[Closed] Glentress Peel Centre update

There'll be someone happy somewhere that they've created 'new' jobs and businesses.

Northwind - Member

That seems familiar... Hang on... <searches> You said much the same in the last thread about this, and Emma responded:

"And as for chasing folk away that do TCL at the venue-rubbish-unless you were the guy that set up in my cafe with your flipchart and marker pens or the guy that started running a how to fix your bike on the decking and put your oily muddy wheels on my tables that folk have to eat off-yes then I probably did chase you away cos you never had the manners to even ask if you could use my cafe as your TCL venue-thats the cafe that I have to pay a rent for-and if you come into the venue and earn a pot of cash out of it and wear out the trails at the same time it would be nice if you put something back because it costs money to maintain those trails that sustain both our businesses. And if anyone is looking for a TCL provider try Brian Salvona-he's a really nice guy that runs courses at Glentress."

But you didn't respond at all then. Want to respond now?

That's cool- you never responded at all last time which can mean various things so I was interested to hear your side.

Mibbee thinking, she was thinking, I was someone else. Still reading that response'chalkboard/blackboard thing, bike repair/maintenance on the decking of the cafe/oil on seats etc? I know some people can be quite farward/take the piss, but I'd take it being gospel with a pinch of salt.

were at the very early stages of trying to get a trail centre up and running in angus(feasibilty study just finished)...all this is very worrying as we'll be trying to generate funds based on a viable business plan that we can sell to a trail centre operator....and as for the FC,theyve been steadfast since the beginning with offers of no money(as theyve spent it on the peel)

i concur with eveything mark at tbc says,(hes bloody eloquent!)ive ridden at glentress long before they had trails/cafe/parking etc and its a proper day out now due to the facilities....

whatever anyone thinks of E/T and the hub you cant deny they havent put anything into the sport...whenever im their im always impressed that theyre riding with kids usually/doing skills sessions etc...didnt they start the kids mtb club down there? isnt it the biggest in scotland with a waiting list to get in?

im not sure how much development locally the new corporate supplier will apply!

i like tjs idea of direct action but i fear theyres a lot of keyboard warriors here and it may not come to fruition....

cycleworlduk - Member

i like tjs idea of direct action but i fear theyres a lot of keyboard warriors here and it may not come to fruition....

well we will see won't we. Lots of talk and outrage but will there be any action? Its all gone rather quiet

So from a search, it looks like 'CV' means 'Carron valley'. Can anyone point me to the thread with the background - I can't seem to find it.

What would you suggest TJ - any ideas for what might be done?

The obvious thing is to demo outside the new cafe and to attempt to divert all the custom to Emma and Tracys old place. Blockade of the new cafe as well. With no supplies and no customers it will not be viable.

Needs people prepared to stand up and be counted and to actually put the time and effort in.

As Emma and Tracy have a while left on their lease then there is actually some point in doing this.

Edit - the other thing to do is put pressure on the people who get the contract for teh new cafe. Let them know that boycotts and blockades will be organised - it might put them off taking up the contract once they realise the depth of feeling.

However - you need a decent sized group od people that are prepared to put the work in. A bit more than internet maoners

Bit harsh on whomever the new folk might be, presumably they've won fair and square. Surely all that would need to be done is keep using the Hub whilst they are there. Wonder if the new folks knew the situation with the Hubs lease when they applied. They might not last long if things are very quiet. Then again if it's raining and the Hub is full will people forget their principles and go to the new place?

maybe unpopular thought, but what if the new Cafe is better than the Hub, like better food, warmer, cleaner, bigger, cheaper.

I'm not saying it will be, but surely the people should be given a chance. Sure, if it's rubbish then all the above points are fair enough, but if not ?

[i]Blockade of the new cafe as well. With no supplies and no customers it will not be viable.[/i]
LOL! What do we want? Egg on Toast! When do we want it? Now!

TJ - can't your friends in high places (y'know the ones that told you that The Hub weren't going to bid) tell you who has won?

ninenailspete - see http://www.carronvalley.org.uk/

TJ - i dont think a blockade is in the spirit of things... plus the students are all busy elsewhere 🙂

It's not necessarily the contract winner that is a problem - it is more like the FC from my perspective. Has there been any consultation or market research carried out as to what people actually want to see and spend there money at? There may have been but we missed it.

I can see the FC point of view as well in all this. Tiso/Alpine type companies offer a whole complete slick package in a shiny packet. It's easy to be tempted by big things and high concept plans and proposals.

The concern for us is the size of market for this operation, sure more people may now chose to go along to GT when the MegaPlex is built but really, why do people and newcomers not go now? I suspect it ain't about the perceived lack of facilities or unfriendliness.

