I have more sets of shimano brakes sat useless in drawers with either jammed levers or calipers which leak fluid all over the pads than I do do fully functioning hopes which are being used on various bikes with no issues. Think I'll stick with the hopes 🙂.
MTB brakes are crap all round.
wait what?
of all the moving parts on both my bikes, the (hope) brakes cause the least amount of worry. Change pads when worn, and they go years without maintainence. I've had the rear brake serviced once after 3.5 years of use.
for comparison, in the last 6 months I've changed suspension bearings, hub bearings, adjusted the gears twice, serviced the fork, trued the rear wheel... to say nothing about droppers!
I previously had shimano, fine when new, got that "wooden" feeling at some point on an alps trip, nveer recovered. And I'd be lucky to get a year out of a set of rotors.
And before that, Avids, which would fail if you turned the bike upside down, and would randomply pull to the bar mid descent.
Bite/grab != Power. Sadly lots of people fail to get this.
The problem is that a brake that has good power at high speed cannot have good low-speed modulation, and vice-versa. The first disk brakes I had were Hayes HFXs, which were the mainstay of DH racing 20 years ago. I ran them with an 8" front rotor and metallic pads, they were ferociously powerful but had terrible modulation. The first time I rode with them, I fell off in a tight corner because my little dab on the brakes brought me to a screeching stop.
After that, Shimano came out with Deore (2-pot) and XT (4-pot) hydros. They had much better modulation than the Hayes and basically put Hayes out of business.
People who think that current brakes are crap really should try riding some bikes from the 90s. I've used Hayes, Avid, and Shimano hydros. They all work well when they're set up and bleed properly. They can all be a bit tricky to bleed sometimes, especially rear brakes, and sticky pistons are an occasional problem for all of them. Once they are set up properly, they just work fine.
With car and truck brakes you run out of tyre adhesion long before your run out of brake power. That is not the case with mountain bike brakes.
it is for me. easy wheel locking or OTB even on tarmac with sticky tyres
Quite likely I will be tempted to get some for my E4s if it looks like they offer a genuine improvement and I have cash burning a hole. This is despite the fact that my E4s are perfectly fine, just not as good as some of my other brakes
The other issue is I have V4's on 2 bikes, so would need 2 sets, couldn't be doing with mis matched brakes! 😀
I previously had shimano, fine when new, got that “wooden” feeling at some point on an alps trip, nveer recovered.
Glazed pads would be my first guess.
Avids, which would fail if you turned the bike upside down, and would randomply pull to the bar mid descent.
This happens when you have air in the master cylinder reservoir. They have been underfilled and/or not bled properly. This can happen to any hydro brake that has air in the master cylinder reservoir.
With car and truck brakes you run out of tyre adhesion long before your run out of brake power. That is not the case with mountain bike brakes.
I've had a couple of trips OTB on dry roads when cars turned in front of me. The limiting factor for rear brakes is grip, for fronts it's either tyre grip off-road or going OTB on-road.
it is for me. easy wheel locking or OTB even on tarmac with sticky tyres
You can put the pads in backwards in truck and still have enough brake power to stop a truck. (I know this because the company i worked for had to change pad design to stop fitters acidentally putting them in backwards)
Compared to off road surfaces tarmac is a much more predictable braking surface. Which is another major design constraint of mtb brake design. It is no good claiming your brakes are crap if you don't have the correct tires for surface you are trying to brake on.
One of the key points which you metioned earlier is setting up the brake properly. The running clearance between the pad and the disc makes a very significant difference to how well the brake works. Automotive calipers can float which helps this. MTB calipers don't which means it is even more important to get it right.
I’ve had a couple of trips OTB on dry roads when cars turned in front of me. The limiting factor for rear brakes is grip, for fronts it’s either tyre grip off-road or going OTB on-road.
Front brakes do way more work, its why older cars used to have discs on the front and drums rear. the limting factor of any brake is always tire grip.
I rode with him this weekend and his his brakes were frankly terrifying.
