[Closed] Front end too stiff .... Bolt through QR to blame?

Could the bolt through QR be the problem/overkill?

No

I've found with the [b]frozen ground[/b]that the front end seems a bit too stiff

Are you sure the problem isn't the FROZEN GROUND?!!

You have a fully rigid bike and you're moaning it's too stiff?
MTFU

Stiff, turning the bars or the wheel rotating?

Where are you riding?

AS above your mooooosif tyres being really draggy due to the frost/mud combo.

Less air/Wider rim.

Appreciate that the conditions may be a contributing factor it was just a thought.

I had thought that the forks may be stiffer than the Cromoto forks I run on other rigid set ups

@ bigidiot no moaning an no MTFU needed 😉

"I have rigis fork thats= are too stiff"

That blighted about the first 10 + years of my mountain biking career. I can remember having to stop on descents as i couldn't deal with the pain any more. Frozen ground was another misery. Bizarley this style of fork has come back into fashion

Surely the way the front wheel is attached to the fork doesn't effect vertical compliance

Need to experiment with lower pressures.

Good point ampthill.

Cannondale PBones are by far the most uncomfortable forks I have ever ridden 😆

Hmmm....my findings:-
Carbon fork = more trail buzz - absorb bigger hits
Steel fork = less trail buzz - not so good on bigger hits.

My old Inbred with a Swift fork felt a lot stiffer than my SIR.9. I switched to non oversize carbon bars & thicker grips, that helped. I also found flat bars to be stiffer, perhaps the extra bends on a low-rise bar help...
Tyre wise, I run 2.4 Ralph's.

And my front wheel is a Surly nutted jobbie.

If your ever in Staffs your welcome to try my SIR.9.
I love it.

And Niners carbon fork is reckoned to be the best.

LOL. so your only complaints about your fortitude ( from other thread ) are:
1) insufficient tyre clearance
2) no crud mounts
3) too stiff up front
?
😀
carbon bar and less tyre pressure will probably help, or, as you've already tinkered with the geo, maybe a suspension fork...?
😉

@ Del ... TBF my observation in this thread is likely to be of my own making and nothing to do with the frame.

I truly stand by my comments in t'other thread.

just joshing. not taken personally i hope. 🙂
bumped in to someone today who is interested in buying one, that old thread had popped up when i came home this arvo, and i am ( i suppose ) a bit 29er curious, hence my interest.
[b]but i'm not buying one i can't afford it![/b]

Nothing personal 😉

Frame only they are quite reasonable .... Especially in the sales too. 8)

I think the answer is a) the frozen ground, and b) the lack of suspension.

Can you imagine a flexy QR ?????

If the sidewalls aren't too flimsy I'd be running that tyre down towards 15psi in this weather. And although I haven't seen you ride, based on everyone I have (including myself) I'd suggest you bend your arms more!

LOL! still not buying one. go any links? 😉 anyhow - you have a pug fork in there, why not just go fat?

must say i'm a bit confused by genesis' blurb about the 'rigid specific geometry' of the fortitude, in that it appears to be identical to the geometry of their high latitude, though they do state that it is a 'logical progression'. presumably they stuck a squidgy fork on a fortitude and said 'wow! this rides great!'. guess if i was designing bikes for a living i'd probably do the same thing. you only find out what works by trying...
8)

Might be worth trying a different rigid fork. I found Salsa cro moto and Singular Gryphon / Hummingbird rigid forks significantly more comfortable than On-one and Surly 1x1 or Karate Monkey cromo forks(latest version of KM fork might be different) .

I think the Salsa / Singular forks are about 100-150g lighter than the On-one or Surly ones.

My Fortitude tries to break my wrists most rides but then I expected that given it's rigid and made of pig iron. Tyre clearance is fine though (running HD 2.35's) and it has a down tube crud mount...

@ Del - One step ahead of you (well maybe a bit behind!)

[img] [/img]

I'm sure I saw the frame/frameset in the sale circa £349 .... will go off and have a look ....

@ bigidiot no moaning an no MTFU needed

bigyinn - Member

@ bigidiot no moaning an no MTFU needed

MTFU worked for me!

