[Closed] Helmets (or lack thereof at Dalby)

Oh noes!

I just checked and [url= http://news.google.co.uk/news/search?q=bike+death+dalby ]no bike deaths are being reported at Dalby[/url]. Phew!

[url= http://news.google.co.uk/news/search?q=car+death+north+yorkshire ]Car deaths nearby[/url], however...

*sigh*

You know what - I can't be bothered

Did they have a helmet in their backpacks?

I must admit that I always have a silent "?" to myself whenever I see someone wearing body armour but no helmet.

Haha 😈

Did they have a helmet in their backpacks?

What did they say when you asked them?

Of course, being so concerned for their welfare, you did tackle them about it, didn't you?

Concerned for their welfare? No no no, concerned that when they knock themselves out, or worse, that the trail might get closed, or similar H+S beaurocracy might take hold, or that I might be the next rider round the bend and have to help clean it up, or some impressionable kid might think it's ok and hurt themselves.

I'm concerned at the increased risk to all caused by people driving to trail centres.

Mowgli - Member

Concerned for their welfare? No no no, concerned that when they knock themselves out, or worse, that the trail might get closed, or similar H+S beaurocracy might take hold, or that I might be the next rider round the bend and have to help clean it up, or some impressionable kid might think it's ok and hurt themselves.

Have you got any evidence any of this is true?

99% of folk I see at Dalby (and out cross country) wear helmets the other 1% are "a nasty head injury waiting to happen". All trail centres should have a policy of no helmet no riding. I don't give a flying @uck about the arguements on here as I have seen to many damaged,indented and broken helmets to know that they work.

TJ:
I have personally seen the result of serious head injury, so yes. It would not be appropriate to put the details on here but I can sent you a link to the coroners inquest if you are interested.

I don't give a flying @uck about the arguements on here as I have seen to many damaged,indented and broken helmets to know that they work.

A damaged helmet tells you that they work? Interesting

How many broken heads have you seen - helmeted or not helmeted?

Quite often, when out for a ride with Mrs BigJohn I don't wear a helmet and she does.

I find it stops me from going down some of the rocky rooty stuff (because I can't bring myself to do that if I haven't got it on) which she would find a bit too intimidating, and would stop her wanting to come out with me again.

mowgli does have a point : wasnt it Dalby afew weeks ago that there was a serious head injury (someone had to be airlifted out) Mowgli has a good point ! i for one dont go anywear with my helmet ! even a slow skid (into a tree with no lid can cause bad head injuries (and especially now we are into the wet season (tree routes are very slippery causing you to go 'off camber' every now and then.... be careful out there people...
NO dont have ago at me either.... "wear a lid ...it could save your life" ! 😉

Mowgili - I have worked with people with head injuries. You have seen one. That proves what exactly?

I suggest you have a search on here for previous debate on this.

99% of folk I see at Dalby (and out cross country) wear helmets the other 1% are "a nasty head injury waiting to happen".

The people I see riding helmetless are generally just pootling about.

Those with helmets are heading for more technical stuff and are travelling faster.

Who is at most risk of injury?

How big a leap is it from "MTBing is dangerous so everyone should be made to wear a helmet" to "MTBing is dangerous so it should be banned"?

yep here it is : serious head injury : Dalby

http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/Dalby-Forest-Pontefract-crash-cyclist.6548136.jp

even a slow skid (into a tree with no lid can cause bad head injuries

Probabilities?

Even walking to the shops can cause serious head injuries

Even one drink can cause serious head injuries

yep here it is : serious head injury : Dalby

http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/Dalby-Forest-Pontefract-crash-cyclist.6548136.jp

What about instances of pedestrians suffering head injury? At least one pedestrian was saved from death after being hit by a bus because he was wearing a bike helmet.

TJ... I know this is your big thing but I have witnessed the aftermath of 3 nasty head injurys, mainly in Dalby. I spend alot of time out on the trials and I always try and help if I see an accident(being ex army,first aid,scout leader etc etc).I am just concerned for people safety and a believe helmet wearing in most instances to be safer .....You are entitled to your opinion but you may just sometimes be wrong.