There's definitely an issue with them, in that case. Do you really think we'd all be riding around with brakes that don't work? We aren't all that stupid.
I have Hope and Shimano on my two most used MTBs. The Shimano feel sharper, but that's not important - what's important is when you are going fast down something steep and need to stop as quickly as possible. This depends on heat buildup at the pad, and the two sets of brakes I have both perform the same in this respect.
I think that Hopes can suffer from micro-leaks of fluid maybe, as they are somehow more susceptible to contamination. When I clean my bike I put a squirt of bike cleaner in the caliper and hose it out, this keeps everything running sharp. But before I did this there were issues with contamination, although I am talking 20 years ago now. But Shimano aren't immune to this, I had to do it on them before yesterday's ride.
Oh and my Hopes are Mono Minis from 2007. Recently changed the caliper seal because I could, because the parts were available. That makes them pretty cheap.
it is for me. easy wheel locking or OTB even on tarmac with sticky tyres
This is also misleading since it's not the most important usage cycle for hard braking.
I think that if you don't clean your brakes they become contaminated, they get worse, and you don't necessarily notice.
Front brakes do way more work, its why older cars used to have discs on the front and drums rear. the limting factor of any brake is always tire grip.
Also not grabbing the brake leading to instant lock up. As more weight transfer happens (especially on tarmac) the bigger the tyre contact patch and the more grip you have. That's one of the first things you learn when riding a motorbike, the same applies to cycles on the road and off road. The rear brake is just a passenger under proper heavy braking.
the limting factor of any brake is always tire grip.
On an MTB, it's fairly easy to OTB in an emergency stop on road or on steep descents in the dry. In that case, stability is the limiting factor because you have more front tyre grip than you can use. This doesn't happen in a car because their center of mass is lower and they have a much longer wheelbase. On an MTB in wet or loose conditions, tyre grip will give way before you OTB. In that case, the limiting factor is tyre grip.
The first guy in my riding group to get disk brakes bought a DH bike with Hayes HFXs, but had them set up U.S. style. Another guy was keen to try them and tried to do a big rear wheel skid in the carpark, not realizing the brakes were reversed. He just grabbed a handful of front brake and popped straight over the bars, looked very painful. That big grippy DH tyre did not lock up, it just gripped and gripped.
“ With car and truck brakes you run out of tyre adhesion long before your run out of brake power. That is not the case with mountain bike brakes.”
Really?!! On both my bikes it’s dead easy to skid the rear and if I just yank on the front I’ll go over the bars if the grip is good or I’ll skid out. I don’t believe I’m the only rider with good brakes and finger strength.
HOUSE!
Pick a brake brand
be a dick about it.
See also computers, phones and sundry other modern consumer items.
I'm not a Hope fan and especially hated the Tech 2 level, but I bought a bike that had Tech 3 X2s on it and they were just bloody lovely to use compared to my XTRs (m988 and M9020). Yes, they didn't have the outright power, but I can just pull a little harder, rather than be overservoed. I fully intended to sell them, but given how nice they felt and given that I'd gone through 4 callipers in 2 years (3x XTR, 1 BR785) and was just waiting for the others to die. I swapped them all. I agree that they're fiddly to setup right, I agree that bleeding them is a PITA, I agree that they're expensive and lacking immediate power, but they are nicer to use, and completely unambiguous in operation. Something you absolutely want in a brake!
it'd be ace if these new levers brought their performance up to be comparable with sram code rsc. I'd have a pair like a shot. Problem is that you just cant trust any reviews as braking performance is so subjective (as proven by this and every other hope brake thread) .
I guess if the hope fanboys start saying they're too grabby then that would be a good sign....
Really?!! On both my bikes it’s dead easy to skid the rear and if I just yank on the front I’ll go over the bars if the grip is good or I’ll skid out.
I'm not sure I could skid the front on either of my bikes, Hope or Shimano. I could go OTB though if I just sat there like a sack of spuds and didn't get my weight back. But that movement is so instinctive I'm not sure I could actually brake hard without doing it.
