[Closed] Full suss - has it had its day?

You're right. Now that you ride a hardtail, the Full Sus market is sure to collapse. 😉

yes but how big do the wheels need to be for a troll on a hardtail

and to actually answer the question

So why bother with full suss, its heavy, expensive and pointless unless you are doing DH!

It's fun, and it's fun, do I need your permission?

op why dont you just ride your bike,its a nice day.I,m off out bye.

Yeah 29 ers are tearing up the world xc races. Don 't worry you can jum on the 650b bandwagon next

Disc brakes and tubeless are on their way out too.

I dont think full sus has had [i]its[/i] day. I think you've had [i]your[/i] day.

Time for you to hang up your mountain biking boots and get yourself a recumbent I think!

Al, a top guide told me there was no future in tubeless...

Next big thing.....
[img] [/img]

Or maybe it was just having fun

FWIW my HT is as heavy as my full sus

Mike, love those niche bar ends there! 😉

Mike, love those niche bar ends there! 😉

As much as I'm loving my 29er riding around the (Artist formerly known as the) black route at Thetford yesterday in the scorching heat, what was mud has been baked rock hard into constant stutter bumps. I'm sure I would be either quicker/less beaten up on my Camber after riding that.

...a top guide told me there was no future in tubeless...

A Girl Guide? That's the only way that sentence makes sense.

Al, a top guide told me there was no future in tubeless...

And they were qualified to be a knowledgable source on this how exactly?! 🙄

Full suss sales are well down this year (based on my purely anecdotal evidence gathering of chatting to people about bikes).

I don't ride mine as much since i got my 456 as an everyday chuck about bike.

People crave change. So they change bikes and types of bikes

I'm in a loving FS phase but I was late to the party.

Hardtails may well be seen to coincide with recessions, in the long rung. That would certainly make sense

Last few times I've been at Woburn there's been loads of us on hardtails, usually its full of people on expensive shiny fs bikes. Don't really get that unless that's their only bike which is fair enough, personally I find all the trails there easier and faster on a ht! Still got my fs though but when I have it back up and running again it'll probably only get used for uplift days and holidays.

Love my clown wheeler, but if I had the money I'd have an Orange 5 as well.
A few years ago I was in the fortunate position to have both a ss hardtail & a nice Ventana FS & the fact they were so different made me appreciate each all the more. I run a nice clown wheel these days & it has blurred the boundary a bit, but sometimes I really wish I was on a FS.

an in-joke njee, he was an idiot.

Full suss sales are well down this year (based on my purely anecdotal evidence gathering of chatting to people about bikes).

Thing is i suspect so are MTB sales in general, road is the growth market.

I wish prices were matching sales fall!?! Plus restricted supply keeping prices high. 😉 I would be happy to buy a new bike but think recent price hikes are taking the proverbial. Rode an amazing epic carbon 29 er on demo day. But £4k is crazy IMO. Hence make do with the old bike!

What a weird question...

There seems to have been a rash of particularly tired trolling topics recently. You'd think with this weather people would have better things to do (I'm off to Grizedale shortly btw 🙂 ).

But £4k is crazy IMO

Why?

mid 90's a standard judy was £400 i seem to remember, bare in mind the cartridges failed once a week and the springs were lumps of foam, if you made the forks work, risse cartridges, Englund air kits, etc you were talking at least another £100.

Current forks are similar and that is before you consider inflation.

As for bike prices same applies.

full suds all the way, Oramge Sub 5,

Spell check has definitely had its day too ....

 

So is forum preview...

Mrmo

Thanks merely proving my point. Assume 1995 = £400 and 2012 = £4000, then that makes a 14.5% COMPOUND rise in prices. By most standards (and in a rel low inflation environment) that is some price rise.

And in the last few years and a global recession, the same story. On an asset that (if Lynskey are to be believed) will depreciate over 5 years to zero value 😉

Makes us all mugs!! Still only the latest in a number of "hot" sports.

He was talking about forks specifically, not complete bikes.

A 2000 S-Works FSR was £2400, by 2004 they were £4000, now £7200. Dunno what that says, not really comparing apples with apples.

Ok happy to stand corrected but that is still 9.6% CAGR and well above inflation on a rapidly depreciating asset (ignoring maintenance).

Anyone expecting value or buying as an investment...high end bike kit? Do you have a brain?

Yes, ridden one simple bike for many years! Just gobsmacked at recent price inflation. Triathlon is worse though. Fortunately tennis racket inflation has peaked which is a relief in a house full of tennis players! Maybe MTB has another couple of years before sanity prevails?

