[Closed] Genesis grapil full suspension bike

It does look good.

If they stuck a pivot in the chaistay I might be interested, otherwise it's just another single pivot 🙁

Like the look of that, would fill the gap between my 150 and 120mm bikes 😀 😕

Umm, am I the only one to think it reminds me of the NP mega?

No bad thing, and if it come in lighter (6LB range with shock) , I'd be very interested.

Is 120mm rear and 140mm front the new cool?

It looks like a longer travel version of the orange st4 which i really like too. Hopefully, it won't have the Orange price tag.

PeterPoddy - Member

If they stuck a pivot in the chainstay I might be interested, otherwise it's just another single pivot

what he said.

the first rumours about this bike showed a con-centric pivot/axle thing (think Split-pivot/ABP*), so to see it finally released with a CSP** is a little dissappointing.

(*which is just a complicated way of avoiding the FSR patent)

(**Cheap-Skate-Pivot; the design used by Turner, Scott, Kona, etc. when they weren't allowed to use the chainstay pivot anymore)

I like the look of that, and if it comes in that green so much the better. 😀

(**Cheap-Skate-Pivot;

Sounds good to me! 😀

I have no problem with CSP. Anyway, the Horst link patent that Specialized own runs out next year (or maybe 2013). And I'd have thought that Genesis would only be selling in the UK, or Europe at most so the HL patent doesn't apply. So, I can only guess they (Genesis) don't see it as relevant.

that isn't just a single pivot though, is it... its got a linkage actuated shock - so it is more yeti 575 than orange 5.

pretty sure it is single pivot looking at the picture

There's a pivot on the seatstay where it attaches to the chainstay.

that isn't just a single pivot though, is it... its got a linkage actuated shock - so it is more yeti 575 than orange 5.

575 has a seatstay pivot....

All that linkage does is isolate the forces on the rear end from the shock bushing and stiffen it up.
With no other pivots in the system, if you removed that linkage, the shock stroke geometry wouldn't change, and the bike would funtion just the same, but flex a lot.

It's a single pivot.

EDIT
Was typing when this was posted

There's a pivot on the seatstay where it attaches to the chainstay

It looks like there might be, yes. It's not that obvious at first glance.
So yeah, it's a Kona. 🙂

yep, it's basically a kona.

nothing wrong with that, but i'm a little dissappointed about it after 2 years of waiting/rumours/spyshots/etc showing something a little more intelligent.

"ooooh! - look! - it's got an axle/pivot! - ooooh!

ooooh! - is that one a 29er!?!? - ooooh!

oh, it's a kona. oh."

Excellent cheapskatepivot (tm) is better than far anyway too much pedal bob !

Looks a lot like that Saracen thingy. While I'm disappointed with the lack of chainstay pivots, it does look useful.

There are a limited number of ways you can make a swing arm...
I like it, but I have my 150mm rear 160mm from covert and cannot be persuaded that I need another fs..

Looks a bit like a Blood that I already have and so don't need another.I like rocker actuated single pivots. Is that very wrong?

I like that!

Looks a lot like that Saracen thingy. While I'm disappointed with the lack of chainstay pivots, it does look useful.

Both Madison owned brands - no real surprise I suppose.

I thought the FSR patent only applied to frames/bikes sold in the US market (which is why you see Canadian and Euro 'Horst' link frames)?

Based on the proto I rode and the designs I was shown at Icebike, it was Trek and ABP that was the issue. Deffo wasn't a Horst link. They thought they'd got round it but designed the single pivot bike above just in case. Looks like they needed it.

I'd like to see a compromise - Horst link on drive side, seat stay pivot on none drive side. Best of both worlds.

jackthedog. Very good.

😆

No real issues with axle pivot patents in the UK / Europe at the moment, Treks patent is different and DW has US but not European. For now anyway.

the first rumours about this bike showed a con-centric pivot/axle thing (think Split-pivot/ABP*), so to see it finally released with a CSP** is a little dissappointing.