I’m not sure I could skid the front on either of my bikes, Hope or Shimano.
Saints, the only brake i could lock up the back wheel with.
Actually my favourite was the C2. Immense power, just not suited for long runs, but outwith dh thats uncommon. 1" pistons and a solid non flexible lever.
Well I’ve ridden SRAM, admittedly not since the original Code, and they were ok initially but maintenance heavy with a habit of needing a bleed before they’d work.
I rode the old Hope Mono Minis and they were no better than ok.
I generally ride Hope X2, M4 or E4 these days (variety of different levers on them) and I like them. Very dependable. Would I like more power? In a brake with great modulation, yes of course, because I get to choose whether I use it. Do I need more power? No, not really.
I recently rode Shimano 6000 2 pots. No more power than an X2 and less feel. Quickly bought some Hopes for that bike.
Kept the 6000s and my son put them on his parts bin bike. He doesn’t like them as much as the ten year old M4s or newish X2s he had been using. Described it as you put them, the brake comes on, you pull a bit more and nothing more happens. I think he means, where my modulation gone?
Others will like the Shimano digital feel. And I hear SRAM brakes are not as temperamental as when I last had them.
Saints, the only brake i could lock up the back wheel with
Really? 😳
May I recommend some grip strengthening exercises.😉
bleeding them is a PITA
Reverse bleed works really well and is probably the easiest bleed on any brake.
Not what Hope recommend, but I see a lot of bike shops doing it on Hope.
Reverse bleed
which way is reverse?
Hopes seem like they do the job but there are like 4 people in my riding group who have Hope brakes and every single one of them squeals and squeaks in the most uncomfortable high pitched sound, that really puts me off them. I've seen lots of youtube people with Hope brakes also have the same sound, I wouldn't be able to put up with it if I had it on my bike.
Saints, the only brake i could lock up the back wheel with.
I can easily lock the back wheel on my retro 26er with v-brakes. In my garage.
How is "locking up" the measure of any brake for flip's sake??
thols2
Free MemberThe problem is that a brake that has good power at high speed cannot have good low-speed modulation, and vice-versa.
Ehhh... My ancient Formula The Ones, and some of the SRAM Guides and Levels, prove this wrong. And no doubt loads of others but those are the ones that I've got most experience of. Power and modulation aren't mutually exclusive at all.
But I think like people said earlier in the thread some people conflate grab with power, so brakes that have both good modulation and good power split opinion. I can definitely understand why a lot of companies, when they make a powerful brake, also make it unsubtle. Can't think of how many professional reviews I've read that complain about a lack of initial bite.
In the end it's a matter of taste- I did't like my Saints at all on the DH bike, and went back to my lovely The Ones, but I reckon that puts me in the minority.
Reverse bleed - drain the master cylinder, squirt new fluid into calliper bleed port while making sure the hose is the highest point on the calliper. Drain master and repeat. Keep doing it until the fluid at the master cylinder is clean and bubble free.
Done with either a long hose on the syringe to the calliper, or with two people it’s an almost continuous process. Great way to teach your son how brake bleeding works.
bleeding them is a PITA
No harder than a car brake, beats the hell out of buggering about with syringes and random fittings.
“ With car and truck brakes you run out of tyre adhesion long before your run out of brake power. That is not the case with mountain bike brakes.”
Really?!! On both my bikes it’s dead easy to skid the rear and if I just yank on the front I’ll go over the bars if the grip is good or I’ll skid out. I don’t believe I’m the only rider with good brakes and finger strength.
I did not word this very well
The power of MTB brakes is much closer to the tyre adhesion limit, it is why they are so sensitive to contanimation, heat and choice of friction material. Yes you can lock your wheels but can you do it in all conditions and at all speeds? probably not.
Automotive brakes can run red hot, with oil on the discs and low quality pads and still bring you to a stop because they have orders of magnitude more brake torque than is required to by the tyres.