In 1995 I paid £700 for a Kona Kilaue. That was a rigid Crmo rigid bike with 27 ratios via thumb shifters.

todat £700 pounds would buy you a bike better in every way except possibly total weight. But £700 in real terms. Maintenance would be more though now

My FS cost £800 used ridden once. I prefer it to my hardtail at Woburn. But my hardtail is a bit rubbish and ancient (so am I)

I think moaning that MTB is expensive becuse you demoed a £4000 bike is crazy. Unless of course you can make a genuine case that you loosing races due to your bike not fitness>

Just because you can buy a £5000 Leica doesn't make a £100 compact expensive or work less well

Ok happy to stand corrected but that is still 9.6% CAGR and well above inflation on a rapidly depreciating asset (ignoring maintenance).

Like I said though, and as others have said, that's not a fair comparison. The 2000 S-Works had an alu frame, Manitou SX forks with elastomers, an XT/XTR mix, Mavic 517 rims, v brakes and some basic in house alu finishing kit. You now get a full carbon frame, fork CSU, rims, seatpost, bars, transmission parts, cranks etc, properly working suspension with inertia valves and that, and it still weighs a lot less than 10 years ago.

How much would you pay for an aluminium v braked FS with elastomer forks? £2000? I think not.

I think moaning that MTB is expensive becuse you demoed a £4000 bike is crazy.

Fine, its just a point of view. I do lots of sports and IMHO price inflation in mtb has been a lot more than other sports. Happy for others to spend £4k, its a personal choice. On the second point, spending an extra £000 to save a few grams when the cyclists is carrying more than a few is always amusing!

njee - nothing stays the same. Tennis rackets, computers etc have all advanced massively with technology without the same price inflation. Excuse my product ignorance, I was merely giving you the examples that you quoted 😉

But each to their own - spend your money where you see fit.

Just because you can buy a £5000 Leica doesn't make a £100 compact expensive or work less well

Find me a £100 compact that works as well as and produces the same results as a Leica....I will buy a 1000 of them right now!

Edit...OK may be just a few...I'm skint.

Double edit.... I'm a photographer and know my stuff so Vivitar ain't going to cut it.

I do lots of sports and IMHO price inflation in mtb has been a lot more than other sports

nah, you can buy a completely brilliant hardtail for £600.

or, if you definitely need a full-suspension bike (you probably don't), you can get a very good one for much less than £1500, even if you want a 29er...

I think my point is that raw material costs are far higher in MTBing now than then. Yes there have been technological advances, as with everything, but tennis racquets and computers particularly haven't seem the same drastic changes in materials.

"Find me a £100 compact that works as well as and produces the same results as a Leica....I will buy a 1000 of them right now!

Edit...OK may be just a few...I'm skint.

Double edit.... I'm a photographer and know my stuff so Vivitar ain't going to cut it."

You missed my point. Good cameras cost more. But the fact that some cameras cost £5000 doesn't mean that other cameras aren't good value

I was thinking of IXUS 115. A great camera fior a light and cheap point and shoot. Not as good as my cheap and cheerful DSLR but still amazing for the money

cheap

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really cheap

[img] [/img]

cool story bro

I understand now, most of you lot are in the south, of course you don't get [b]Mountain[/b] Biking

The main problem, as I see it, is that people rate their bikes relative to a top-of-the-line model. In the Good Old Days, a top of the range mountain bike would set you back £3000, maybe £3500 for something very exotic. Even if you couldn't afford a £3k bike, at least you could get half way there with a £1.5k bike. Whereas now the top end bikes are stuffed full of carbon fibre Kashima-coated Ti-machined SRAM XX components that no one actually needs and they're approaching £10,000, so the bar is set higher. The half-way mark is now £5,000. People now think their common garden variety aluminium-framed, SLX-equipped bike is no longer aspirational. So we now think bikes are getting more expensive.

Bike manufacturers aren't stupid. They realise that if they build it, some people will buy it. And even if people don't buy the most expensive model in a range, they'll aspire to an XTR drivetrain and one day might splash out on at least XT bits.

We're on the edge of a precipice. Take the car market, for example. Taken at face value, the Ford Focus is all things to 99% of men. Unless you [i]need[/i] a van, more-or-less everyone could make do with a Focus. So why on earth can you buy a car that costs fifty times as much? Imagine taking that logic and applying it to mountain bikes - What if there was some niche boutique brand that offered £50,000 mountain bikes for people with far too much money? As mountain biking becomes more prominent and more middle class, people worry less about being [i]that[/i] all-the-gear, no-idea guy. Someone, somewhere, would buy one. And a lot of us would be lulled into thinking that our £2000 Specialized Stumpy was a cheap piece of tat.