Mowgili - I have worked with people with head injuries. You have seen one. That proves what exactly?

I suggest you have a search on here for previous debate on this.

You asked if I had evidence to back up the claims I made in my earlier post. I do, and offered to send said evidence to you. This is not a competition about 'who has dealt with the most head injuries'. One is enough.

I asked if yo had any evidence for

Mowgli - Member

Concerned for their welfare? No no no, concerned that when they knock themselves out, or worse, that [b]the trail might get closed,[/b] or similar H+S beaurocracy might take hold, or that [b]I might be the next rider round the bend and have to help clean it up[/b], or some [b]impressionable kid might think it's ok[/b] and hurt themselves.

Teh fact that someone has had a head injury is no evidence for your claims here. All it is is anecdote not evidence and only then to the fact that someone has head a head injury

Wearing a helmet? It's a no brainer, excuse the pun. I went over the bars earlier this summer, due the the long dry weather the ground was like concrete, I managed to knock myself out and suffer a severely displaced fractured clavicle. The helmet definitely saved me a serious if not fatal head injury, foolishly I was also alone in a fairly remote forest, I managed to cycle home in a concussed state, god knows how.

stumpynya12 - Member

TJ... I know this is your big thing but I have witnessed the aftermath of 3 nasty head injurys, mainly in Dalby. I spend alot of time out on the trials and I always try and help if I see an accident(being ex army,first aid,scout leader etc etc).I am just concerned for people safety and a believe helmet wearing in most instances to be safer .....You are entitled to your opinion but you may just sometimes be wrong.

Perfectly reasonable position. I have no issue with that at all.

My issue is with the hysterical way many folk approach this issue."wear a helmet or the sky will fall in"

I always ( these days) wear a helmet at a trail ctre.

TJ Thank you for your honest reply.

I wonder if you are this much of a t0sser in real life, or you just behave like this to entertain yourself on the internet.

When I were a lad....
In the 1960's helmets were not required in any form of cycling competition except track racing (velodrome).
As a consequence of this, only the tough guys wore them in roadraces, indicating to the other competitors that they didn't mind a bit of handlebar-banging on the run-in to the finish.
At Dalby, sometimes I wear one (if it's greasy for instance), most of the time I don't.
Let the individual decide.
Like the man said, you are far more likely to sustain a serious injury on the drive to Dalby than you are riding round those most excellent trails.

Stumpy - And I don't want someone telling me what I should and shouldn't do. I am an adult and capable of making up my own mind

I really dislike the "someone got a head injury - you must wear a helmet"
"wear a helmet of you will die" "A helmet saved my life"

there is so much hysterical nonsense talked about cycle helmets that has no basis in any evidence.

edit - Crossed posts

TJ has the right to his opinions, this is a forum for debate is it not. I may not agree with everybody all of the time but this can be a good place and can we just remember we all have a common interest and stop kicking off ..... it must be a monday morning thing 🙁

Mowgli - you know someone who has had a head injury. That has no bearing on the things you claimed in your post.

Logic - one thing does not follow another

TandemJeremy - Member

You know what - I can't be bothered

😆

TJ ...I fully understand your concerns freedom of choice and stuff I assume. I for one would like to apologise for others on here as you have some good stuff to share. God we will get some stick now for being forum buddies must be the Yorkshire and Scotsmen being equally stubborn issue.

And while we are on the subject, Dixons Hollow needs a radical re-design.
The builders have done their best I suppose, but that's where the majority of Dalby accidents happen. Mostly because of the acceleration you get off the first jump. Catapults you into the second jump, then you flat-land in the middle of the next dip....next stop, hospital. Happens weekly.

Ta stumpy.

