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The (extra) cost of servicing a fs bike vs a ht is minimal ime.
i have a fs bike 2015 cube e stereo, i have also had so called ‘fs’ bike back in the 90s, the real eye opener for me was how well modern bikes can be pedalled compared to a ht bike.
a fs bike will be quicker everywhere, uphill (because you can pedal over rougher terrain) downhill, because you can more easily ride it over rough terrain,
on the flat, it’s probably even stevens, if it’s not too rough.
Whether ‘quicker’ is actually ‘better’ is another discussion entirely, for me, maximum excitement is when the bike is right on the limit of adhesion/edge of control, so a cx bike can be pretty exciting if you choose terrain wisely.
horses for courses innit.
are you sure the ht won’t go in your parents shed?
Blast around Hamsterley on the BFe tonight reminded me that I really, really need to replace the Spitfire. Brutal and not fun.
Take a look at the variety of replies in this thread? Choose one and justify it how you will!
Consider both sides of the compromise - full susser's are faster on your standard mtb terrain, but often you end up running tougher tyres to survive the rocky speed, these often come with a rolling resistance penalty on the way to the trails. So now you have a drag on the way to the trails - with 15km of track to the 'trails' that is too much of a negative compromise for my kind of riding, YMMV as it should.
For those that spoke about my opinion on my type of riding - what crackers are you on fellas? My climbs are ultra steep trail type climbs, little pedaling, more hopping. Hardtail (rigid front + plus tyres) wins, for me. (do I need to put that last word in caps for emphasis? 😆 )
Let me take you back to your first post my gnarly friend...
In the same position!
This would suggest that you've never had a FS bike either, same as the OP?. If that's a correct assumption, then you're not really on a position to make the next statement about FS bikes being no good for steep techy climbs, which in itself is bullshit mate.
I just built up a new HT.... well rebuilt an old one I got for £160 on eBay.
I re-discovered the joy .. and pain in equal measures.
I have 2 HT's and one FS ... One HT weighs nearly nothing and a XC geo.... the other is steel and 160mm of travel ... and the FS is 140/130 Whyte T-130 with a Pike @140 on the front.
XC HT ... it goes FAST on flat.... its scary in the air (loves to dive nose first) and doesn't engender that kid of fun. If your idea of fun is the wind rushing past on a gentle trail then .... its possibly a few minutes faster on a complete run of somewhere really tame like the official Swinley Blue/Red/Blue ... but if I do it at that speed my 50yr old joints let me know all week.
Whyte FS ... Gets used 90% of the time... my 50yr old joints appreciate it and every root or rock is a jump waiting to happen. It gets used from Swinley and Surrey Hills to FOD uplifts... usually with the exception of Jnr's bike it will usually be the shortest travel on an uplift by a long way.
NS Core 2012 HT .. 160mm Maz springs up front... daren't weigh it as it might break the scales...
The bike is happy enough on moderate DH ... but I strongly suspect it's going to beat me up. I took it to 417 Sunday and since its so retro its running tubes and got a pinch flat off a hard landing.
Took it to Swinley to play on Camel and follow Jnr a few weeks ago and after Blue/Red/Red/Blue (double loop on Red) I was completely knackered... Swinley suddenly developed a lot of uphills I hadn't realised existed and having ridden up them I was so knackered I didn't have as much fun on the DH as I'd planned.
Jnr left something at the top of Red 21 (I can't remember what) ... so I let him do a loop and went back to get whatever the left.. planning to have some fun on Camel (semi-unoffical DH/Jumps) and meet him at the bottom.
I half killed myself on the hill... got his rucksack (now I remember) and not wanting to not be there when he'd completed the loop rushed down Camel when my body was saying to let my heart rate get back to a reasonable level... next day I felt like I'd done double the distance and 10x the climbs on my FS.... (I was stiffer than after a weekend at Afan on the FS doing all the climbs)
OK, so this is a £200 bike ... but it's great FUN on a few jumps... and it was built for 3 reasons...
