[Closed] Rant.... Hope bars made in tawian....give me a free headset....

Whats the problem with Taiwan?

Handlebars are a different production method to pretty much everything else they do. So it's no surprise, I expect the same is also true of the new thompson bars.

Whats the problem with Taiwan?

What's wrong with supporting British manufacturing when you have a chance?

I agree, no 'problem' with taiwan, 90% of my bike is made there. The problem many are having (i dont have this problem) is Hopes obsessive 'made in the uk' mantra this flys in the face of.

Thompson are reportedly buying / bought in equipment to bend bars..

Probably because the machinery needed to make bars is not the machinery they have and quite expensive. Maybe they are testing the market before they invest?

I would think they buy in seals and brake line etc. I know it's not quite the same thing as the main item though. I wonder how the seat post sales are doing, I don't see much mention of them.

Not much mention of the pedal either which is quite expensive...

I am not sure a cnc tube bender would scratch the surface of their 250k cnc machines they show off in their video they have 5 of.

Machinery to draw the tubing i am sure would be though.

What's wrong with supporting British manufacturing when you have a chance?

With the exception of Renthal, does anyone make handlebars in the UK? There isn't a bicycle handlebar manufacturing industryt o supourt! It's not like everything else they make which can be knocked out of a CNC mill or lathe is it? It'd be a whole new set of machines to make one product (and the machines may well be made elswhere and not require a huge ammoutn of skilled opperator input).

I'm all for suppourting British 'industry', but the value added is in the design industry. The day we have Tiawan designed Bitish made components then you know the economy's hit the shitter.

Could be worse they could be made in Yorkshire.

I don't really have much idea of what goes into an aluminium handlebar but as it's a new product line it would be a bit risky to buy all the machines in and then learn how to use them etc instead of going to a company with all the machines and years of experience manufacturing bars and QCing of them.

When I got my Prince Albert (fnar fnar) frame from Dialled Bikes I noticed that they were designed in the UK but manufactured in the far east somewhere.

I do try my hardest to at least buy stuff that has some link to being British no matter how tenuous it is.

Those same people seem to have missed the bit where they were going to produce a carbon version made in the UK.

Sell a load of Taiwanese made handlebars in order to fund getting into making carbon bits in house. Seems sound to me.

Rant? 0/10
Only good thing was the completely off track postscript.

The day we have Tiawan designed Bitish made components then you know the economy's hit the shitter.

I would like to say that i could not ever see this happening but who knows.

There is of course good reason for Hope to outsource bar production but you do have to wonder if it is a good move for their image when they are so pro uk manuafacture.

In a dirt article they spoke about how hope won a business report which suggested moving some or all of production to taiwan and that they promptly binned it... attitudes changing in the company?

completely off track postscript.

Jeff Jones uses frame builders in Taiwan for his steel frames.
Now I'm not picky but JJ REALLY is.
Good enough for him, good enough for me :O)

Those same people seem to have missed the bit where they were going to produce a carbon version made in the UK.

I was wondering about that.

OP needs a link to the article/source as well as the headset one. 🙂

[img] [/img]

HD (Heavy Duty) Hope Techbar – available May 2013

Designed for Downhill / Freeride Use
Manufactured from 7050 Aluminium
Shot peened for increased fatigue life
800mm Wide in 10, 20 and 30mm rises
31.8mm clamping diameter with 70mm of width for ultra wide stems
Weights from 290 grams (10mm rise version)
5 degree upsweep, 7 degree backsweep
Optimised wall sections and distinctive shape allows for increased strength in higher stress areas
Super stiff construction for increase stability and improve control
Positioning grids for setup of components
Cut-off marks to reduce handlebar width

http://wideopenmag.co.uk/news/17549/first-look-new-hope-techbar-handlebar

An exclusive, Hope handlebars. Not made by Hope but next in the production line to Renthal. An exclusive, Hope handlebars. Not made by Hope but next in the production line to Renthal

A quote from Moonglu's Facebook page, are they saying the bars are made by the same folks that make Renthal MTB bars?