I am not against helmets. I am against the hyterical way some people aproach the subject

I do believe theyb are not nearly as protective as people seem to think and also that cycling is a safe pursuit so helmets are not needed for low risk cycling

TJ I know you're very passionate about not wearing a lid, I too never used to wear a lid until the day I head-butted a tree trunk, very hard, on my own, in the middle of nowhere. My vague memory is of something sounding like a wooden mallet whacking a coconut (no jokes please!). It hurt, I was dazed and rode around in circles bleeding. I now wear a lid, and on Saturday a low hanging branch whacked my helmet. Glad I cleared up up for you 😉

I read somewhere that head injuries can change your accent and even your political leanings, are you 100% certain you've never hit your head? 😮

enfit - I am passionate about informed choice and not wanted to be berated by hysterical people. I wear a helmet some of the time - when the risks are high. I don't when the risks are low. My choice

I read somewhere that head injuries can change your accent and even your political leanings, are you 100% certain you've never hit your head?

I was dropped on my head when I was a kid.

TJ - the choice is not yours, risk is always high.

Another pointless debate.

Never understood what the problem with wearing a helmet is - I never notice I've got mine on when I'm riding. I always wear one because in the unlikely event I bang my head on something hard I want a helmet in between my skull and the hard thing if at all possible (I realise a helmet won't always be effective). I view traveling at 10+ mph with my head 5'+ off the ground as a sufficient risk to warrant wearing it on the bike regardless of any other factors.

rewski - Member

TJ - the choice is not yours, risk is always high.

Another pointless debate.

Rubbish. Go look at the stats. Cycling is a very safe pursuit.

How big a leap is it from "MTBing is dangerous so everyone should be made to wear a helmet" to "MTBing is dangerous so it should be banned"?

Do you wear a helmet in the bath? Walking downstairs? Walking to the shops? In your car?

You are at least as likely to have a head injury doing these things as yo are cycling

I wear one whilst reading STW.

It prevents injury when I repeatedly smack my head against the wall when reading your posts about how ignorant we all are TJ.

Do you wear a helmet in the bath? Walking downstairs? Walking to the shops? In your car?

You are at least as likely to have a head injury doing these things as yo are cycling

Provide evidence. Head injuries per distance travelled preferably, or head injuries by time travelled if not.

Good move rusty.
always a wise move I feel

TJ - can you provide a link to the stats please? Thanks

TJ you say you wear one when you feel High Risk; the other armour on display suggests the rider felt enough risk for elbows or knees = risk of falling; surely, therefore a helmet wouldn't be out of place?

That was the issue, I felt, the OP was getting at; not so much the no helmet of itself, as why no helmet yet other armour and "need" for full sus?

[url= http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1026.html ]some info on relative risk[/url]

Can't find my way around the rospas site but IIRC more people die of head injuries in cars than do on bicycles

Please take your pinch of salt and note that all cycling is lumped in together. I think we could all agree that some forms of cycling are more dangerous thn others ( DH racing to traffic free sustrans route)

I've got kids. A helmet is a no-brainer - would be selfish in the extreme to do otherwise - actually, I can't personally see the reason NOT to wear one aside from vanity. But then it's people's personal choice so hey, it's up to you, just don't expect tea and sympathy from me if you come off and bang your noggin.

Always wear one. Came off recently (still can't remember anything about it)ended up in hospital - helmet cracked so obviously did it's job. Dread to think of consequences if hadn't been wearing it.

langy - Member

That was the issue, I felt, the OP was getting at; not so much the no helmet of itself, as why no helmet yet other armour and "need" for full sus?

I agree it seems weird.

I always wear a helmet when I'm mountain biking. However, I don't have any problem with anyone who doesn't. I think helmets offer much more limited protection then the vast majority of people seem to think. I think that they do protect you from cuts and grazes but as far a reducing the severity of concussions goes I'm not so sure.

I know that a lot of amateur rugby players feel that they put themselves at much more risk if they wear a scrum cap because they feel much more protected. I also wear a scrum cap but that's because I always seem to end up bleeding if I don't. Could be that bike helmets increase your perceived safety a lot more than your actual safety.

Anyone else got deja vu?

- helmet cracked so obviously did it's job. Dread to think of consequences if hadn't been wearing it.

