[Closed] Hardtail frame advice

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What is it?

Oh my dear that is one very nice bike.

Buy that one ^^

That's a [url= http://www.production-privee.com/PBSCCatalog.asp?CatID=1321476 ]Shan[/url].

Lovely looking bike.

Production Privee Shan, that colour sold out according to their website. 650 euro

[url= http://www.2soulscycles.com/index.php/store/hikashop-menu-for-module-145 ]2 Souls Cycles[/url] also look really nice.

456Ti

think I've just ruined my shorts!

That is gorgeous. If I were to buy a nice hardtail frame, that would be right at the top of my list.

Stanton Slackline, Dialled Alpine would be two add to your list.

Oh man that shan is gorgeous. I think I'll be building up a silly hardtail playbike when I graduate.

Chromag or transition trans am. Although the Shan is nice!

He wants a frame significantly lighter than the 456 remember. I don't think any of the above, including the Shan, fit that bill (in fact it seems the Shan is half a lb heavier than the 456!).

If you find a used kinesis maxlight xc120 that would be ideal

[img][url= http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7292/9477341971_6aa24154a6.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7292/9477341971_6aa24154a6.jp g"/> [/img][/url] [url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/99606788@N02/9477341971/ ]Shan[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/99606788@N02/ ]nickcummins1[/url], on Flickr[/img]

I bought a Shan last year, and it's about as good as it gets on a HT, run mine with 1860mm Lyriks (which will have some spitting feathers) but it's properly laugh out loud fun

Brodie ti...think you can get a 2013 for under 1k from their website but no idea of shipping or VAT. Slackline would be ideal if you save another £250?

Cove handjob running 120mm is perfect but I have run 130 revs on it and was great.. I don't understand why anyone wants super slack hardtails. I had a 456 ss for a week and tried not too puke everytime I rode it up a hill before I came to my senses and sold it. Hj is super light and has taken every gap, double and case ive thown at it.

http://www.santacruzbikes.co.uk/chameleon/

I bought a BFe with a similar brief. I've ridden a production privee - pretty similar ride (equally harsh, similar angles) but I think the BFe may be a bit shorter in the top tube*. There's not a lot in it - the PP is arguably nicer-looking, especially in Gulf colours (although the Apple BFe = Mmmmm) and it's very well-finished but I certainly don't believe it's twice as good.

As with a lot of people, I don't really 'get' super-long travel hardtails - Hit a big compression and suddenly the head angle steepens dramatically, and the BB scrapes the floor. 140mm seems OK but whenever I've ridden bikes with more than that, it seems wrong.

*EDIT: Actually the geometry looks very similar, I checked. BB height is a bit lower on the PP.

Shan is a better frame than the Cham IMO Cheaper as well

Thanks for the responses guys, as Glasgodan has pointed out a lot of these aren't light.

Thanks for the heads up on the ti frames that have been mentioned though folks, some of these fit the bill nicely.

As for people saying they don't understand slack bikes etc... well that's fine, however they suit me and the speeds I ride down. I've come from a background of a decade of DH racing and find most regular head angles on bikes too steep for my personal preference.

I ride a banshee Spitfire for most of my more hardcore trail/peak riding and like riding longer/less punishing rides on a slack hardtail bike. I built up an on one summer season a while back and I keep finding myself reaching for it, however it has a few heavy components and the frame weighs a fair bit so I'm going to try an lose about 5 lb's out of it so a good chunk of this needs to come from the frame.

I've got a nice set of 140mm revs on it and get on with them well so the frame that replaces it needs to get on nicely with the fork.

As for the suggestion of a Bfe... my wife rides one, they aren't really my definition of significantly lighter than my on-one.

Chameleon might be worth a look though.... aren't they supposed to be super harsh though?

Voodoo bokor. Running a 140mm fork atm, shoots downhill like nothing else. Cheap too.

Aye the chameleon's a backbreaker. I really think alloy is best though for saving a bit of weight, no matter how chic and retro cool steel is.

What about the ragley marley? It's supposed to be a blast and is nearly a full pound lighter than the 456.

As for the suggestion of a Bfe... my wife rides one, they aren't really my definition of significantly lighter than my on-one.

Fair enough, they're not really significantly lighter. But then nothing is (from this category). I'm not all preachy about the bikes I ride - I don't think the Cotic BFe is anything special. But it is very similar to most things in your category and it's not expensive. Clearly you would have considered it though if you have one in the house!

