[Closed] Good idea or not? Dutch roundabouts

will require education - to say they wont work because of our drivers is wrong.

they do work.

I agree sadly I just dont see drivers in the UK showing concern for cyclists and I suspect they will just exit roundabouts in the same way as they do now, accelerating hard!

I would like to be proved wrong

I think this is a good idea in theory at least; just not sure whether there's enough space to convert some of our local horror roundabouts.

Seen them yesterday I reckon people will learn how they work.

my only concern is - right now i use the road as per a car because i feel safer there - and not only that .... i dont think using shared paths at 20mph ave and often 25mph is safe....

i dont want to see a holland affair where you MUST use a path if there is one adjacent to the road your traveling. (unless they sort them out and give priority to the cyclist/pedestrians at junctions as per most in holland - or ill be stopping every 30 seconds

will require education

I agree, but a lot of people learn by their mistakes- which in this case could be costly.

a good idea, but i suspect this:

...Look great in theory but in [s]London[/s] Britain?! I can just see drivers not getting it and exiting roundabouts taking out cyclists in the process.

Or, slamming their anchors on at the last moment and carnage as everyone ploughs in the back of them.

but i would love to be wrong.

Yeah, a lot of trust in the motorist required here... If ever "Will I Die" was an appropriate tag line.

I can see drivers getting it wrong but also cyclists becoming blase to the threat of a ton of metal collecting them.

If their roundabouts are anything like their ovens then no thank you very much.

I see a long line of cyclist waiting to cross a moving line of cars exiting the roundabout and refusing to respect cyclist right of way and other cyclists frustrated (as above) at being forced to use paths when they could make more progress mixing with the traffic and looking after themselves.
Those that are more confident assuming rightly that they have right of way will be in danger from those who dont see them or choose to ignore them or think they can beat them.

All pessimistic I know but I can only see carnage and we know who will come off worst in this.

(unless they sort them out and give priority to the cyclist/pedestrians at junctions as per most in holland - or ill be stopping every 30 seconds

That's exactly what they were talking about introducing when I read it yesterday.

I agree, but a lot of people learn by their mistakes- which in this case could be costly.

Doubt that's the case really.

Great idea in theory, but I think somehow road-user attitudes need to change before drastic changes like this. Otherwise there'll at best be more road-rage, at worse, more fatalities.

Basically, we need to wait a generation or two, assuming things start now. Much the same as British society in general... 🙁

Doubt that's the case really.

I'm just imagining the scenario of a driver not from the local area arriving at the roundabout for the first time, they've not seen any local advertising about the new style roundabout and they speed towards the exit. The driver see's the zebra crossing with no pedestrians on it, there are unfamiliar markings before the zebra crossing which don't tell the driver to stop for cyclists, then bang!

 

To make it work would require a change in attitude of cyclists as well as drivers. Dutch city cycling is very different from what you get in London - in the Netherlands it's mostly sit-up-and-beg bikes moving fairly slowly; I've never seen a MAMIL in a Dutch city. So whilst I can see this working for Boris bikers and the like, the cyclist-in-a-hurry turning right isn't going to go the long way round when he could just cut across, even if there was enforced lane use. I can only see this ending badly.

There is a good blog called view from the cycle path or something..by a Brit living in Netherlands. He writes well about traffic and bikes. One consistent theme he stresses is that just because its Dutch it doesn't mean it's good, the Dutch have been constantly tweaking the way they do things over the years..they use quite different methodology in different areas, and stuff over there is tried and dropped if it doesn't work...shared space is a example of this..they tried it, and discovered it was bollocks. From what I have gathered from reading that and copenhagenize blog is that embedding cycling isn't about putting in bits of hard engineering at a few problem spots...it's designing an entire transport system for a community.

http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2013/04/the-netherlands-sets-best-example-but.html

I am currently living in the Nederlands and the roundabouts work really well, the vast majority of motorists observe the rules of allowing cyclist priority, although you do get a tiny minority who like to push it. The only thing missing from the TRRL test roundabout is lashings of red paint denoting the cycle path, it may seem trivial as they are already marked with white lines, but the red paint also highlights a demarcation that the road crosses over the cycle path and not that the cycle path crosses over the road, like this: [img] [/img]
There are a lot of good ideas that could be implemented on UK roads that would not require large scale re-modelling of present roads, simple things like a few gallons of paint and some education for both drivers and cyclists would make the roads safer. I'm not looking forward to returning to the UK, I have been spoilt here with a transport network that makes my cycling commutes safer whilst it does not impact too much on the motorists journey times. It is a way of life here and the sooner the UK can implement some of the ideas and educate all road users the better IMHO.

don't know if anyone saw the report on this on the BBC this morning - car exiting roundabout nearly took out the cyclist, who just stopped in time, car, even in a demo for the report had no intention of stopping...