1) What can you (re)build for <£200... (I may have slightly gone over but not much, its deffo under £250)
2) Something to take to DJ
3) The aim of keeping fitter whilst out riding with an 8yr old. (Albeit a race fit one)
The last one is going to take some determination ... I honestly can't see me choosing to ride it UP Y Wal... if I had another bike I'd probably chicken out... I could take the XC UP but then the DH would be less fun... so I'd almost certainly stick with my FS....
Of course everyone has different ideas of fun.... different people are at different levels of fitness and have skills and experience on different stuff...and most people are younger than I am...
However I'd say for your average guy or gal ... riding single track FS will be the most pleasant ride and for your average Joe they will likely have more fun on a trail day out on a FS.
To: Nobeerinthefridge
The OP never states he has never had a full sus? Just that he has a hankering for one? I have owned: 3 hardtails mtb's (XC, current plus/trail and a stanton slackline), and 4 full sus (Giant 100mm 2012, canfield Balance 2015 2016, Orange patriot 2015 180mm and a cannondale prophet).
Alas, this hardly seems relevant to the OP?
Just to qualify my position on suspension - I thought it was the most basic fact that suspension provides 'at the extremes' either control or comfort. It is that way in every single application of suspension. Obviously there is a happy middle-ground most people aim for. Nonetheless, if you wish to continue this discussion - drop me a PM. Hardly seems right to take up the OP's thread.
I thought it was the most basic fact that suspension provides ‘at the extremes’ either control or comfort.
You seem to be quite confused about how suspension works. Probably best to stick to rigid bikes.
I thought it was the most basic fact that suspension provides ‘at the extremes’ either control or comfort.
You seem to be quite confused about how suspension works. Probably best to stick to rigid bikes.
<b>Suspension</b> is the system of tires, tire air, springs, shock absorbers and linkages that connects a vehicle to its wheels and allows relative motion between the two Suspension systems must support both roadholding/handling and ride quality, which are at odds with each other.
Although that is from wiki, it's what you'll find in any mechanics/engineering text book on the matter, or when discussing suspension in rally car driving, tanks (if you're so inclined) etc.
Just to qualify my position on suspension – I thought it was the most basic fact that suspension provides ‘at the extremes’ either control or comfort.
I completely miss the extremes part ... my car has suspension ... when it's moving the suspension provides comfort .. but moving isn't an extreme its the purpose of the car. When the car is moving over anything that isn't smooth tarmac is also supplies control... I doubt I could get off my drive without suspension.
On a MTB suspension provides comfort for the intended purpose of the bike... you can go fully rigid on a aluminium frame but even a fire road will be uncomfortable to some extent.. and well, that's not really the purpose of a (real) MTB .. that's what gravel bikes are for.
As soon as you even remotely approach single track suspension is providing comfort and control... not even going towards any extremes whatsoever there is a world of difference between a 2' drop off onto a groomed surface and a 1'-2' drop off into mud, roots, rocks with trees to miss.
Handling a 1'-2' drop into rocks and roots is as far away from EXTREME as I can imagine for a Trail MTB. Indeed this is pretty much as "NORMAL" as it gets.
On the other hand tasking a fully rigid bike off 1'-2' drops onto rocks and roots whilst dodging trees is reasonably extreme.
If you want to talk about "extreme" then talk Hardline, talk Cape Classic (in terms of another extreme)
You seem to be quite confused about how suspension works.
Or it is a completely different meaning of "extreme" we don't know about ???
You can quote as many wiki 'facts' as you like, my suspension does not have to be at any 'extremes' to be effective. A simple test of this is riding the Torridon loop on a HT and a FS, which I've done on both. The climbs on such rough terrain are far more achievable and hence quicker on a FS than they are on a HT, of that there is no doubt, what ever the textbooks say. The rear suspension, if tuned correctly, allows the rear wheel to track the ground, and thus provides traction, whilst in a comfortable, efficient, seated position. On the HT, you will be up and out of the saddle, working a lot harder to get up and over the vast amount of features.
And then there's the descents..... 🙂
Yes. Or No.
