[Closed] General Full Face Helmets - Could there be a gap in the market?

anything with a decent chin guard is going to have to be generally beefed up to cope with the streeses a chin impact will place on the rest of the helmet. It's not a weight compromise most people probably want to make

The few 'trail with a chin bar' type helmets seem to have not sold in large numbers which might explain the fact others are reluctant to enter that market.

parachute full face helmet 2012 edition (which looks massively different to the previous version) is perhaps what you need. Heck I might buy one.

http://compare.ebay.com/like/160716338578?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y&cbt=y

with a top speed of 30mph and ability that limits my airtime to a maximum of 6', i feel that a lid is usually overkill

I think there is a really gap in the market for a well designed, vented, full face helmet for general riding that offers the extra protection (substantial chin/face guard) without too much compromise.

I imagine that manufacturers do to, which would suggest it's probably easier said than done. If you think of a typical xc helmet it's designed to crush on impact. I don't think you can really do the same thing with a chin guard. You could make the guard itself fairly small a light, but it's then going to put massive point loads on the rest of the helmet unless you then add masses of reinforcement.
As an exercise grab a full face helmet, then visualise hitting the chin guard face on, from the side, and from the underside. Then consider what the rest of the helmet has to be like to support those loads.

which looks massively different to the previous version

Does it? Still looks too flimsy to be usefull.

I think there is a market for lightweight full face helemts, but light helemts that meet full face standards are expensive, and while my cheep 661 is hotter than an open face lid it's not too bad for downhill, so if I was bothered I'd buy a backpack that could hold it on the climbs.

And bassides FF helemts suck for jumping.

Yeah, I can't do more than a 20' jump in my full face.

Does it? Still looks too flimsy to be usefull.

That's my concern with the Met too. Look more like a branch defector than anything else. I think Urge are perhaps on the right lines with the Archi-enduro chin guard and visibility but still the top and rear ventilation looks minimal.

I wear a full face all the time. Well, not [i]all[/i] the time. Mostly when riding a bike. Sometimes on the lav.

Its plus points:
Keeps ears warm.
Keeps rain/sleet/hail/snow/wind at bay.
It's on when i might need it - 2 face plants took place when i was not expecting them (I usually book them in for Sundays in Aug.)

Its minus points:
It can get very warm on both warm days of the year.
It makes you look a cknob.

The mussis has just got a 661 comp shifted 2012- very good vents and not that heavy.

Does it? Still looks too flimsy to be usefull.

I think there is a market for lightweight full face helemts, but light helemts that meet full face standards are expensive, and while my cheep 661 is hotter than an open face lid it's not too bad for downhill, so if I was bothered I'd buy a backpack that could hold it on the climbs.

And bassides FF helemts suck for jumping.

It makes you look a cknob.

Null point. I'd rather some hipster thought I looked a knob than spend a week sh1tting teeth. 😆

I have seen on of those parachute helments "work" - a friend came off some wood (oo-er) at Newcastleton and had the common decency to do it in front of all his friends - the chin guard took a good bash and in my opinion saved his chompers and hooter from a bit of an incident.

Specialized Deviant has some reasonable venting for a full face.

Yeah, I can't do more than a 20' jump in my full face.

Stop being so cynical! I was thinking more from the point of view of hanging arround in the sunshine while my brain slowly boils, followed by the lack of periferal vision which isn't an issue on a DH track, but would be a PITA if there's people riding arround you.

"but would be a PITA if there's people riding arround you. "
I'm always at the back....

I've 'Face Planted' wearing the Met Parachute a few times and never needed to spit my teeth out after 🙂 - so I for one am glad I have one despite all the 'Storm Trooper' comments when I'm out riding.

Ian munro - you can make the chinbar in the same way as the rest of the helmet - Ie poly that gets crushed between the ground and your head.

the casco viper is like this

The coulthard facesaver for children was like this

The Met looks like it can take a responsible amount of impact without breaking, see the crash at 17 seconds:

OK he's not onto rocks but that must have been hit with quite some force.

A few people on here have also crashed with Mets and commented on how they have saved there teeth, so the real world doesn't seem to match up with the flimsy comments. As it seem to do what its designed for.