 

blimey, there's a lot of white and other visual noise on those bars.

or [img] [/img]

It makes a lot of sense. Lots and lots of people want a Hope 'cockpit' and the obvious hole in the line up is bars. Most folk don't get a monkeys where the bars are made, but care deeply that they say 'Hope' on them.

The product manager wouldn't be doing his/her job properly if it didn't get into bars.

well, reading that it seems renthal dont make some bars in the uk either...

Better made in Taiwan than China...

What's wrong with supporting British manufacturing when you have a chance?

Hope make ugly looking stuff that doesn't work as ell as other manufacturers. With the exception of hubs.

mm, not sure the bottom design will catch on 😀

They are a bit in your face for my tastes but very interested.

All they need to do now is bring out a Reverb/Lev beating dropper post and I can see a lot of people running all Hope finishing kit. I guess with the drive train plans they will have a good % of a bike.

Frames, brakes and hubs on our bikes are made in the UK. I can hardly say it's supporting the UK bike industry, as all but one item (except pads) were purchased second hand...

Christ 790mm, do they come with Mop heads as standard

They're 'orrible.

crankrider - Member
Thompson are reportedly buying / bought in equipment to bend bars..

Iirc only early Thomson bars will be made in the US. Once the design is settled they are going to transfer production to Taiwan

"Cut-off marks to reduce handlebar width "

Ideal because if you can't use a tape measure you bound to be safe with a saw 🙂

If you are Chinese Taiwan is China.

Did Hope, start off getting their rotors made in the Far East, then move production to the UK once they had tooled up ?

800mm width? No singletrack riding with those - My Havens are 711mm according to specs & they're wide enough that a couple of local singletrack track spots require the bike to be steered through with a steer from one side to the other along with a lean, to ease the bars through as the bars are wider than the gap.
Can't see the issue with made in Taiwan - most stuff is these days. I buy for how well the kit works, or at a budget, not for where it is made.
Do you drive a British made car too?

For the UK market, whilst not everyone is bothered by it, the fact the manufacture in the UK is a selling point for many purchasers. Once that is lost, they no longer have that point to make them stand out.

Think of Marks and Spencers - their target market loved the fact that their beige slacks were made in the UK. They then decided better margins were elsewhere and sold non UK goods. They then lost much of their loyal fan base and they did not have the right image to attract enough new custom.

If I was given the choice between a UK made Cotic Soul and a Taiwan made one, then I would pay an extra amount for the UK one (not too much though! - perhaps 100 pounds?).

I hope Hope (sorry) keep producing quality goods here.

The problem is you pay more for stuff made in the uk like hope and orange because they have more overheads and its made by skilled professionals working in the right conditions getting paid a decent wage not £2 a day. If there having stud made surly they can't charge the price they do for there made in the uk stuff

The day we have Tiawan designed Bitish made components then you know the economy's hit the shitter.

crankrider - Member

I would like to say that i could not ever see this happening but who knows.

University admissions down dramaticaly in this country, admissions up just about everywhere else in what we used to think of as the 'developing' world.

It's a concept we might have to get used to. Look at Jaguar/Landrover, and Indian owned company (so where the profit ends up), manufacturing in the UK and exproting to China (where the rich people are). Dress that up however you like, a success for British manufacturing industry or whatever, but I think the high value added jobs are moving on.

The problem is you pay more for stuff made in the uk like hope and orange because they have more overheads and its made by skilled professionals working in the right conditions getting paid a decent wage not £2 a day. If there having stud made surly they can't charge the price they do for there made in the uk stuff

LG built a manufacturing plant in South Wales. The wages in South Wales were less than in South Korea.

[i]Tiawan designed Bitish made components you know the economy's hit the shitter.[/i]

why?

surely if we have world leading manufacturing techniques and technology that deliver a good product at a competitive price then that's a good thing?