There are good facilities as it stands and also a lot of good spirits and friendliness. Will a new operator add significantly to the growth of our sport and hobby?

There are good facilities as it stands and also a lot of good spirits and friendliness. Will a new operator add significantly to the growth of our sport and hobby?

or an LBS being impacted by an Evans or other big chain.

could argue it's progress and the Hub, which is a few stuck together portacabins that are way past their best, has come to the end of it's useful life ?

FWIW I am a fan of Emma and Tracy and the Hub cafe, having ridden there for 10 yrs, eaten loadsa cakes and spoken with them both on a few occasions - just tyring to see it from a different perspective...

maybe unpopular thought, but what if the new Cafe is better than the Hub, like better food, warmer, cleaner, bigger, cheaper.

I'm not saying it will be, but surely the people should be given a chance. Sure, if it's rubbish then all the above points are fair enough, but if not ?

That sort of reasonable argument won't get you very far, away with you man 😉

hey rich - you know you agree with me though !!!

thebikechain - from a report published 5 years ago:

A larger permanent central facility is proposed (the Hub is now over capacity) – a private building in twelve acres of land adjacent to Glentress has just been purchased for this purpose and will be converted, but only after market consultation;
• The new central facilities will cater for all market needs – redressing the balance towards walkers and other recreation users. This facility will open in 2007.

I think that was about the extent of the public consultation. Did any of us who read that at the time really imagine this would soak up circa £10m of cash?

The point I was trying to make earlier is that this was penned within the context of a whole raft of recommendations for development throughout Scotland. A debate was never entered into - FC senior managers (note Geoff: SENIOR MANAGERS) quietly pursued the Peel project whilst pretty much leading several leading trail groups down a complete dead end.

This did not need to be an either or scenario...

 

I do,

I'm also a fan of the Hub and the fine selction of cakes and nachos. I also appreciate that Emma and Tracy may have done a lot to make Glentress the place it is but ulitmately I'll still use GT if the new place is crap.

I'm not going there for the cake.

sorry to go OT.

cycleworlduk - is the AMBTA feasibility study looking at FCS managed land only or other landowners too?

The point I was trying to make earlier is that this was penned within the context of a whole raft of recommendations for development throughout Scotland. A debate was never entered into - FC senior managers (note Geoff: SENIOR MANAGERS) quietly pursued the Peel project whilst pretty much leading several leading trail groups down a complete dead end.

That may well be true - I don't know, despite suggestions to the contrary, I neither work for nor represent the FC.

But, whatever the history, should it mean that any development at GT should treated with disdain? For the sport to flourish and all the other health, social, environmental benefits etc., to be realised, the priority has got to be about getting more folk on bikes.

My personal opinion is that if a spangly visitor centre brings in families that previously wouldn't consider going, then it has to be a good thing. I have nothing against the current Hub operation, from my limited knowledge of it, the owners provide a good service to the current customers. I just think that a bit of vision is required (and has perhaps been demonstrated by FC) in pushing through a new visitor centre which should put more bums on seats and bikes on trails.

Of course, this opens the can of worms around whether more folk at Gentress is a good idea in the round. I can understand that some are going to be aggrieved about greater traffic and not being able to go at the speed they choose to in some parts, but that will have to be factored into the development plan for GT and beyond. How about this resulting in better facilities at Innerleithen for the gnarlier customer?

FC, do of course have to go into this with their eyes open and learn lessons from other similar developments (Ratho anyone?). If they do make a go of it, and there are plenty of decent operational managers within FC, then IMHO it can only benefit mountain biking in the Peebles valley and Scotland as a whole.

Just to be clear - I wasn't suggesting direct action was the right thing to do. I was suggesting that the armchair warriors could do this if they felt that miffed - actually do something rather than sit at their keyboards moaning. Ie put up of shut up

I wouldn't say that it's fair to assume that the people running the new cafe will do a better or worse job the the current lot. It really is one of those things that we'll just have to wait and see about.

I also dont get the god like status that is awarded to the food that they supply at the hub. It's no different in quality to stuff you get in any decent cafe.

Maybe Tracy and Emma should form a parternship with a newly re-formed CVDG and establish a 'new wave' of biking facilities in Scotland, on private land! That would show them dastardly FC chappies, now, wouldn't it!

After all, they know betterer than FCS! 🙂

Kit - try and keep OT eh? You seem obsessed with CV.

Maybe Tracy and Emma

I hope you dont find yourself in the situation where the future of your business is uncertain whilst someone makes a few cheap shots on an internet forum, thinly disguising them as humour using smileys.