Hope used to have the best customer service ever !! Last few times I’ve needed assistance it’s been shit ! Too popular now ? Zero ****s given ?
Who knows maybe I’ve caught them on a bad day/s ?
Ffs are we doing this again already?
My Hope brakes are righteous gods whilst all others are blasphemous devils.
“ Automotive brakes can run red hot, with oil on the discs and low quality pads and still bring you to a stop because they have orders of magnitude more brake torque than is required to by the tyres.”
I haven’t driven a car with unservoed brakes in a very long time - but isn’t that the big difference?
When a car skids it doesn’t fall over and now we have ABS they don’t really skid. On a MTB we spend a lot of our time on the limit of grip, both braking and cornering.
What are motorbike brakes like?
How is “locking up” the measure of any brake for flip’s sake??
Shows it has the grab to do that. Which incidentally my new deore 4 pots cant. Odd that isnt it.
for flips sake.
But no need to throw a tantrum.
What are motorbike brakes like?
Ok but not as good as well set up Hopes . 🙂
Hopes are really simple to bleed. Far easier than the shimano, Sram and Tectro I have also bled. No special kit needed - just a bottle of fluid and a piece of clear tubing and an old jam jar
My Hope brakes are righteous gods whilst all others are blasphemous devils.
Lolz
How is “locking up” the measure of any brake for flip’s sake??
I'm kindof with you on this. I'm going to caveat the following with "I am not a physicist" however I see it like this:
When you apply the brakes what you're trying to do is turn the kinetic energy of your bike moving forwards into heat ...and in the case of Hope's, lots of noise :-D.
When you lock a wheel all you're doing is prove that you can very quickly turn the kinetic energy of a wheel's rotation (but not the bike's kinetic energy) into heat. It does naff all to disperse the kinetic energy of the bike (and more specificaly my mass perched upon it) as it hurtles towards a tree. In fact all that happens is that the kinetic energy of the bike is transfered into heat build up of the now-locked tyre scrubbing along the ground.
Now, are there any physicists in the room to tell me exactly how flawed my logic is?
Something about a plane on a conveyor belt?
When you lock a wheel all you’re doing is prove that you can very quickly turn the kinetic energy of a wheel’s rotation (but not the bike’s kinetic energy) into heat. It does naff all to disperse the kinetic energy of the bike
Yup, understood 🙂
It's happened when ive come round a corner or bend and suddenly happened upon someone and their dog. A frightened sudden yank on the back.
At least it straightens me up.
I've got Magura, Shimano and Sram brakes on my bikes, no real issues with any of them.
🤷♂️
Might buy some hope calibers for the cross bike though. They're very pretty. 😏
My road bike has shimano levers and hope calipers...
I noticed these new levers at ardrock, saw the guy who won the vets, lightning fast down stage 7, so had a sneaky look at his bike back in the event village front of the hope tent, difficult to tell without all the e4s on other bikes
You can put the bigger RX4 mineral oil piston seals in E4 calipers and mate then to Shimano master cylinders in theory.
That way you get a pretty caliper that won't leak and a more grabby lever that will lead and randomly pull to the bars.
You can put the bigger RX4 mineral oil piston seals in E4 calipers and mate then to Shimano master cylinders in theory.
That is an interesting idea. If my Magura callipers ever let me down I may investigate further.
a more grabby lever that will lead (leak?) and randomly pull to the bars.
Not experienced that so far but I do agree with whoever said the Shimano master cyclinder could do with a greater capacity.
How is “locking up” the measure of any brake for flip’s sake??
Your maximum braking power is achieved with the wheel right on the limit of locking up. If a brake is capable of locking up a wheel, then the limiting factor is tyre grip, not the brakes (this is irrelevant if going OTB is the limiting factor). When you get a brake that can't even lock up a rear wheel, then you know there's something seriously wrong. It's not that you want to lock up wheels, it's that being able to lock them up is a very simple test of whether the brakes are working properly.