I'd rather *everyone* in the world designed stuff and asked british companies to use their production skills to create the best products.

You can't have a good manufacturing base without a local level of design and innovation driving it forward.

Ugly bars, you'd at least expect them to be anodised in line with the other components rather than the LOOKATMYHOPEBARS colour scheme. The bulges at the rise look like Truvativ bars, they have the same shrugging "I dunno" look about them.

I'd rather *everyone* in the world designed stuff and asked british companies to use their production skills to create the best products.

Which is the better paid job, manufactuing or designing? Romantic idealisms and man crushes on Guy Martin asside, more value is added in designing something than making it.

[i]more value is added in designing something than making it[/i]

which is why I added;

[i]You can't have a good manufacturing base without a local level of design and innovation driving it forward. [/i]

but, also, the design process gives far less employment and not everyone in the UK can be a designer and, frankly, some people are better suited to makign things.

Yes, but if you were in charge of economic policy and had a generation of school leavers to manipulate. Where would you encourage them to go?

Primary industry - extracting the raw materials, very little value added in this
Secondary industry - manufacturing/processing, more value added.
Teritary - services. The most value added as the input is paper (+office space, computer etc) and the output is almost 100% profit.

200 years ago people lamented the lack of jobs in agriculture following its mechanisation (ditto miners sicne the last war) and people went to work in the mills/factories. Now we lament the loss of manufacturing in favour of better pay and conditions in tertiary jobs. It's progress and in general people hate it.

taiwan make good alloy bars

but even thomson said it was just easier and far more reliable to make carbon ones in the USA

I'm sure someone will be along shortly with a GOOD carbon one from the UK

PROBLEM WITH THE UK we forgot how to make stuff

EDIT* try getting a company in the UK to make anything technically out of their comfort zone and you get caught in the ..well er ummm er stage of development...

LG built a manufacturing plant in South Wales

200 years ago people lamented the lack of jobs in agriculture following its mechanisation (ditto miners sicne the last war) and people went to work in the mills/factories. Now we lament the loss of manufacturing in favour of better pay and conditions in tertiary jobs. It's progress and in general people hate it.

all well and good, except there are only so many bits of paper that need pushing around. what's required is a balanced economy to suit your raw material ( your school levers ).
as mentioned above, some people are cut out to be designers and engineers, but some are actually cut out to stand on a production line putting one widget inside another day after day for 40 years. not a life you'd wish for anyone, but we are not created equal, so make the conditions safe and as clean as you can, and at least give people a chance to earn a living and provide for their families. look at the welsh valleys for examples for what happens when you have people who can't work, no matter how shit that work might appear to you.
if you don't actually dig stuff up, then refine it and turn it in to something people want, not only do you loose the skills and knowledge involved in those processes, but there's no underlying structure for your bits of paper to float about on. 😕
fortunately the rest of the world is being pulled up by it's bootstraps, and we might in 30 years have a level playing field.
not that it will really matter to the likes of us by then!

The way this post is turning out is quite interesting. Nice discussion. I recently heard a politician talking about UK getting ready to provide services and call centres to support the growing wealth in Asia. This is quite interesting as things obviously were different.

As for manufacture in China. All of these things could be made in the UK. If they were, it would mean jobs created in the region. These items are all made in China to increase the profit margins, this in my opinion is not so good. I would rather see companies making a little less profit and spreading some good.

Production in China creates double the CO2 emissions that production in Europe. To to increase profits companies increase impact. For those who don't believe in climate change there are other impacts that are also higher than if stiff was produced in Europe.

So moving production to places like chine increase profit, increases impacts and has a social impact also.

"Did Hope, start off getting their rotors made in the Far East, then move production to the UK once they had tooled up ?"

I think so. I seem to remember reading they bought some of the machinery from Shimano - possibly the heat treatment line?

I believe China and India may already have surpassed the West in tertiary qualified labour, so we'd better hope they at least leave us with the jobs they no longer want to do!