That's my concern with the Met too. Look more like a branch deflector (ftfy) than anything else.

met parachute's been around for years but never really see many out on the trails. would be a good choice for a bit more protection when you don't need a full on DH full face

alternatively (and for more ridicule) just carry round an old school bmx mouthguard in your pocket and put on at the top of gnarly descents 🙂

http://compare.ebay.co.uk/like/150704748619?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&cbt=y

The Casco Viper MX is about the best I've seen along these lines, although as with the Met I'd be interested in seeing some testing footage.

Thing is, chin-guards aren't going to get crushed like a helmet in an impact, they are going to either break or transmit the force to the helmet and yank yuor head back via the chin strap.

for those that have not crashed with a Met Parachute on, it actually works!! I'm just this ugly naturally.

Extra protection/deflection was what I was after, I never had the

yank yuor head back via the chin strap.

If anyone cares to disagree we can do some testing I'll bring some 4x2 and you can either wear your normal lid or a parachute.....

😀 😀

I used to wear a Met Parachute all the time. I bought it cos I wanted more cover for the back of my head, but due to my large noggin, none of the "trail" XC helmets at the time came very low down. The bolt-on guard actually covered more.

It was hotter than a normal helmet, and not much fun on so-hard-you're-going-to-be-sick climbs. For obvious reasons.

Visibility was fine though.

Amazingly, despite it being 4 years old, I sold it for £50 on ebay!

Now have an Uvex XP100 which does cover more of my head.

Surely because riding any where without a helmet is sooo dangerous we should all be wearing full face DH helmets all the time... even to just get on the bike in the first place.

mikewsmith - Member
which still sounds better than the smash face on floor alternative.

For sure, I just think the standard theories about how helmets work don't really pan out in practice...and perhaps they could be better designed if how they worked was properly analysed.

Cynic-al - Actually its all fairly well known. try trl and snell if you want to know how they work. Its all about crushing the poly which dissipates and absorbs energy. read and learn maybe?

Funkydunc - and full body armour obviously

TJ, is there a need to be so patronising and assume I don't know? You post like this while continually mis-reading what I say and calling my tone unpleasant?...I've even raised this point before and you've had nothing to say about it/add to it?

I've understood that theory since I started wearing and selling helmets in the late 80s. Thing is, I've broken probably 6 helmets in crashes, not one of them has broken in the prescribed manner.

You say yourself they offer limited protection, and I agree, it seems to me they could be redesigned to be better.

[i]I've broken probably 6 helmets in crashes[/i]

Ah, the repeated heavy blows to the head explain quite a lot 😉

wwaswas...that's only the start of it!

Cynic-al - from what you have said on this thread and others you clearly do not understand how helmets work.

If yo want to learn then snell and trl are good places to start - there is no point in me trying to tell you obviously.

JT mouthtrap from my old BMX days (mid/late 80s) I've been thinking about them recently as my mate had a face vs path incident (the path won) and it would have saved a trip to A&E.

How do I not understand TJ? The theory is that polystyrene compresses and absorbs some energy, is it not?

There is little point in you telling me I'm wrong but not why, you are right, but that seems to be all you can do at the moment, along with missing my points.

From an earlier thread....

TandemJeremy - Member
...I find it very hard to accept peoples do not have an epiphany or a Damascene conversion when they actually hear my argument

😆

I have been through two casco vipers, no of the face plant has ever finished them off, its been the good old headbutting the ground.

However they look boggin without the chin guard on, saying that I think they are great, oh and last time I looked you can get them in Zebra stipes - cool or what 😕

Ooh Zebra stipes.

I would also like to see helmets that without having a full chinbar came down below your ears and onto your cheekbones that would be a good compromise I believe.

this sort of shape but obvious with ventilation and constructed like a xc helmet
[img] [/img]

I could actually see that working. Haters will always hate and I'm sure some will already be thinking it but why do so many feel that if it's not a cycling xc style lid then you're out to be heckled a bellend.

