[Closed] Has VPP had it's day?

"trailertrash - Member
Singlepivot systems are just as guilty of 'marketing hype' as any other system.
A badly designed and tuned suspension system will be poor, whatever.
do you see a coming reduction in the popularity of VPP bikes in the uk? or shall we say 'relatively complex and expensive suspension systems'. i think it could be."

Given the increase in the unemloyed, the cost of living etc I reckon we will see a downturn in exotic bikes being bought/sold. Hence the reason why high end bikes are becoming more expensive/exclusive, imo ofcourse.

Be interesting to see the visitor numbers to trail centres over the next few yrs 💡

I have only have one fs bike, a `05 Kona Dawg. Took me 3yrs to find the bike I liked to [i]ride[/i] During those 3yrs I attended numerous test days at various venues, listened to all the hype and ended up buying what was probably the simplest bike baring the Oranges which irritated my knees and through experience of others were not on my wish list anyway.
Forget the hype as has already been said and if like me you do not understand or are able to

feel it

folk will always buy the next greatest thing, especially if it's expensive.

As for pedal bob junkyard, it causes me no bother at all on my 5" single pivot bike, and yes I've tried various systems. I'd even race on it. I just don't see why folk get so hung up about it (other than having been sucked in) thinking they'll get to the top of a climb a few seconds quicker. Unless they are racing, and even then it's well established that full Sus feels slower but is actually faster.

it's a long time since I saw any marketing for sp based on anything other than it's simplicity.

Has anyone here other than Adam designed, built and raced a full sus bike of their own? You may not agree with him (I do) but at least he's putting his ideas into practice and doing some real world, not just armchair, testing

Who's Adam?

thepodge you can't say folks' opinions are not valid because they aren't designers.

Unless they are racing, and even then it's well established that full Sus feels slower but is actually faster.

is it? probably depends on the full sus. a lot of xc race bikes are lightweight hardtails.

I just don't see why folk get so hung up about it (other than having been sucked in) thinking they'll get to the top of a climb a few seconds quicker.

because getting into the detail is part of the fun for some people? and that's quite fine.

There have been (reasonably scientific) tests that show that racers ride faster with lower heart rates on full suss.

I wouldn't take heed of the racing community's rate of take-up of new technology as a guide to whether it works or not.

yeah getting into the detail can be fun for sure, I just like to keep handle on it's actual relevance.

no, I don't expect you would take heed 🙂 but actually they were pretty quick on front suspension as I recall.

have you got any references for these tests? they would be interesting to read.

I've used a single pivot bike for 4 years,Orange 5,and my current Giant for 3 years, with the multi link rear suspension, and for me the multi link bike pedals far better than the single pivot.Its most noticeable on rocky climbs but its equally as good on smoother fire roads.
Downhill there is very little difference,but the Giant just seems to cope with square edge hits a bit better,and the back end feels more composed braking hard into rocky corners.
If the Orange 5 is considered one of the best single pivot bikes then i will be sticking to the multis.

Has VPP had it's day?

No.

HTH.

Giant just seems to cope with square edge hits

Can't believe it took almost 3 pages for this little gem to be rolled out...

the main problem with simple single pivot designs is that the shock rate is actualy falling rate,, somewhat overcome by the use of air sprung shocks,,

most more modern single pivot now have a linkage to drive the rear shock so the shock rate can now be tuned to what the designer wants ,or what he thinks he wants

i still think j shaped axle paths or at least those with an initial rearward movement have potential to help over larger square edge bumps
or use larger wheels but it's pointless in my opinion to have the j shaped part in the part of the travel before the sag point as it will hardly get used

i use a bit of software called linkage to design and compare different suspension systems it is very interesting comparing the axle path of compicated systems with a single pivot design ,,

i feel the problem is that every year the companies have to bring out new bikes with new features to try to get the punters to buy new models making last years obsolete and worthless

funny thing is the the laast bike i was working on was a single pivot linkage driven dh bike,,, and the current project is a rigid 29er

" the back end feels more
composed braking hard into rocky corners ."

is my own favourite 😀

TT there was a test in a mag early last decade. Folk often confuse "feels fast"with "is fast".

thepodge - Member
Has anyone here other than Adam designed, built and raced a full sus bike of their own? You may not agree with him (I do) but at least he's putting his ideas into practice and doing some real world, not just armchair, testing
POSTED 2 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST

Has anyone here other than me designed a World Cup DH bike?