China is so awash in cash they can't work out what to do with it all. They're investing strategically in things the West, crippled by debt, can only dream of, like food security by buying huge swathes of foreign farmland for their sole consumption.

I run a tiny manufacturing company here in the UK and despite making some of the best products in the marketplace and selling them for fairly high prices it's still not easy to be all that profitable. However, I believe that it's the right thing to do in the long-term, as we'll be ahead of the game as overseas labour and shipping costs increase - and we'll get to employ a wide variety of people in jobs from all academic backgrounds, from PhD level R&D engineers/scientists to those leaving school with hardly any qualifications but a willingness to work (well that's the plan anyway!) So although it's an economic decision it's an ethical decision too.

The Mary Portas programmes were great and reminded me of my work experience days at my Dad's factory - yes, working in a factory is repetitive and often boring but there was that sense of belonging, that sense of value and of worth. That factory is long gone, gradually turned into a warehouse as production was moved overseas for the usual cost reasons.

I despair at the increasing academicisation of the education system - if you're not good at maths or english or computers and you're told that you've got to get good grades if you want to make it in the world, how will that make you feel? How much better would those kids feel if they knew that on leaving school there was a fair chance they'd get a job in a local factory, where their mates worked, where if you put the work in you'd get rewarded? Rose-tinted glasses yes but even the harsher reality is way better than the stupid situation we're now in, where it seems like everyone is expected to go and get a degree and then go to the job centre until a vacancy opens up in the nearest call centre...

what industry are you in cgg?

We're a pro audio manufacturer, we started out with [url= http://barefacedbass.com/ ]high-end bass cabs[/url] and are gradually branching out from there.

chiefgrooveguru is doing a good job starting manufacturing as he describes.

Interestingly the site he works at used to be home to a factory with over 8000 workers. My father and a number of his friends worked there. In the late eighties most of it was knocked down an an Asda store built.

"chiefgrooveguru - Member

We're a pro audio manufacturer, we started out with high-end bass cabs and are gradually branching out from there. "

Good for you - the cost of transporting large empty boxes halfway around the world will always be on your side 🙂

billyblackheart

👿

Could be worse they could be made in Yorkshire

Whats up wi Yorkshire like ??..n i do ope & tekkit ya refering ta Orange !!!,& wassup wi them annall ???... 😉

It's not that surprising is it? Hope are heavily invested in stuff you can machine from solid bits of metal and have based their rep and their entire product look on that. Handlebars are a pretty different product so both outwith their field of excellence and probably their existing hardware. (it's why they still machine rather than forge or cast their brakes)

Only question will be on price I guess, whether they still expect to apply the normal Hope pricetag. Also I reckon a lot of people will assume they're UK-made.

PROPER speakers. I like.

it's why they still machine rather than forge or cast their brakes

I was thinking that the other day, but hope are generaly at the light end of the spectrum, so presumably stiffness is the limiting factor not outright strength (which forgeing would improve over milling). Presumably others forge then do the minimum on the milling machine as it's less time consuming?

Is it possible that Hope mill their parts because of the prohibitive cost of forging presses? I recall an article in Dirt when shmiano invited a few journalists to the plant in japan, and they described these ten tonne presses half the size of my house just to pop out xtr brake calipers. I would have thought that only far east massive factories have the orders and diversity of products to make it worth getting big presses in.

FWIW I think the last words from Thomson (somewhere on their blog when I googled it recently) also said the same thing, but about the equipment for drawing aluminum bars: their choice was $400k minimum to buy in the machines to do it in house, or just get friendly with a good factory that already makes bars for someone else and do their best to make sure that no one nicks their angles/sweeps etc.

Thomson don't make their own bars either - and there's a good reason why: They need special butting equipment, and then need heat treating pretty soon afterwards. It's a big equipment investment, to make one thing.

More here:

http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/01/24/factory-tour-lh-thomsons-massive-stem-seatpost-aerospace-machine-shop/

Could be nice bars ,but cannot tell behind all the silly white sh!te stuck to them.

thisisnotaspoon - Member

Presumably others forge then do the minimum on the milling machine as it's less time consuming?

