eating the seals is a good shout too.

They must also be onto the kind of volumes by now where forging/casting tooling is going to be more economical than machining. This is with reference to the outside/cosmetic stuff. IE why not get the forgings closer to the final shape and don't do the cosmetic, unnecessary, expensive, pointless machining.

molgrips - Member
The question is, is one brand more prone to maintenance issues than another?

Well, you proposed your theory in your first post.
All we need now is evidence.
🙂

How would we be able to prove it?