Just stumbled across this by chance, but it appears that high end Shimano race brakes now run a new type of Low Viscosity mineral oil. Apparently the lower viscosity means that it will transfer hydraulic pressure more quickly.
It's not it appears compatible with standard mineral oil systems or vice versa (using the wrong sort may screw your brakes) and I can see there being a lot of potential mix ups.
As a keen pootler with no skills I've never been too concerned with marginal gains (the swap from outboard to inboard banjo nuts apparently gained you 10% activation time, but felt just the same to me) and anyway, I can't afford top tier kit but other will be impressed.
Is this a genuine advancement or just change for change's sake?
https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/shimano-lv-mineral-oil-brake-fluid
Saw it in the STW feature when the new XTR came out. Presumed it was just for them and new gens of Shimano brakes. Something about it improving the wandering bite-point issue (which I've not experienced, though my son's Saints are very prone to it)
The new fluid is one part of an attempt to stop the wandering bite point issue. Which I haven't noticed on more recent Shimano brakes anyway. Had one set of XTs where it was noticeable while riding. Interestingly Sram are now having similar issues after switching to mineral oil. Shimano sent out a questionnaire some time ago within the industry to shops or whoever gets these things asking if a new mineral oil would be acceptable to them if it fixed the issue. Apparently the answer came back yes.
The secret fix for wondering bite point was Putoline 2.5wt fork oil.
I'm sure Shimano will tell you it will be death by bicycle fireball if you mix them but there's likely not going to be an issue using new fluid in old brakes.
The secret fix for wondering bite point was Putoline 2.5wt fork oil.
I'm sure Shimano will tell you it will be death by bicycle fireball if you mix them but there's likely not going to be an issue using new fluid in old brakes.
I've not done a full flush and replace with the Putoline HPX yet, but mixed it in with existing fluid - with promising results so far.
My experience was that it was becoming less of an issue anyway, but new problems were emerging (leaky calipers).
I was reading that bikeradar article yesterday, and it seems very mealymouthed. At no point do they really answer "yeah but why", even though the answer would appear, from various sources, to be "because old mineral oil was leading to Shimano's infamous wandering bite point problems"
Fine if they want to do it (just mark the brakes and make sure there's a supply for home mechanics) but I've never had an issue with the existing oil that seemed to be the fault of the oil. My oldest (albeit lightly used) Deore level brakes are from 2003, the only problematic set is one from 2009. The 2003, 2015 and 2020 sets have been pretty close to flawless.
Been using the Putoline HPX R 2.5wt in some M8100 brakes for couple of years - no leaks and wandering bite point disappeared. Shimano coming out with a low viscosity oil sort of vindicates those already using Putoline or Redline Like Water as a fix.
I'm willing to bet that the new stuff will be fine in the old brakes - ultimately the return of fluid when you release the lever pressure is an imprecise science when you've got variations in brake pipe length and routing, so I can't really see how Shimano can be so confident that the new fluid would be disastrous in the old brakes. (And there are Youtube videos of people using water and baby oil at the very least).
The general explanation does make some sense though - really all that can cause it is air in the system, and air could get pulled into the lever piston from the master cylinder if the fluid doesn't return quickly enough. Also probably explains why most people claim that a bleed fixes it - that would minimise the air in the master cylinder so mostly/only fluid rather than air can get pulled in (well pushed when there's a vacuum on the other side) from the master cylinder.
So which hero is going to try it?
Edit: Does occur to me that BH90 hose could be a contributing factor mind, the smaller bore vs BH59 will definitely restrict the return of the mineral oil.
so whats the difference between this new oil, reverb oil, and johnsons baby oil? asking for a friend..
and air could get pulled into the lever piston from the master cylinder if the fluid doesn't return quickly enough.
Only with a previous poor bleed that left air under the diaphragm. NO air should be able to get into the master cylinder
If you imagine a super high viscosity brake fluid you can picture how it would be very difficult to bleed but also that you’d get less feedback from piston to lever of what the brakes are doing.
Conversely a super low viscosity fluid would bleed easily but might put too much vibration through the lever and more importantly might leak past the seals.
And whatever the fluid it has to not react with the seals etc.
A lower viscosity mineral oil makes sense if it’s more like DOT fluid. I’ve often wondered if that viscosity difference is part of why Hope feel so much more nuanced than Shimano?
If you imagine a super high viscosity brake fluid you can picture how it would be very difficult to bleed but also that you’d get less feedback from piston to lever of what the brakes are doing.
Conversely a super low viscosity fluid would bleed easily but might put too much vibration through the lever and more importantly might leak past the seals.
And whatever the fluid it has to not react with the seals etc.
A lower viscosity mineral oil makes sense if it’s more like DOT fluid. I’ve often wondered if that viscosity difference is part of why Hope feel so much more nuanced than Shimano?
I don't think this is entirely true - the viscosity is only relevant when the fluid is flowing, so yes it could affect the bleed, but once you're feeling the fluid pressure through the levers the fluid will have stopped flowing pretty much.
Only with a previous poor bleed that left air under the diaphragm. NO air should be able to get into the master cylinder
Not sure about this - certainly after a good bleed there shouldn't be any air in the system, (hence why floating bite advice was always 'good bleed'), but I find it hard to believe that the system remains air free once the pads have worn and master cylinder fluid has made up the difference leaving a vacuum behind initially...but atmospheric pressure. Otherwise why would you ever need to bleed a system again?