Which, of course, is stupid. £1000 will buy you a better bike now than it ever has in the past. If we could ever stop looking at stupid 'aspirational' £10,000 bikes then we'd realise we've never have it so good.

teamhurtmore - Member

Ok happy to stand corrected but that is still 9.6% CAGR and well above inflation on a rapidly depreciating asset (ignoring maintenance).

And that would be a good point, if it weren't for the fact that you're also getting a product that's enormously better. Today's high end bikes can't be realistically compared to 2000's high-end bikes, but if you look way down the price ranges today you'll find something more similiar.

Superficial very well but

The relative thing does present a risk. If people feel they can't afford the kit they might well move on.

I gave up windsurfing partly due to cost. My perception was that you really did need different kit for different wind speeds. When I rented kit abroad i found it really was more capable than mine.

So although the boards and sails got better and more flexible with time most peole seemed to end with more stuff. Those who didn't spend were left bobbing about while the cheque book brigade shot past.

MTB isn't like that, but I wonder if it feeks like that if your passed by some one on a carbon wonder bike

NW - I accept the points and perhaps I am overly influenced by (1) the three LBS that I use all claiming that generally prices have gone up while specs going down (in the SR) - similar to your apples and apples idea but working against the consumer, (2) the fact that the bikes I am tempted to buy, jumped massively in price 2010-12, (3) the fact that discounting of 2011 models is so big that gives a little bit away, don't you think?

Plus, I have to smile when I read multiple £k bike reviews with comments such as "suitable for upgrade" or buy mid range components as they are just as good but last longer. (Yes, I understand...but there is a certain irony there!)

Triathlon is the same/worse and probably about 2-3 years ahead of MTB in the BS pricing game. But at least bike events remain better value that tri's.

At least, car park envy at a race soon goes when you pass the bikes out on the course!! 😉

the three LBS that I use all claiming that generally prices have gone up while specs going down (in the SR)

That is true for mainstream manufacturers to be fair, the value peaked about 3-4 years ago when a top of the line Rockhopper was £1000, came with Reba forks an SLX/XT group, Juicy 5s etc. However, what we now have is Boardman, Cube, Canyon etc, who are knocking out better value bikes than Trek/Spesh et al ever managed.

not had its day for me.... although I only went Full Sus last year.

Yes njee, trek and spesh biased my limited (?) sample data a lot! Hence my disappointment at getting of a brilliant epic demo recently and then being told the price (that was the £4k one!!). I bought the car instead. 😉

Not for me either. In fact I'm thinking of selling my steel hardtail, just to go against the trend.

The 20 year trend is for better value

the trend over the last few years has not, due to a weak pound. That has hit lots of other things like photography (lenses in particular)

But hard tails are cheaper to run but no less crazy expensive at the top end

Litespeed guaranteed until it cracks anyone?

Hence my disappointment at getting of a brilliant epic demo recently and then being told the price (that was the £4k one!!)

But you could get a Canyon with better spec for a lot less. Certain brands have got more expensive, but others have either got cheaper, or new ones have appeared lower down the spectrum.

Njee, Canyon dont do a XC 29 FS do they? I looked at the site this morning and thought they only do a 29 HT. Like others, I am feeling the need for some suspension for my old body!! What's the closest Canyon bike to an epic or anthem 29er? (I am sold on 29ers!!)

Not here. Hardtail and full suss and love them both on what ever trail.

Njee, Canyon dont do a XC 29 FS do they?

Not right now, was a generalised example rather than specific to the Epic. Cube do the AMS 29 Race, which is a 100mm travel 29er FS bike, with X.0, Fox forks etc for £2250.

Admittedly aluminium, but you get my point.

Cheers, yes I think we understand each others points!! Never ridden a cube (but quite like the garish colours!!) but that's the same price approx as an anthem 29er which I really enjoyed. Never quite understood why Giant bikes get such a bad press on here?

teamhurtmore - Member

Njee, Canyon dont do a XC 29 FS do they? I looked at the site this morning and thought they only do a 29 HT. Like others, I am feeling the need for some suspension for my old body!! What's the closest Canyon bike to an epic or anthem 29er? (I am sold on 29ers!!)

have you seen the Rose Dr Z?