As per my profile name, almost all my MTB riding has been on HT's, and for years, a HT has been my do it all MTB. That's not particularly been through choice or some purist-value thing, just that I've not had the cash for 2 MTBs. My 45650b met most of my requirements most of the time, at home on local trails, taking trail centres in its stride, capable (enough) for big days out in the mountains.
I have just built up a Cannondale Prophet (total cost around £350), as it was so cheap, thought "why not". Am glad to have it. Haven't ridden it much yet, suspect it will get used quite a lot, but the other MTB (no longer have the 45650b), Inbred Rigid SS will get used on quick local blasts, and through the winter slop.
TBH, most of the local trails can be ridden on FS, HT, Rigid, CX/gravel bike, the advantages ebb and flow depending on which bike is on which bit of trail.
My FS will be a nice option to have. I'm not convinced, for me, it would be my preference as my only MTB (but that view may well change as I get more time on the bike).
My 2p.
Having ridden a full susser for years I had the chance to ride my old hard tail (that I'd sold to a friend) - Orange P7 (the original one). This was about 18 months ago when I was riding my old SC Superlight. Over smooth single track and hard pack fire roads it was totally fine. As soon as things got bumpy - lots of loose rock across the fire road for example, or roots and rocky ground, it was brutal. My mate had never ridden a full susser and planned to get another (more modern) hard tail - until we swapped bikes that day for 10 mins. He bought a full-suss a couple of weeks later.
It really depends on the terrain you ride. I'd never go back to a hardtail and I always feel sorry for my son when he joins me on his Rockrider.
OK coming at it from a slightly different angle. Whilst people's anecdotes are useful to a point (maybe not the one above about writing off modern HTs based on the ride of an ageing P7!?), try thinking of it in terms of what it will give you in its own right rather than in comparison to a HT.
I've never owned a FS but i'd imagine I would still be able to have a great deal of fun and enjoyment on one - as I do my hardtail. It might be fun and enjoyable in different ways to the HT, but that's probably worth a punt if you feel like a change or want to experience different kinds of fun. If you get the right bike for you then doubtless you'll make the most of it. If you really don't enjoy it then go back to a HT, or if you miss your HT sometimes then save for another!
Don't get mired in myths and a small sample of anecdotes - do what will reward you most.
Rear shock service + bearing change annually.
You are going to need to do a lot of riding and not a lot of maintenance to require that.
Plus you can do them yourself for about £40 of parts.
I have a steel HT and a 140mm FS. Even though I tend to ride mostly on the TPT which is flatish and surfaced, it's the FS that I take out. It's just easier going and more capable for wherever I end up going (I know some decent woods and a few downhill sections).
If you've got £800 at the mo, then why not look around for 0% finance deals. I got my Stereo for £65 a month over 2 years with a £200 deposit when it was on sale.
In fairness, aging or modern doesn't change the back end rattling your ass off over rough stuff. I had a more modern hard tail for the record fairly recently, in fact several between that old P7 and my current ride.
If you've never ridden one, go hire one at a trail centre and get a feel for it. Most folk find the FS much more comfortable, controlled, and ultimately faster. It's really hard to go back. And we are now at the point where you can get a great FS from Calibre or Boardman for less than 1k. Unheard of a few years back.
I have a steel HT and a 140mm FS. Even though I tend to ride mostly on the TPT which is flatish and surfaced, it’s the FS that I take out. It’s just easier going and more capable for wherever I end up going (I know some decent woods and a few downhill sections).
If you’ve got £800 at the mo, then why not look around for 0% finance deals. I got my Stereo for £65 a month over 2 years with a £200 deposit when it was on sale.
That combination seems to me like the perfect match - a steel hardtail and a lightish 140/150mm FS trail bike.
In fairness, aging or modern doesn’t change the back end rattling your ass off over rough stuff. I had a more modern hard tail for the record fairly recently, in fact several between that old P7 and my current ride.
I'd ridden a couple of hardtails but I knew a couple of miles into a ride on a FS bike that's what I needed - for me it was primarily the comfort side of things, after a couple of hours my legs are feeling it and all I want to do is sit down on the pedally sections, which results in my arse being hammered, which tires me out even more, which makes me want to sit down more, and so-on...