We have large areas of 'shared space' locally and in no way shape or form is it shared - cars take priority everyone else has to wait for them, even on the pedestrianized areas, the driver just assume priority - it will take a lot of retraining an education of drivers for it to work but there are drivers out there who just won't accept it.

As Higthepig says "its a way of life" same in Sweden Denmark and Finland from my experience.

A roundabout like this will/should be well publicised, become well known, a place where car drivers and cyclist know what is expected, so the first one or two of these will be successful in black spots. Thus most of us will be aware of it and treat it the right way.

The odd person who comes across it unexpected is a small risk, they may not know what to do, but if they publish enough in the media about it, awareness should rise enough that people safely use it.

If their roundabouts are anything like their ovens then no thank you very much.

Is the right answer.

There's a [url= https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=salford&ll=53.496854,-2.275672&spn=0.006446,0.021994&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&hnear=Salford,+United+Kingdom&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.497198,-2.276775&panoid=oYynU0xr1vF1HSkD4SbPiA&cbp=12,93.6,,0,4.39 ]roundabout[/url] on the way to work where there is a zebra crossing on the exit, similar position to the bike crossings on there ^^ I see a fair bit of sharp braking when someone exiting the roundabout spots a pedestrian crossing, dunno what the actual accident stats are for peds v cars and cars rear ending each other tho.

A move towards dutch style cyclie infrastructure? Sounds good to me assuming they don't do a half arsed job of it that's worse than vehicular cycling.

Can't see it working with the levels of traffic density we have in the UK, it will just cause gridlock.

I think we have to start somewhere and they are certainly better than the current round-a-bouts. Saw a near miss on a round-a-bout with a cyclist, car assumed the cyclist was going left like the car, the cyclist was not.

I can see this style working in the town I live in. We have a lot of round-a-bouts and traffic lights either side on them. It may not work for all towns/cities but we need to start now.

The one advantage of this system, it will turn large multi-lane roundabouts into slow, small, single-lane roundabouts with surrounding cycle lane. This leaves the roundabout itself perfectly safe to cycle on, negating the need for the surrounding cycle lane.

Hope they are better than their rudders. 😯

I like the idea but can't see it working in the UK, it would be like clay pigeon shooting for audi drivers, what with a cyclist lining up in front of them

They look great for areas with low traffic density. All the pictures show one or two cars, if the traffic was that light then there's no need for specific measures, put proper traffic in and all of a sudden there's gridlock.

i dont want to see a holland affair where you MUST use a path if there is one adjacent to the road your traveling

This is a big issue for me. Being forced to use cyclepaths makes any kind of proper road cycling next to impossible.

And yes, on small quiet roundabouts cyclists can take the primary position and stop drivers from buzzing past them.

Spend £390m on education before fancy roundabouts ffs.

"This is a big issue for me. Being forced to use cyclepaths makes any kind of proper road cycling next to impossible."

It is not an issue in holland the facilitys rule - lived in den helder for 6 months and LOVED cycling round there even on my crappy 99 quid folder

Its a huge issue here though.

It was a big issue for me in Germany where there were cyclepaths everywhere. Entrances and exits crossing all over the place, then bumpy pavements and grannies - 20mph was reckless in those circumstances.

When I was in the Netherlands about two months ago out of the THOUSANDS of BSO bikes I saw every day, I only saw one lycra clad road bike rider, and he was riding in the roads and not on the bike lanes anyway.

I expect theyre all out enjoying the breath taking country side views and much emptier suburbs.

With recent research showing UK drivers miss seeing at least 1 in 5 cyclists this roundabout seems to me like a dreadful idea until education, attitudes and expectations change dramatically.

I did use some (but not all) of the urban cycleways, but almost all country roads where I was in Germany had a separated cycleway/footpath off the road. This was great for pootlers, but it went right up against people's property frontages, most of which had walls and hedges. So you ended up having to slow significantly every time you passed one or risk hitting someone's bonnet as they nose out completely unsighted. Also applied to junctions too.