Am I the most qualified?

Should everyone else bow to me?

FWIW, I'm with al. I've had more podium results since I got a full sus (Maestro design) than I got on my hardtail despite racing less and being about the same fitness.

Has anyone here other than me designed a World Cup DH bike?

Am I the most qualified?

Should everyone else bow to me?

my gloating comment was deleted

Specialized's patent on the horst link ends next year. I would expect a whole rash of "new" designs apparently perfecting the long existing horst link design 4 bars. Old will suddenly be new !!

Forgot you were here Ade 🙂

VPP or 'dual link' etc lets you do fun things with well triangulated, er, rear triangles.
Extra costs? Some extra bearings? Pretty minimal in the grand scheme of things.

All dual link or vpp are not the same though. And IME it's rate curve that affects ride lots.

The silly thing is that VPP or DW is mechanically the same as a Horst Link. Just with a very short 'chainstay' part.

pointless in my opinion to have the j shaped part in the part of the travel before the sag point as it will hardly get used

I know it's sort of obvious but I hadn't thought of it and that's a really interesting contribution there. Nice.

TT there was a test in a mag early last decade.

unlike that.

so not well established at all then. you sir, have been found guilty of bull**itting.

i am a believer in the KISS ,, ok i have strayed from the path a few times,, and may stray again ,,

The silly thing is that VPP or DW is mechanically the same as a Horst Link. Just with a very short 'chainstay' part.

Yes, see my ETSX comment. All very interesting.

The silly thing is that VPP or DW is mechanically the same as a Horst Link. Just with a very short 'chainstay' part.

so basically VPP/DW etc are all variations on the Horst linkage, designed to get around the patent, then with a bit of BS added to make the consumer think they're improvements when actually they're not...right?!

😀 Not really. The relative lengths of the various parts coupled with how they drive the shock - the rate - control the characteristics of the design. the characteristic of the different design that VPP is most known for is stiffening under pedalling. the predominant characteristic of horst link (someone correct me) is independence from braking forces and the physics behind these distinctions is real. something that cannot be said for my single pivot Yeti ASR which stiffens noticeably under braking making " the back end feel noticeably [u]less[/u] composed braking hard into rocky corners ." which is a perfectly good phrase by the way and a valid observation.

A VPP design without the stiffener bar would just bend all over the place, and a horst link does not need a stiffener bar because the rigid rear triangle is only about 50mm on one side.

"so not well established at all then. you sir, have
been found guilty of bull** itting ."

And you've found what exactly that states a different view?

Oh, yes, now I remember, nothing.

Are you arguing that hardtails are faster than full suss because they feel faster? Do you think a bike with narrower or harder tyres is faster?

Al you made the definitive statement

Unless they are racing, and even then it's well established that full Sus feels slower but is actually faster.

a statement you are unable to substantiate. so you are bull**itting. that's just how it is. just accept it 🙂 c'mon, play the game.

Now, I'm not trying to prove the opposite and haven't tried. that doesn't make you right either...sorry...

I'm still interested though so if you do find that unscientific article you mentioned I'd love to read it.

As for these other areas - tyres etc, perhaps start another thread for that?

Cynic-al. True you can't say that, and I didn't did I? I said I agree with him and he has tried and tested his own theory and design which in my eyes ranks him above other people who have not.

Brant, you're a good designer but I think too many people do bow down to you. Plus that's the second time you've misread and over reacted to one of my posts.

I believe I substantiated Al's statement up there.

In fact, from what I can remember, I see more full sus bikes being ridden to podiums (especially at 24 hour races) these days, so it's not just me. Though I don't turn up to many of the sub 10 hour events these days.

Has anyone here other than me designed a World Cup DH bike?

Which one? Did it win?

I believe I substantiated Al's statement up there.

No mate, you just said you have done better on a full suss and you see more people wining on full suss now [than before?] in enduro. Different thing. Lots of races, Lots of podiums etc.

I don't really care t b h but I am not going to pretend I know the answer either.

yawn another interesting thread turns into playground bickering ,,, oh well we did manage almost two pages of interesting informed comment

give us some more quality comment then ade. it's why i started the thread....i am also pretty fed up with cynical comments putting down other poster's well meaning contributions.

can you tell us a bit more about Linkage?