🙂 (naturally)

geoffj - Member

"Of course, this opens the can of worms around whether more folk at Gentress is a good idea in the round. I can understand that some are going to be aggrieved about greater traffic and not being able to go at the speed they choose to in some parts"

My worry's sustainability, the red and blue are already armoured up pretty much as heavily as they can be round most of their length and still get knocked to bits. That much traffic really restricts what you can build and how you build it- without more options to spread the traffic it'll be a problem. You see it already obviously but increase the pressure on the trails and it'll only get worse.

Okay my turn for my ramblings, sorry they are so long

I am a big fan of what E&T have done down there in developing a facility for us bikers from the pressure suit brigade all the way through to family day trippers. They have worked hard on the café the shop and clubs and events and they have been responsible of making what we see today as GT.

The FC want to encourage more walkers etc I can understand this the forest is for more than us bikers however they have invested all this money in the building but I haven’t seen anything being spent on the walking trails. Go the Whinlatter and look at the variety of walking trails for all abilities, where is that at GT. Whinlatter works as a multi discipline centre as its on the Lake District and has lots of holiday makers on its door step to attract it also has a Go APE to attract people as well. GT is in the borders not a major holiday destination and who from Edinburgh and Glasgow is going to drive past Dobbies to get to GT to walk a couple of trails and eat cake, theres not even a garden centre there.

For me we are lucky in Scotland we all have a vast variety of places to ride from trail centres to back country trails. When I choose to go to GT its for several reasons the trails being one the café another, however I’m not fussed if its in some portacabin I have my coffee or in some glitzy building. This I think is one of the problems for the FC most of us bikers the, Audi drivers excluded, don’t care where we stop, we care more about the people and the food. This is what E&T recognised and provided all those years ago.

I think the FC have a grand plan for GT to make it into the borders premier tourist attraction which is great but there numbers are way to optimistic 300,00 and growing that’s 821 people per day. Given that is not open everyday due to snow that’s a huge number of people to go through every day that its open. FC have split their numbers 200,000 bikers 100,00 walkers. I cant see them getting 100,00 walkers (273 per day) I hope whoever wins the tender hasn’t based there business plan on those numbers otherwise it might not go to well for them.

As for what we can do, I don’t think picketing the new peel centre is not the right thing to do, I think we do two things firstly we vote with out feet and support the Hub park in the old car park and use their facilities, buy the coffee and cake. This is the best way of showing the FC what we want. Then secondly we can write to our local MPS/ MSPS and the FC complaining about the decision. Who knows if the new business cant survive the summer things might change for the better.

Skipping through the posts I really feel for you lot. Having an incompetent FS/FC is just awful. All the trails they build and maintain for you - a terrible situation. Now they are meddling with the places where you eat? That's just too cruel.

We are lucky over here (Ireland) as we get to build our own trails (sometimes they don't even get demolished) and we get to bring a sandwich, banana and some fizzy pop with us.

Good post EURO, put's it into context.

Nick 8)

Surrounded By Zulus - Member
I wouldn't say that it's fair to assume that the people running the new cafe will do a better or worse job the the current lot. It really is one of those things that we'll just have to wait and see about.

I also dont get the god like status that is awarded to the food that they supply at the hub. It's no different in quality to stuff you get in any decent cafe.

+1

A blockade do you think the hub would keep the protesters fed and watered all day ?????

Not sure I've heard anyone give the food god like status. But it's decent enough stuff and at a reasonable price. I've paid more for worse elsewhere. I don't see the numbers at GT increasing much more. I think a lot of us probably use it less than we used to, probably in part down to its popularity. Will be interesting to see what the visitor centre is going to be like that is going to make it attractive to other users. I think they should have invested more money into the trails to try and bring more MTBers and money in.

I like the hub, ok its expensive but so are most cafes in the hills these days.
On the odd occasion I visit Glentress every year I will continue using the hub while it is open, and once it passes I will probably use the new one for a post ride coffee and cake - I will however go in there covered head to foot in mud, just to remind them of why this place is popular.

I have been like that in the Hub and have never been moaned at.

It is sad, those ladies have done so much for the trail centre, that they did not get the tender.

Very interesting to read this - I used to ride at GT in 1989/1990 when i lived in the 'burgh and woudl ride to and from there. Facilities back then were, erm, there were midges and a gate from memory and some shingle roads. I went back last year and rode there twice while on holiday and spent a bit of time observing the business sides of it as it interested me having read a bit about what was going on.

It's almost become a victim of its own success and FC obviously are under pressure to 'share' the success of the location. I'd be interested to see how the creation of hiking mixes with walking, it would probably be better to invest in some more trails and divert walkers to less 'sanitised' areas. But then people are generally lazy these days and want it all on a plate (no pun intended there) - easy parking for the Audi, easy but challenging trails to walk on/bike on (but nothing dangerous except well signposted dangerous bits with no risk), a good cafe that serves plentiful cheap food - organic if possible, hot showers, day spa. And no extra charges for parking or infrastrcuture.