There is no way you can say this. Its equally realistic to say the helmet failed and didn't protect you hence you got concussion. or that the helmet caused the concussion thru rotation. All three explanations are possible.

woffle - Member

I've got kids. A helmet is a no-brainer - would be selfish in the extreme to do otherwise - actually, I can't personally see the reason NOT to wear one aside from vanity.

Selfish? how do yuo figure that out

Reasons not to wear one

comfort, visibility, pleasure, risk compensation.

TJ, so you can't provide the info to back up your statement that:

Do you wear a helmet in the bath? Walking downstairs? Walking to the shops? In your car?
You are at least as likely to have a head injury doing these things as yo are cycling

Are you prepared to withdraw the statement then?

Like the man said, you are far more likely to sustain a serious injury on the drive to Dalby than you are riding round those most excellent trails.

Really?

I used to think much the same about kayaking on whitewater, but if you actually speak to people about it you realise it's rubbish. Driving really is quite safe.

Anecdotally I've never been injured either driving or as a passenger in a car, but have and do fall off my bike and do myself notable (though thankfully nothing drastic) damage relatively frequently - say at least once a year.

But it is not just you that is affected if you have a spill and aren't wearing a helmet, it is the next guy along who has to try to deal with your self-inflicted injuries 'cos you wouldn't wear a helmet.

Apart from anything else this could lead to a loss of his ride time - just because you were being a selfish t0sser. I would almost be tempted to ride past someone with a head injury and no helmet - after all it is all part of Darwinian evolution...

Bit like people going out in the mountians with proper gear and then expecting mountian rescue to come and get them when it all goes wrong.

I can't be arsed to find it - the data on the rospa site is hard to get to.

I did give you some on relative risk

Here are a few bits

under 200 cyclists dies, over 600 pedestrians, over a thousand car users

Assuming a similar rate of head injury then protecting all pedestrians and all car drivers with helmets would save more lives than protecting all cyclists
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1208

Anyone who wants more go search for previous debates on this

i can't be arsed any more

Thanks TJ - Interesting, although those figures are from 1986, not sure if that's relevant, for one riding has become more extreme and helmet technology much improved.

For me it's kind of missed the point, if you ride a lot off-road the risk is high, wearing a helmet reduces the risk of upper head injury by 63% and loss of consciousness by 86%. Doesn't take a genius really.

rewski

it depends on the type of off-road FFS.

Where do you get those stats from - I have never seen any for offroad riding and the only stats I have seen that show reduction in head injury are badly flawed.

After the fact surveys of people attending A&E produce false positives from a self selecting data set - its not a comparison with the entire population of riders

Studies that look at accident rates as helmet wearing rises show no reduction in head injuries. - also flawed studies.

I wear a fez when cycling. I find that it crumples when I hit a tree head on at 40+ miles per hour and then I just straighten it out, ready for my next ride.

Its equally realistic to say the helmet failed and didn't protect you hence you got concussion

If the helmet is designed to absorb impacts & lessen deceleration by fracturing, and that same can only be achieved to a limited degree, (both of which I understand to be the case) I don't see how it can be said to have failed.

Of course everytime someone says "I would have died without my helmet - look at how broken it is" I roll my eyes and salute my inner TJ.

Yeah what's with the helmet on the backpack idea?

We came across a group of riders on some local trails recently and a few had helmets on their packs. I thought, "maybe they'll use them on the tricky downhill section coming up."

Caught and passed them on the downhill and none of them had donned their lids. Now I fall off on that section now and again so I was surprised that even worse riders than myself had bothered to bring helemts and then not use them.

I don't really have a point to make but I agree with TJ.

Right TJ, so you make a provocative statement without evidence then can't be bothered to defend or explain it. 🙄

Most people on here are rational adults.

We understand that the statistical data regarding helmet use is complicated and occasionally contradictory.

Given that, the only thing we can rely on is personal experience.
Many of us appear to have personal experience of crashes which we believe may have had more serious consequences if we had not been wearing a helmet.
Funnily enough, most people on here are not as stupid as you seem to think we are.
We might just be capable of assessing our own accidents & the causes, consequences and the circumstances surrounding them and making value judgements about our own helmet use based on our conclusions.