I like things that go boing.

Of my favourite things that go boing, Yeti's are fun and fast, Ibis's are springy and feel comfy all day, Nicolai's are well put together....

However. There is no other truth than it is more about the rider than the nuts bolts and bouncy bits fitted.

Most of the people i ride with have every suspension type covered in the group. Some are rapid, some are slow, some don't really care about the gubbins, some really really do.

Personally - no system is better than another although on paper they may have more merit as a design to tackle a problem etc.

Hardtails rule anyway, my mmmbop feels like it's on warp drive all the time but I am probably slower on it than on my Mojo. Ultimately i aint racing so it's of no consequence.

If i was then i would focus on my legs rather than my bearings 8)

Anyway. 2p worth etc

"As for these other areas - tyres etc, perhaps start
another thread for that?"

My point is that "feels fast" =/= "fast", which seems to be the basis of your position, so those points are entirely relevant.

give us some more quality comment then

OK, I'll have a go then.
There seems to be two factors being discussed here. Pedal bob and overall suspension performance.

I bought a VPP frame solely to eliminate pedal bob and was impressed with how well it worked. Is there any other linkage that does the same job equally well.
It looks to me like the only linkage that uses the chain tension to counteract the weight on the pedals.
Have I missed something ?

My point is that "feels fast" =/= "fast"

I agree. At last. There is a god.

which seems to be the basis of your position

aaarrrghhh. I haven't said that, this is the first time I've mentioned it, and we, amazingly, agree.

No.

I bought a VPP frame solely to eliminate pedal bob and was impressed with how well it worked. Is there any other linkage that does the same job equally well.

The technical paper on DW link says it achieves the same result without using chain tension, through pivot and linkage configuration. This apparently (and it would) has the added advantage of reducing chain snatch which certainly used to be a problem on VPP v1.

what's chainsnatch then?

what's chainsnatch then?

I've probably used the wrong term, that's what it's called in motorcyling, I think. pedal feedback?

Hold on a minute.
I wasn't even sure what a DW link was, so I found this.
http://www.dw-link.com/physics.html

." When a bicycle accelerates forward, the rider's mass is transferred rearward. Without something to counteract this mass transfer, the rear suspension on most bicycles will compress under acceleration. This mass transfer as a reaction to acceleration is what riders have come to know as "bob."

The acceleration of the bike and rider is proportional to chain tension, which varies with crank rotation, so your acceleration varies like a sine wave, and so does the resulting bobbing of your suspension, caused by this variation in acceleration. This is why you get less bob with spds - there is less difference in power transfer to the bike around the full crank revolution. At least that's how I understand it.

What I can't work out though is whether Dave Weagle means a real mass transfer as in your torso moving back and forth as you pedal, or a theoretical one due to the acceleration.

I am not sure where pushing on the pedals gets factored in. but you're right, the vertical force must have a reaction and that, ultimately mus come through the wheels and suspension....

isnt the rearward movement of the mass actualy a rotation about the rear wheel axle

http://www.bikechecker.com/ follow the link to get your own version of the linkage software,,

Linkage is a powerful and easy-to-use while still well-featured 2D suspension analysis software for Windows systems, focusing on mountain bikes, but also capable of simulating other linkages.
Linkage also provides a user-extensible web library of bike models to help bike-enthusiasts compare different designs or publish their own ones. Linkage comes with data files for many bike designs already on the market (or past models).

Main features:

simulation of all popular full-suspension bike frame systems from single-pivot swingarm to four-bar linkages with additional shock driving linkage ("6-bar linkage")
calculation of linkage forces by a kinematic model, allowing different shock-setups
front fork movement simulation for examining different scenarios
comparisons allowed on diagrams to easily recognize differences between different designs
multi-window working environment with numeric or mouse input
creating new designs quickly using photos
export all results in high-resolution graphical or text formats
calculation of chain related changes, as well as "pedal-kickback"
more than 60 existing designs included

I have used this a lot to compare designs and to design from scratch much quicker than the old string models i used to use back in the late 90's

the pedal feedback is especialy interesting as you can click and drag to move pivot points as well as changing chainring sizes etc

so there you go,,, i will have just ruined your families christmas as you will be glued to your computer screen for the rest of the night comparing vpp bikes with single pivot bikes lots of rubbing chins and going hmmmm

fab 😀 nice one Ade