They did research in Germany on this subject and concluded that segregation was overall more dangerous than not.

I saw a few cyclists on the roads, most of whom were proper fast, and quite a few semi-quick recreational types on the cycleways.

I'm unsure. Yes the UK has this car-is-king attitude. Now we can deal with that forever, and if we do that, then these roundabouts won't work, nor will lots of other potentially good ideas. Or, we can get into trying to change it, in which case things like this aren't just maybe a good idea, they're essential- they create more situations where motorists are told unequivocally "bike is king". It'd need education and enforcement, and it'd need to be widespread.

Easy to be cynical but if you were to propose zebra crossings for the first time tomorrow, most of the arguments against these things would apply to that too.

German cycling infrastrucure is often pretty much an afterthought or retrofit too, though, much like UK. Just there's much more of it. And certainly around here the town-to-town paths are often gravel thru a forest (much like a canal towpath).

design and concept is not the issue, it's execution.
they have retrofit bike segregation in parts of London and it's just a confusing mess.
it's also not widespread enough that vehicles are aware of it and therefore lots of them aren't expecting it.

may be better served on bigger, higher speed junctions than on tight city streets.

[img] [/img]

Having said all that I'm in favour of cycle specific options for certain difficult junctions. But you do see that anyway fairly frequently.

That Bloomsbury cycle route is an abomination whoever designed it campaigned for it or implemented needs a stern talking to.

It's just painfully slow, in fact the slowest part of my commute.

I'd rather not be segregated from traffic I'd like to be able to just ride on the road with respect from other road users.

car is king for sure here

i suggested on a local radios face book page that instead of moaning about the roadworks around here(an hour to travel 4 miles by car) that 4 miles didnt really need a car and that youd be as quick if not quicker walking or you could cycle or take a bus

WOAH betide me..... surprised i didnt have a lynch mob at my door that night.

Could they not just put sensors on the cycle lanes so that you get a red light on the road when there's a cyclist about to pass through? Or maybe not a red light, just a flashing "cyclist about to pass has priority/ROW" similar to those ones you get that flash up the speed you are doing for motorists..Can't be a big leap to make them sense cyclists.

There's a theory that the last people you should ask about cycle infrastructure are those who are already riding on the road. By definition they've found a way of coping with the status quo.

Drivers will learn. Zebra crossings and traffic lights were new once - I'd be amazed if there wern't "that'll never work" comments about them as well.

That Bloomsbury cycle route is an abomination whoever designed it campaigned for it or implemented needs a stern talking to.

It's just painfully slow, in fact the slowest part of my commute.

Full history of that route documented [url= http://www.voleospeed.co.uk/2011/07/little-bit-of-amsterdam-in-london.html ]here[/url]. I've used it and the problem is not the concept but the volume of cyclists it now carries. It should have been built wider BUT it's a proper segregated cycle track with priority over side roads. It's not really a problem to cruise for a bit is it?

Don't confuse peak speed with journey time. My daily commute is almost the same on a brompton and a road bike as a significant part of the journey is spent stationary at traffic lights. If you're passing through Zone 1 I suspect yours is the same. Give cyclists a 'green wave', permission to turn left on red and priority in more locations and your journey will be quicker even if you aren't able to sprint quite so often.

I'd rather not be segregated from traffic I'd like to be able to just ride on the road with respect from other road users.

Nice idea but unfortunately even with respect mistakes will happen. [url= http://kenningtonpob.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/making-soft-flesh-and-heavy-metal-mix.html ]Yesterday's casualty in Kennington[/url], on a cycling "super-shitway" no less. Both cyclist and bus appear to have been going straight on but the "cycle lane" is just blue paint down the side of the bus lane so doesn't offer much in the way of separation.

simons_nicolai-uk - Member
There's a theory that the last people you should ask about cycle infrastructure are those who are already riding on the road. By definition they've found a way of coping with the status quo.

Probably an element of truth to that, personally I fail to see half the issues that people have with the road. probably due to 20 odd years of just getting on with it and being very comfortable in traffic.

Raouligan - Member

I'd rather not be segregated from traffic I'd like to be able to just ride on the road with respect from other road users.

Ah, another dreamer. 🙂
One day, Raouligan, one day.