Your constant and oft repeated insistence that you know best when discussing accidents that you have no direct knowledge of is patronising in the extreme.

i can't be arsed any more

Selfish? how do yuo figure that out

Reasons not to wear one

comfort, visibility, pleasure, risk compensation.

As I said, I've got kids - it seems to me that not wearing a helmet, whether commuting or otherwise, is going to increase the potential damage that a tree / car + head interface is going to do. Given I'm the sole breadwinner (from a materialistic point of view) if, heaven-forbid, anything were to happen to me because of me coming off my bike, then it'd be selfish NOT to do my best to minimize any effects. Maybe it's just me and the fact my wife lost her Dad at young age makes me sensitive / risk aware but I'd do anything for my kids and spending 20 seconds a day taking my helmet off and on isn't any kind of trouble.

As I said - it's your choice. But I'll still believe that it would be selfish of ME to do otherwise.

Also -

Comfort - really? Can't say I even notice wearing my helmet. Maybe back in the days of the TuffTop but I can't accept this with modern lids.

Visibility - what? How BIG is your helmet? Oddly enough my helmet is invisible to me as it's on.the.top.of.my.head. It has reflective strips on it that makes me more visible to other people mind you...

Pleasure - well, whatever floats your boat I guess.

Risk compensation - if you ride differently because you're wearing a helmet then fair enough - to be honest and as explained above, I can't say I notice I'm wearing mine so kind of negates this argument.

Hey-ho, it's horses for courses isn't it? Just think personally the reasons not to wear a helmet are outweighed by the reasons to wear one IMO

errr, anyway, back to the Originaaal Post: can we at least agree that if you are riding a big bike round a trail centre and thinsk it gnarly enough to wear body armour, it certainly ought to be accompanied by a helmet?

Then we can be 'hysterical' about the less clear-cut areas of radness/dangerousness.

Does Jesus provide comfort to those who don't use helmets though?

markd - Member

Does Jesus provide comfort to those who don't use helmets though?

Ephesians 6 identifies the equipment required for spiritual warfare, and presumably cycling as well:

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God."

Doesn't specify whether it should be full or open face though.

I am convinced now. Thanks for that epiphany. YAY!

lots of blokes in lycra, knee pads and full sus talent compensators costing a small fortune, and no lid!

Where they not pootling en route to session some knarl? Whence the full facers come out of the backpack?

Ok - had a play on the rospa site
http://www.hassandlass.org.uk/query/MainSelector.aspx?Reset=T

Head injuries when performing household tasks such as cooking and washing - 2194

Head injuries from cycling - 62

Head injuries in cars 1476

Using the same criteria in the search - Part of body injured: Head/Face
Type of injury: Concussion/Unconsciousness then activity and object or product involved specific.

I am very suprised at these numbers but its what I got.

So from that head compulsory helmets around the home or in cars would save more head injuries than compulsory cycle helmets 🙂

Has anyone put the kettle on yet?

I was going to put the kettle but I just smashed my head on the kitchen cupboard, if only I'd been wearing...

My worst head injuries have come when drinking. 😳

Only 62 cycling head injuries?

Well, that shows that wearing a helmet seems to work then!
Just imagine how many there would have been if more cyclists chose not to wear one 😉

I've just put a pizza in the oven and made a cup of tea. According to the above stats, it's the grarliest, raddest thing I've done all weekend 😀
Pepperoni, too.

Seriously though TJ, can we break those down and compare the car/bike stats by distance or time travelled?

Tollah !!!! Hows our mum these days ? 😯

TJ I'm with you on this but your stats are useless. We need to know how many people were perfoming household tasks/ driving cars / cycling etc to get a meaningful rate of injury which would be neigh on impossible.

I don't think this argument can be won either way to be honest, but ulitimately as you say we are all indiviuals and know what we are doing so all these preachers should butt out.

She's got the kettle on Stumpy!