Give it a year and I'll have myself a nice steel 150mm hardtail for chucking about and fun stuff, and a carbon 140/1500m trail bike for long days, general trail centre riding and European trips.
Yeah. That's what I appreciate a lot - sitting down spinning hard down a rocky but not particularly technical descent that you be standing through on a hardtail or battering your ass.
I have two bikes right now. If I could have three I'd love a fatbike for a bit of fun. I can't have three!
Has anyone mentioned rear shocks with lockouts or climb modes that can switch your FS into acting like hard-er-tail? Yes you're still carrying the weight and it's not quite the same as a rigid frame but the option is there.
Edit - yes they did. Please carry on
I’m reviving this thread because it prompted me to take my Liteville 301 out for a change, instead of my Ti Hummingbird. So, this morning, I did and, to be honest, regretted doing so. I can’t really explain why it should be but there are plenty of occasions when this has happened and yet very, very few where I’ve regretted being on a rigid singlespeed.
It’s like the Hummingbird is part of me and I instinctively know how it’s going to behave in 95% of situations, wheteas the 301 just feels wandery, imprecise and, most of the time, harder work. It’s not like I ride flat, simple stuff either, because out of choice I don’t. I seek out techy, off-piste descents whenever I can but (and maybe this is the important bit?) I’m not looking to get down them as fast as possible but rather as cleanly as possible. Now I know that a 301 in the right hands is in its element with stuff like this ( example - Tobi Leonhardt, Axel Kreuter etc) and while I’m no riding god I’m not (having come from an enduro and before that, trials background) that bad either. I may be old but I don’t ride like an old woman...
Maybe part of it is that, on the 301, I naively expect to be able to ride pretty much anything and when I can’t it pisses me off, whereas on a rigid singlespeed you maybe don’t have these same expectations, so you put in a bit more effort and when it all works out you feel really elated. I don’t know, tbh. What I do know is that when one of my rides turns to hike-a-bike (this seems to be a regular thing lately...) I know which bike I’d rather sling across my back. And I know that when I’m threading my way down some deeply rutted descent which bike I can hold a line with the best.
I’m probably just fortunate in that I seem to have found something that’s not new school, not fashionable, not the latest anything but for some indefinable reason feels as if it was made for me. One of my riding mates said a few weeks ago that he envies the fact that I’ve basically been riding the same bike for nine years, that I almost have empathy with it and that I never complain and never make excuses when I’m on it. I do what I can do and that’s it, basically.
So, for me, I can see a time where my FS bike won’t get ridden (which is a shame, I suppose) because I know which bike I’ll be riding until I get too old to do the sort of riding that pleases me. Realistically, I don’t suppose that’ll be too far away.
It could be you simply have the wrong FS ? Mine is an absolute dream (now i've fixed the mystery noise) and i feeel 100% happy.
In your shoes... I'd sell the FS today. Pointless if you hate it.
I don’t hate it - more that I, for some reason, can’t do it justice (too old? too slow?) I might ship it out to that Greece, where it’ll be far more in its element on big, rocky stuff than it is here.
99% of us can't do justice to the bikes we ride.... but does that matter ?
I certainly can't do justice to my bikes. The weak link is me, and that's good as there is no excuses when I screw up, I know the bike could do it.
As I mainly ride my full sus I definitely feel more at one with it, know what it can do, how it will handle a given situation. I'm not quite as comfortable (in the confidence sense as well comfort) on my hardtail, but I don't think it's down to lack of rear suspension. I think it's is much more to do with geometry, and better forks. This is the main reason I want to replace my hardtail with one that much closer matches my full sus bike in terms of geometry and the same wheel size. My current hardtail is a bit old school in the long, low, slack stakes, not to mention the 26" wheels. To be honest the wheels size is less of an issue than geo but there's no real options to update the geo without going to bigger wheels, and it would be nice to be able to share wheels/tyres between bikes.