Forging and even casting is more expensive- the hardware for forging is really cool but costs a fortune, and the setup is involved too. Not suited for small runs and puts a lot of expense right at the start of the process.

I guess the other thing with Hope is that the really obvious machining is kind of their look, and it appeals to a lot of people. They can make a good product that way so why not? OTOH Formula say they prototype with machined parts then forge the high end stuff as it's lighter and stronger- but then they would say that 😉

Anyone else remember that interview with the top boy from Hope, when he mentioned that after they outsourced the carbon bars to the far east, the knock-offs were on ebay before they'd received their own ones? Genius.

I've had some turned parts on my desk recently, sourced in China. Some of the best turning I've ever seen. We're talking micron perfect. They have come a long way in such a small amount of time.
The ones I deal with are some of the nicest folk you'll meet. I enjoy dealing with them.

Great thread, from handlebars to a history of Hope, global manufacturing and economics in one page, some really interesting points made too!
I quite like the bars, a bit fussy, (I find most new Hope stuff is getting overly fussy with graphics and logos) but they look different and okay for it
I've Hope brakes, headset and hubs on one bike with brakes, QR's and BB on the other, the stuff works but I wouldn't buy it just because it's Hope, British is good but performance and cost equally if not more so, therefore if the weight and shape is good and the price reasonable then I would consider getting a pair regardless of where they are made, I'd cut them down though, 800 just a bit to wide for me.
Same with the grips, they look interesting but both have to be sensibly priced, unlike the pedals which are an obscene cost, and to a lesser extent the chainrings
Shame the push fit BB won't fit my Commencal Meta AM, I could do with something a bit better built than a quite brittle plastic Shimano DuraAce one

Probably good bars but I personally think it's a branding mistake - at least for me, Hope stands for quality design and integrated manufacturing. As the website says....
"Everything is made in the Barnoldswick Factory (with the exception of electonics in the lights, rubber seals, pad material, hose and bearings) right down to the connectors, shims, pawls, and other small parts that go into making the finished piece."

The bars are just specified (NOT the same as designed), outsourced manufactured (probably very good quality but not the point) - the "Hope value add" is mostly in the sticker. If you want to become Superstar, that's a perfectly fine business model but not a branding position that attracts me as a consumer. Guess Renthal and Works Components will be seeing more of my money in future.

Sorry to rain on your parade guys but have you not heard that Renthal don't make their own taperwall handlebars. I have toured their factory and there was no swaging machines to produce taperwall bars.
I can't blame hope for jumping on the band wagon, as there are currently no taperwall handlebars manufactured in the UK. All bicycle bars come out of a handfull of factories in Tailou (Taiwan). Renthal are just another off the shelf item from Premetec. http://www.premetec.com.tw/

A hydroforming press for bars is a pretty whacking great massive thing think along the lines of 500 tonnes clamping force you wouldnt get one in your average 3 bed house

theres some clever swedes however that can do it with far less equipment and dont need big 10k tools

Try getting anything more complex than a straight guage made of good quality aluminium tube these days and your pretty ****ed in this country

Forging is where we lead the world tbh and right in downtown sheffield

Thomson don't make their own bars either - and there's a good reason why: They need special butting equipment, and then need heat treating pretty soon afterwards. It's a big equipment investment, to make one thing.

Exactly, search Brant's posts for past musings of a similar nature. The taiwanese are the world experts at bike making and have all the kit, why wouldn't you go there.

I have no intelligent points to add to the manufactured in-house debate but thought I'd add my voice to the ever deepening cesspit of internet opinion by saying I think the bars look absolutely gopping, it looks like someone got a 'print your decals' kit for xmas and went bat**** crazy.

The Thompson bars however are beautifully minimalistic.. not wide enough though.

my German chums are worried because they are selling huge amounts of manufacturing equipment to the far east....equipment that can be used, ultimately, to make stuff as good as they can.