Quite honestly its the users that need to take a long hard look at themselves - your expectations of what you 'get' are out of whack. Splurging 10mill on a 'visitors centre' is clearly the end of some form of ulterior motive or utterly crazy business plan. If they seriously think those numbers will come I would eat my hat. Whats the roading authority got on its business plan for infrastrcuture to/from Peebles/GT - does it support these numbers.

As a long time tenderer for projects all I can say is you win some you lose some. Sometimes the ones you lose you do for a reason and if they have projections that you think are utter errrse then all that will happen is the business will fail and everyone will lose.

Interesting, but then I'm used to our trail centres here where a tap is a bonus ! (And I'm not complaining).

If they are going to try and encourage walkers, horsie folk, families etc to go to Glentress then I can see lots of trouble ahead. With the access laws as they are this will surely lead to all manner of collisions. People walking up biking trails etc.

If they are going to try and encourage walkers, horsie folk, families etc to go to Glentress then I can see lots of trouble ahead. With the access laws as they are this will surely lead to all manner of collisions. People walking up biking trails etc

Hmmm, tis possible I agree; but as Glentress used to be a popular place for walkers and horse riders who possibly feel they've been pushed away, maybe they're trying to re-dress the balance?

There are still horse and walkers trails there. It will take management but its not impossible to keep 'em separate

There's still walkers too. But tbh I'm not really sure why you'd go walking at GT, it's crowded and the paths are nothing special. It'll take more than a cafe to change that I think

But tbh I'm not really sure why you'd go walking at GT

Wouldn't be my cup of tea either for walking, but I do know of (older) people who have stopped going there because of the bikes; they can be a vocal lot.

There are still horse and walkers trails there. It will take management but its not impossible to keep 'em separate

agree

Kit - try and keep OT eh? You seem obsessed with CV.

I'm not going to get any further involved in my opinion of CV, so yes, let's get back on topic:

I hope you dont find yourself in the situation where the future of your business is uncertain whilst someone makes a few cheap shots on an internet forum, thinly disguising them as humour using smileys.

Tracey and Emma have known for (counts fingers) ooh, probably 4 or 5 years that they would have to tender for the cafe. And unless they were phenomenally dim (which I seriously doubt they are), they would not have assumed for one minute that their continued business was a shoe-in. Ergo, they will have made contingency plans, looked at alternatives and so on. Personally, I'm sorry to see them go too, but I think they were afforded a spectacular opportunity by the FC at the right time to develop GT, and as such their success is as much to do with the FC's efforts as theirs (that I can see), and as such are in the position to dictate how the forest develops. If they believe that the best way forward is without the Hub, then that's their call.

There's no reason why E & T can't take their business model and apply it elsewhere, so while I was being flippant in my comment about them/CVDG in partnership, is there not potential to find new partners to develop trails elsewhere in the country and demonstrate that they don't need the FC to establish a quality destination?

Alternatively, Innerleithen is crying out for a cafe and decent toilets, so maybe they could negotiate a deal to provide services there instead?

>Quite honestly its the users that need to take a long hard look at themselves - your expectations of what you 'get' are out of whack. Splurging 10mill on a 'visitors centre' is clearly the end of some form of ulterior motive or utterly crazy business plan. If they seriously think those numbers will come I would eat my hat.<

I agree - in my view this is taking the 'outdoor experience' in completely the wrong direction. The private sector could have built a fanstastic building for a fraction of the cost and we'd still have had change left over to beef up the trail network and deliver facilities elsewhere. Facilities which could actually have made a real difference to net mtb participation...

In my view this is a small Tourism project which has simply got out of hand - it wont produce a net gain in mtb participation because there's a mobilty issue with the location.

[i]I'm not going to get any further involved in my opinion of CV[/i]
Great news. I was worried I might have to correct you for a third time on the crap you've trotted out twice previously.

Don't believe all you've heard from your source. Might turn out to be as unreliable as TJs...

:), natch.

Heather Bash - Member

"In my view this is a small Tourism project which has simply got out of hand - it wont produce a net gain in mtb participation because there's a mobilty issue with the location."

I tend to think of these things in terms of Laggans... The original spend for Laggan Wolftrax was £250000 including the overspend. That doesn't include the upper red. So you look at money spent elsewhere and go **** ME that's 40 Laggans. Even if it's ace, is it as ace as 40 Laggans?

Great news. I was worried I might have to correct you for a third time on the crap you've trotted out twice previously

I'm more than happy to be corrected on any misinformation, however you can't correct me on my [i]opinion[/i], marty.