A hydraulic disc erake system is a closed system with a diaphragm to allow for varying volumes. there is no where to get air in. I suspect that cases like you mention is air under the diaphragm in the reservoir getting into the lines. There simply is no where for air to get in unless seals fail. I have multiple sets of hopes, none of them have ever required re bleeding unless air under the diaphragm has got into the lines. I think shimano have very low reservoir volumes making this more likely
Air cannot get in to a closed system There is never a vacuum created in the system. The lever spring does not act to pull the pads back, the piston seal pushes the lever back. The diaphragm moves to keep the system at atmospheric pressure as pads wear
But in the real world TJ no seal is perfect and many flexible rubber-like materials will pass through gas molecules slowly - see how quickly non-foil balloons deflate.
Apparently the lower viscosity means that it will transfer hydraulic pressure more quickly.
Hydraulic pressure will be transferred at the speed of sound within the medium. A brake hose is less than 2 meters long. You wouldn't tell the difference in speed of transfer between different fluids.
Apparently the lower viscosity means that it will transfer hydraulic pressure more quickly.
Hydraulic pressure will be transferred at the speed of sound within the medium. A brake hose is less than 2 meters long. You wouldn't tell the difference in speed of transfer between different fluids.
I only understand the basics of hydraulic systems & braking systems, and hadn't heard about LV mineral oil until stumbling across the BikeRadar article, which is where that came from. Interestingly the article doesn't even mention the wandering bite point.
Shimano sent out a questionnaire some time ago within the industry to shops or whoever gets these things asking if a new mineral oil would be acceptable to them if it fixed the issue. Apparently the answer came back yes.
So Shimano are admitting that it's a problem then are they? I'm rarely up to date with what's going on in the cycling industry (I'm still 3x10 & QR wheels) but it used to be that there wasn't a problem (although you could warranty your brakes if you were experiencing said non-existent problem). The advice on here was often that it was all down to poor bleeding technique.
If the wandering bite point issue is oil related then surely they could make something that was backwards compatible or at least make compatible seals available.
The other thing that seems odd is that the article states (although maybe that it's not as reliable as I thought) that currently only XTR & XT race brakes use the oil with everything else remaining on the old 'flawed' oil.
Everyone does degas their fluid before a bleed, yeah? That seems to help make the bleed and lever feel remain consistent for far longer than anything else I've tried...however, helping get all the air out can take some.time.and persuasion.
On a friends SLX brakes that had a wandering bite point the pistons were slightly sticky. They'd retract enough to not rub and then very slowly move in a bit more. A replacement calliper seems to have fixed it for the moment.
So Shimano are admitting that it's a problem then are they?
Yeah, along with the rattling pad issue. Shimano have put forward some fixes for that too. It's never happened with my brakes though so I don't know what all the fuss is about.
I'm inclined to believe Shimano brakes do allow air in somehow over time. I've had 10-12 pairs of Shimanos over the last 15 years and most have required occasional bleeding, some regular, a few with far too much air way too often to be a bad bleed or already in the fluid. The one exception is GRX, which are the only drop bar brakes I've had. If I ever go to bleed Sram, there's just no air in there.
Thing is, even if it is purely an "air still in after bleeding" thing, that's still a design failure when it's so widespread and so frustrating. It's weird to me this stuff, I'm using 15 year old brakes that don't do this, good brakes are a long solved problem- in fact even the crappest brake manufacturers have managed to solve this problem at least once but some of them just keep reinventing old problems, for a laugh.
so what do people think about using the new 8220 calipers with the older 8100 levers? my calipers are shot so wondered if it was worth a go? if it doesnt work then i can upgrade the levers down the line. just wondered if the hydraulic hoses and fittings are the same and if i would use the new or old mineral oil?
So lower viscosity oil allows entrained air to migrate up the line and more easily transfer to the reservoir at the lever, or at least that’s my understanding.
Air will always be in the fluid, if you can degas it under vacuum then I suppose that would also help minimise the issues and lower viscosity should help also.
My biggest issue currently is on my gravel bike, I was beginning to wonder if the slightly inclined levers (from the flared bars) were preventing air bubbles from getting to the reservoir properly. Gravity bleeding with all sorts of angling about helps for a bit but then they’re back to wandering bite and needing a couple of pumps each ride, within a couple of rides. Colder weather can’t help either, but I reckon it’s worth me trying some putoline 2.5w in them (not paying the shimano markups if I don’t have to). My only worry is shimano calliper seals and their apparent variability.
so what do people think about using the new 8220 calipers with the older 8100 levers?
I doubt that the different fluid would be a problem. You'd just need to make sure you have the correct hoses and fittings.
However, Shimano will probably say that mixing them voids warranty. I personally would just go ahead and try it, but it's ultimately your decision if you want to risk it.
Thing is, even if it is purely an "air still in after bleeding" thing, that's still a design failure when it's so widespread
Just an observation, is this just an issue with flat bar lever systems (my SLX brakes experience it) or is it also an issue with drop bar systems? I haven't ridden my gravel bike enough to notice if it's there.
It's just that Shimano seem to have acknowledged an issue and claimed to have solved it with LV oil but whilst browsing Shimano's website I've noticed that top tier gravel & road systems are still using standard viscosity mineral oil.
That will be because the road and gravel stuff pre-dates the release of LV fluid and Shimano say you can't use the new fluid in older systems.
I thought I'd unearth this thread as I took delivery of some Putoline HPX last night and I could probably do with some helpful input.
I'm intending to bleed the brakes on my Road/Gravel bike first (Tiagra levers with Ultegra/105 callipers) to try and address the generally mushy lever that firms up with some pumping, previous couple of attempts have been gravity bleeds with lots of tilting/manipulation of the levers to try and ensure no airlocks in the reservoir, good for half a ride then the mush and wandering bite returns.
So should I attempt another Gravity bleed, or push fresh fluid up from the calliper, or even do both to try and get the absolute best, most optimal bleed?
I'm willing to do a bit more disassembly this time (might as well take the opportunity to replace bar tape anyway) to help with manipulating the levers about.
Any thoughts from the collective?