2.4 kg BFe frame
2.67 kg for the On One
2.5 kg for the PP Shan
1.95 Cotic Soul (which doesn't really count for your intended use)
2.1 kg for SC Chamaeleon

As for the comfort argument, certainly the BFe is a pretty harsh frame, as is the Shan. I wonder if an Alu frame is actually much worse on the bone-shaking front? You;d certainly get more lightness if you went down the alu road. Having said that, I doubt you'll save significant weight in the frame, whatever you go for. If I wanted to save weight, I'd buy a cheaper frame and put the cash I'd saved into lighter components.

What about a c456? Where does that fit in? Obviously they don't look as nice as a good old Steel HT...

I'll second on Kinesis frames, just let my Maxlight XC Pro 3 go, didn't really want to, lovely comfortable, pretty light a very quick, Not sure on head angles etc. I'm sure they'll have one that'll suit.

As long as you're not going to hammer it downhill too hard then maybe a Soul? A mate of mine runs 130mm forks on his which were supplied with the bike from Cotic at the time, so surely and extra 10mm won't make too much difference? It'll slacken things up a tad too.

Cheers for the comparison of weight... hadn't actually looked at the actual weights. Interesting that the soul is lighter than a Chameleon.

I'll have a quick look what a 456 ti weighs and the c456

Yeh I'm budgeting about £400-500 to get the wheels cranks and cassette lighter.

Edit

1.7kg for the 456ti in the 14" so prob about 1.85kg at a guess
1.5kg for the c456... this might be a winner... need to look into the geometry a bit more.

Re- the soul... bb will be too high I think with 140mm, I want slack with a low bb.

Just read a review of the carbon 456, sounds like the back end is uber harsh... need to try and get a test ride on a ti 456

You'll only save significant weight with something in Ti, carbon or aluminium or with a very well optimised 853 frame like the Soul. Compared to the Spitfire most hardtails have high BBs, but with an angleset you can slacken the head angle and drop the BB somewhat. I've been riding a Soul with 140s for the last few years for everything (inc uplift days and enduro races) though I'm not sending gaps or big drops (up to 4' or so) and love it but have a Spitfire arriving in a few weeks. My Soul is built fairly heavy duty (fairly strong, fairly light, not that cheap but not silly expensive, pick all three!) and weighs about 26.5lbs

get a pig frame. i used to have one. don't know why you need super slack angles.. if you want to pelt something DH get a voodoo bokor, wanga, or a pig. or evo 456

Just read a review of the carbon 456, sounds like the back end is uber harsh... need to try and get a test ride on a ti 456

That review is compete moronic bollocks if it's the infamous one on bikeradar.

Just read a review of the carbon 456, sounds like the back end is uber harsh... need to try and get a test ride on a ti 456

Yes it is the bikeradar one... is it really infamous? In which case I need to try a c456 too.

have you ridden a spitfire before you ordered? It won't dissapoint, I've been a serial bike changer for a while until I got mine, it's going no-where but my garage wall when it eventually cracks or snaps.... which in my experience all aluminium frames do eventually. Absolutely in a league of it's own.

That Bikeradar review is hilarious. I ended up pretty soured on my C456 after the finish turned out to be soft as shite and On One lied their way out of the warranty claim, but still, Kesteven must have been on drugs when he wrote that. It's a much softer frame than the steel 456, still has the same slightly shonky geometry but a much better ride all round.

Does a Ragley Ti have a long top tube? I couldn't honestly tell you but they make for an absolute bomber of a hardtail and fit all your criteria nicely, apart from having to find a used one. Proper masterpiece imo.

sounds like steel and probably alu is out. Carbon or ti. don't care what the reviews of the c456 are like, for the money you can't go wrong. it's my cheapest bike in the stable but gets ridden the most with and xt build, fox 140mm floats and Mavic wheels. proper chuck able and light.

[i]aren't they supposed to be super harsh though? [/i]

Yeah, they are supposed to be...They're not massively different to any other ali frame though. They're stiff, fo'shure, and a bit more direct than say a soul...but in comparison to a Bfe or Shan? you'd be hard pushed to tell the difference. Rear stays on the Shan are a bit shaped to make them 'compliant' hur hur....

I used to have a Chameleon and really liked it. I didn't find it that harsh (certainly not much harsher than other hardtails I've had) although I did run big tyres. It seemed to do most things pretty well with 140mm forks. My only issues was that I needed to buy a large because they have such diddy top tubes.

The other hardtail that I had and loved was an original Sub Zero with big forks on it. It was a bit more compliant than my Chameleon and slightly more composed on the downs at the expense of climbing.

Happy C456 owner here. With a slackset you'll end up with something very similar to your SS but a couple of pounds lighter. Why wouldn't you?

The C456 is a pretty comfy ride, but doesn't sound like what you want. The BB's not particularly low IIRC.