[i]The Thompson bars however are beautifully minimalistic[/i]

I got to hold a pair of the Ti ones and go 'bwaarp' round the store at a local shop a few weeks back. They are really, really lovely and felt plenty wide enough to me 🙂

Tiawan produces better quality cheaper alternatives for every single part Hope produce!
Where Hope wins is customer service and aftersales care!

The Thompson bars however are beautifully minimalistic

they remind me of the xlite risers (not a good picture but it was a long time ago) http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/download/file.php?id=88877&sid=104084bc4fbace16d80cb9d91af7c45b

I don't see a problem really, if you don't want bars from the far east, just don't buy them...

OK so Hope seem to carry a customer perception and position in the market, they have made an art of inefficiently nibbling parts out of billet and slapping the odd union flag on some of them, so people can wax lyrical about how their brakes come from the land of flat caps and whippets rather than those from the land of sushi and ninjas...

The biggest part of all of this is perception though, Hope have never really actively pushed their "Britishness" it's mostly been the Fanbois treating it as an extra USP. I think it would be worse if a British company chose not to enter a market segment just because it meant supplementing their manufacturing capabilities with (Gulp) foreign resources...

I think it's to Hopes credit that they are not so blinded by some UK-centric philosophy and can at least look further afield when they need to...

The day we have Tiawan designed Bitish made components then you know the economy's hit the shitter.

You reckon? I'd read that as the UK having a manufacturing capability the far east couldn't easily or cheaply replicate, sounds like a potentially good thing IMO... what’s wrong with having a manufacturing industry that exports internationally?

What also strikes me is it’s always the far east that gets the interwebz shoeing. If Buying British is really the key thing why is it always Taiwan that seem to get vilified in these debates, why don't we get a bit more vocal about keeping brands manufactured in other western economies out of the UK? nobody seems to be campaigning against Yeti or Santacruz in the UK, both apparently steal trade from the barely extant British bicycle manufacturing industry on home soil, why the double standard?

There seem to have been a few of these debates on STW over the last week or so, are Bicycle parts of British Origin really that far up the STWists agenda?

cookeaa - Member

Hope have never really actively pushed their "Britishness" it's mostly been the Fanbois treating it as an extra USP.

Well. Front page of the website:
[img] [/img]

A Hope brake:
[img] [/img]

Nothing wrong with this of course! But I don't think it's true to say they don't actively trade on it.

pb666 - Member

Renthal are just another off the shelf item from Premetec. http://www.premetec.com.tw/

They do make motorbike bars in the UK, though. But yep, the pushbike ones arent made in the UK and tbh I think they play a little too fast and loose with that. Not convinced about "off the shelf", though.

find this debate very interesting, its no secret in the bike industry that Renthal taper bars are made off-shore

New Balance have a UK factory, and also a number of off-shore factories (China), yet the Chinese and Japanese are very keen on the more expensive, UK made New Balance shoes, whereas New Balance sell more of the off-shore shoes (cheaper) into the UK market!

Dr. Martins shoes the same, have a UK factory making a limited run at higher prices, and rest of range made off-shore and more affordable - yet many sales of the UK shoes going to overseas customers

"UK Made" has a cachet for certain, to our friends overseas, even though we may not all appreciate domestically manufactured goods, especially when price for cash-strapped UK shoppers is more important than moral considerations over 'where' the goods are manufactured

in more recent news, Apple are moving some of the gadget production back to the USA as its actually becoming cheaper than doing it all off-shore

costs in Taiwan have risen somewhat dramatically in recent years, as anyone working in the bike industry could tell you 😉

these rising costs of off-shore manufacturing (and shipping) could create new business opportunities for manufacturing again in the UK, where falling costs of doing business making it once again viable

When are they out? Said May 2013 it's now July.
Coldon

[i]When are they out? Said May 2013 it's now July.[/i]

This is Hope. May 2013 = June 2015.