(*which is just a complicated way of avoiding the FSR patent)

An axle pivot isn't an FSR-avoider - it's a different kinematic, it does different things.

Wow! Looks right up my street.

Bushing though... don't they mess us the frame if you get any dirt or play in them?

Alex

Looks good to me

But what do I know

Looks like better heel clearance than a five

looks like a blood as stated already, looks great I think. 🙂 A fancy single pivot.

ajt123 - if done right bushings can outlast bearings. Just ask a Turner owner.

yep, it's basically a kona.

nothing wrong with that, but i'm a little dissappointed about it after 2 years of waiting/rumours/spyshots/etc showing something a little more intelligent.

Erm...

Not quite

Far more so than how many linkages a frame has, where they are and what they're connected to, is the main pivot placement. Kona's pedal like poo cos their main pivot is too low in general. 4 bars get away with slightly lower main pivots and still pedal ok, because of the slight compensation in the axle path. But decent single pivots with the pivot pretty much inline with the middle ring (or whatever size single ring you're running) are still very much the order of the day for most things. Actuating the shock via linkages is a neat way of getting the desired spring curve without resorting to silly shock technology. Afterall, it works on motorbikes still! Something most people seem to forget... 😉

anyone from genesis/madison on here with an idea of frame only price?

An axle pivot isn't an FSR-avoider

yes it is.

- it's a different kinematic, it does different things.

They do the same thing: they both allow the brake calliper to be mounted on the seatstay not the swing-arm.

the axle paths of a axle/pivot and a typical horst link design are very similar, but there is a fundamental difference between a brake calliper mounted on the seatstay, and a brake calliper mounted on the swingarm/chainstay.

it's why trek done it, they call it the ABP after all...

i'll be interested to see how many bike companies release a horst-link design if/when the patent expires...

('cause it's really quite a clever design)

Terrible name.

Wouldn't buy one for the same reason I don't shop at Kwik-Save . 8)

ahwiles- There's more to it than that. You're right on the brake thing but the anti-squat / pedal feedback is the difference.

FSR / Horst and ABP / Split pivot usually aim to have a different pedalling feel with similar neutral braking. Axle paths can be similar but generally aren't - there's enough difference to change the anti-squat - ie an FSR normally has less. If it doesn't and has the same anti-squat as a SP, then the axle pivot becomes a neater, stiffer solution. Moving the pivot off the chainstay to the axle is a good thing.

If i was designing from scratch I'd go axle pivot as I prefer the kinematics to an FSR - it's not an avoider, for some it's different/better. SPs are better pedalling / climbing bikes if done well IMO. Braking influence is the only minor negative of a SP in longer-travel formats.

@jameso - did you have anything to do with the design of this frame?
If there are no patent issues with either FSR or APB type systems in europe then how come the Genesis has ended up with neither?

@packer - early proto's yes but it's been continued by someone else since earlier this year (i'm not there now). I'm commenting out of interest in the bike / general systems used not out of any links to the company, just to clarify.. 2nd q - I'm not sure, not one I can answer. I can't say there are 'no' issues as I'm not an IP lawyer, but other brands in europe sell axle pivot bikes and the Trek EU patent isn't on the axle alone. Patent faff can distract from making a simple, fun bike though and there's nothing wrong with a sorted SP.

Thanks jameso. You working anywhere of interest to the STW readers these days then?

In his pants on the sofa usually 😆

: )

Probably not.. of interest to STW, that is. The pants comment, well it's my place and as long as the laptop camera is off...

In hindsight I should've kept schtum on this topic (I like to be able to post as a rider not as an industry bod but there's a fine line at times). As you were..

In hindsight I should've kept schtum on this topic

not at all, tis interesting hearing about stuff from the 'inside' as opposed to magazine guff.

Now, if only you knew pricing....

..weight and full geometry...

Anyone? pretty please.