If you're open-minded, I'd suggest having a look at the Saracen Zen. I picked one up cheap as a stopgap and it was the best 26" hardtail I've ridden (previously owned a Bfe, C456 and Handjob).

Slack, nice low BB, lovely and light, comfy thanks to the nicely formed 6061 frame.

Bikeradar review here is spot on...
[url= http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/category/bikes/mountain-bikes/product/review-saracen-zen-x-12-46047/ ]http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/category/bikes/mountain-bikes/product/review-saracen-zen-x-12-46047/[/url]

I had to go up a size, usually a medium but the large 19" has great standover and is the perfect length for me (5ft 8in) for XC rides.

Best of all, they are cheap as chips when the frames or full bikes come up on ebay, pinkbike or here. I'm actually selling my frame (I've gone 29er) but I would genuinely recommend one as a real underrated gem.

nickc - Member
I bought a Shan last year, run mine with 1860mm Lyriks

nickc yesterday... 🙂
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I find the 1.8m lyrik soooooo much better in terms of small bump compliance 😆

Just get the new Chameleon. It's the first Santa Cruz in a while that actually looks any good.

I can thoroughly recommend the C456 if weight is a primary factor.

The review from Bike Radar is stark raving bonkers. Mine feels nice and solid with 130mm forks but certainly could go bigger and slacker.

Thanks for the responses folks... plenty to think about her.

David... might try and take a chameleon for a blast, got a mate with one but I've never ridden it and haven't seen him in six months, time for a catch up I reckon!

Saracen... sorry but I can't get past the era when they were a halfrauds special, I'm aware they are turning back into a serious bike company but that era is still lingering like a bad smell for me.

As for the c456... are they well made? I'm slightly worried about sudden catastrophic failure when dealing with carbon frames, are they strong enough to spend a bit of time in the air with the occasional bodged landing?

David... might try and take a chameleon for a blast, got a mate with one but I've never ridden it and haven't seen him in six months, time for a catch up i reckon!

Does he have the revamped model? The old ones were ok, good with short travel forks for jumps/4x and what not. Bit short/high/steep for long travel trail riding I reckon.

The new ones look totally different.

Chromag are worth checking out aswell, pretty expensive but if you've got the cash....

I think his was bought in 2011 so not a new one.

Newer Chams are longer and slacker than the previous model. Nice looking bike.

have you ridden a spitfire before you ordered? It won't dissapoint, I've been a serial bike changer for a while until I got mine, it's going no-where but my garage wall when it eventually cracks or snaps.... which in my experience all aluminium frames do eventually. Absolutely in a league of it's own.

The long story:

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/what-slack-low-tough-140-160mm-full-sus-frame-forks-for-140mm-hardtail-rider

I was in the midst of arranging a testride when I tried a mate's new Whyte G150 and was really impressed with it. Looked up the geometry charts for both and the Spitfire was within a few mm and fraction of a degree, plus it would have a better fork, better shock, be stiffer and have more cunning rear suspension. Gut feeling said "buy!" so I did. Expecting it in a few weeks.

I'm hoping the Spitfire is sufficiently heavily built and I'm sufficiently smooth that it lasts a bloody long time! My last proper crash almost killed/paralysed me so I'm just going with the flow and keeping the risks low...

Every time I see one of these I wonder if I should get it to replace my 456 SS due to the ability to take a good dropper post and a drop in weight... [img] [/img]

Chilled - the carbon frames of the C456 is absolutely bombproof. The paint chips very easily though, o I would get the super raw one if you can.

Mmmbop's are a scary light frame and very capable with a 130/140mm fork. I never found mine harsh with 2.2" conti tyres, although the Blue Pig I have now rides better... and is therefore worth the pound weight penalty (IMHO etc).

I've had full suss for the last 14 years as a main bike but remember the good ol days when I rattled around on a '99 Zaskar LE. That was a hard and very direct ride.

Having bought a C456 frame and built it up with 140mm revs I would say it is nothing like as harsh as the older Zaskar and is a very nice to ride bike.

Before that I had the original Ragley Piglet frame and that was great downhill but rather dead feeling on anything other, and I also has one of the first Marley frames as a replacement from Hotlines when I sent the second Piglet frame back because of paint issues.

Never built the Marley up as I didn't have the right kit at the time, but I'd say it looked very substantially built and a world away from the previous Piglet.

Am still tempted by a Soul or something similar to give steel another chance, but ultimately I'm very happy with the C456 as a hardcore (ish) HT at a good weight.

I'm 17 stone and rattle down things quite hard. It hasn't complained once yet, so I don't think the OP has much to worry about strength wise.