Quick releases, triple chainrings, lycra etc. etc. are all throwbacks from a different style of general riding (mostly road). No-one shouts phallic laced obscenities at every motorbike rider when they ride past. 😀

TandemJeremy - Member
I would also like to see helmets that without having a full chinbar came down below your ears and onto your cheekbones that would be a good compromise I believe.

It seem Urge is actually thinking the same thought too.

[img] [/img]

I have a Specialized Deviant II. It's ideal. Lightish and very well vented. I can happily climb up Inners wearing it without boiling my face.

I would also like to see helmets that without having a full chinbar came down below your ears and onto your cheekbones that would be a good compromise I believe.

Damn beaten by eliott. I think the OP will find the helmet his looking for already existed. The Giro switchblade. Better than a parachute and much lighter than a proper full face.

Here's an old full facer of mine. I'd say it was still useable. Didn't crack, just some slight gouges and scratches from a 25mph+ full stop faceplant on my right jaw. It's the cheapy Trax Chrome Dome that Halfords used to sell. I bought it two weeks before I crashed, was wearing a pisspot before that and realised I was needing something better sooner rather than later.

[img] [/img]

I kind of expected it to crumple or do something to help slow the impact, but it didn't.

Thats because bicycle FF helmets are not tested in the chinbar and have no poly in the chinbar to absorb / dissipate the impact

Given the chin bar sits away from the face, would there be much point in it absorbing impacts and thus probably collapsing?

I should hope the chinbar stays in one piece! I was assuming higher up behind the cheek area the helmet would choose to part, slowing the impact. The helmet was just so rigid that although saving my jaw and face from being ripped off, there was nothing to slow my brain from its hammer strike on the ridged inside of the forehead area of the skull.

It seem Urge is actually thinking the same thought too.

Already been done, and even with a TLD badge nobody bought them.

[img] [/img]

Although that is the shape of helmet I would like to see I would like to see it constructed like a standard XC helmet ie with loads of vents and not with a rigid shell like a motorcycle helmet so it remains light and cool to wear.

Mr Destructo - thats the disadvantage with that sort of helmet. The chinbar is not included in the testing and with the poly your brain gets a similar level of shock loading to that it would without.

some energy will be absorbed by the chinbar flexing but not as much as by poly crushing

I have been thinking about one of these, seems to address most of the points discussed
[url= http://www.urgebike.com/en/vtt/archi-enduro ]Urge Archi-enduro[/url]

Having a chinbar for anything other than Extreme freeride/DH does limit you in design with regards to weight and venting, I'm not sure if they'll ever come up with a viable solution. Of all the crashes I've experienced, I've only had one major faceplant on the lower face and that was because of high speed and hitting the ground where a transition levelled out. I think if I hadn't been wearing a full facer, and instead the pisspot I replaced two weeks before, I'd have put my arms across my face. As it was I placed too much confidence in the full facer and as I was flying at the ground I accepted I was likely to die and just relaxed my body and closed my eyes. Who knows if putting my arms up as a cushion would have helped, or if I'd have been carted off with two broken limbs.

The majority of my normal crashes have been where my bike stopped dead leaving me to land on knee, hip or shoulder, with the only head strikes being side strikes where I feel my helmet came out too far, or rear strikes (unavoidable)

I've always tried to get slim fitting helmets to avoid those side strikes, which really feeds into the argument where some people choose not to where a helmet on the road because of increased risk of head strikes from wearing something so bulky. I've personally had a road accident whilst not wearing a helmet, land ed on hip and elbow (chipping bones) but didn't strike my head luckily and I always thought it was because my small head didn't have a bulky helmet on it. This leads me to always fret over new helmet purchases. I actually normally wear a Met Crackerjack for road and XC usage (yeah, kids design!) which is really narrow, but it's not vented enough.

I'm about to buy a new combi helmet and it's got to be a Fox Transition I think. There's loads of people, male and female, wearing pisspots for commuting round here so I won't look out of place and I guess the venting can't be 'that' much worse than my Met for longer rides, but we'll see. If it's A to B on Sustrans routes in the heat of summer I'll just strap the helmet to my rucksack and put it back on at road sections. I simply can't find an adult decent vented MTB helmet to fit me, so this is my route.