😆 😆 😆

Must say I bit at that last night 😳

For the record I have a fully rigid Marin with OnOne steel forks and god they're harsh at times. But It means I can just ride it through all the crap without worrying about ruining my FS.

must say i'm a bit confused by genesis' blurb about the 'rigid specific geometry' of the fortitude, in that it appears to be identical to the geometry

The difference will be that the rigid fork bike is designed around a shorter axle crown length for the fork. So if you put in a suspension fork you'd slacken the angles and lift the bottom bracket

yeah, that's cool, i get that. the effect would be the same though, on both frames, as they share the same dimensions. so you could fit the rigid fortitude fork to the latitude frame if you wanted, and you'd reproduce the handling of the fortitude.
sram's drawing of the recon tk @80mm as specified on the latitude [url= http://cdn.sram.com/cdn/farfuture/uRGwfrslvWqCsEL3ve8POMX5WXZoe_6GWkMZgWFxnrk/mtime:1307476678/sites/default/files/techdocs/user_spec_recon_gold_tapered.pdf ]here[/url] shows a2c of 453mm, which by the time it's sagged, won't be far off the 445 of the fortitude fork.
anyway - who cares? 🙂

in any case, sram's drawing of the recon tk @80mm as specified on the latitude here shows a2c of 453mm, which by the time it's sagged, won't be far off the 445 of the fortitude fork.

That diagram is a 26" fork though

I think 445 sounds short for a 29er suspension fork, even sagged

That diagram is a 26" fork though

in any case it doesn't change the fact that the latitude and fortitude share the same geo. or did i get that wrong too?

I was under the impression the fortitude was designed around a rigid fork shorter than normal - closer to the length of a 26 rigid fork.

So you will upset the handling of a Latitude by putting little Fortitude forks on it (too steep at the head angle), and will end up too slack on a Fortitude if you put standard 29er rigid forks or suspension forks on the Fortitude.

Mark.....stop being such a girl 😀

Nice bike BTW

My next bike will be a Fatty

in any case it doesn't change the fact that the latitude and fortitude share the same geo. or did i get that wrong too

shall we say same head and seat angle. Different frame dimesnsion, particularly the head tube to achieve this...

Different frame dimesnsion, particularly the head tube to achieve this...

so you could fit the rigid fortitude fork to the latitude frame if you wanted, and you'd reproduce the handling of the fortitude.

i'm sure you do! the website shows frame dims and angles identical for both models, non?
i'm clearly getting something wrong then? care to explain?

Yes all the things you say that are the same ae the same. But the end of the head tube has to start nearer the ground for the rigid fork.

The diagram doesn't show fork length

^ that's the difference. Del, I've not read the website dims but there's sagged (+ how much) or static to consider too when comparing. Anyway, I had a brief scoot on a HL a while back, felt fine to me on 1st impression.

Surly forks tend to be stiffer than salsa.
Salsa do a fat fork, 135mm, the enabler, might be a good switch.

Play around with tyre pressure.

Try the esi extra chunky grips, very comfortable.... http://www.charliethebikemonger.com/esi-extra-chunky-black-3565-p.asp

[img] [/img]

Hang off the back of the bike a bit more, relax you grip, let the bars rattle in your hand, when its get really rough.

Except the enabler fork is longer than the Surly one and the Fortitude is designed around 445mm fork. It might be fine, but geo wise would be same as fitting sus fork.

Would a Surly Rabbit Hole / 29 x 3 Knard combination fit a 26" / 445mm fork? Being bigger diameter it would still slacken angles a bit (0.75 degree?), but might give more cush up front without the weight penalty of 26" x 4" set up. Could try with Rabbit hole rimmed wheel and 2.4" tyre to start with as with wider rim you could run lower pressure.

But the end of the head tube has to start nearer the ground for the rigid fork.

I've not read the website dims but there's sagged (+ how much) or static to consider too when comparing.

i do understand the concept that if you fit a fork with a2c of 445mm vs. a fork with ( unsagged ) a2c of 526mm ( the recon's, according to a quick google ), they will handle differently.

so on two frames with ( apparently ) same HT length, ETT, Seat Tube length, SA, HA, Chainstay length, BB Drop, why, if you fit the same fork to both of them, will they handle differently?

genuinely mystified how i can misunderstand this? come on chaps - help a guy out! ( but if it's too hard, i can't understand it ) 🙂

Del, I'd have to show you 2 frame drawings to explain easier, but I'll have a go. You can lay out a bike for a 450mm rigid or a 510mm sus fork (ie Recon 100mm 29") that both have the same angles with a seated rider on, but the suspended bike will be lower / steeper if you put the 450mm fork on. This is because a 100mm fork should sag about 15-20% with a seated rider on, 25% or more when you stand up, but 25-30mm off 510mm is still longer than 450mm.

2 frames are only the same if the same angles etc with the same fork and the same sag percentage. So for ex, 29er bike A is 69.5 degrees with a sagged 29er fork and 29er bike B is 69.5 with a 450mm rigid, the aim is that they ride the same, but the forks aren't swappable.
If they were 26" bikes, the sus fork would be closer. Or if the rigid was ~470mm.

29er bike A is 69.5 degrees with a sagged 29er fork and 29er bike B is 69.5 with a 450mm rigid

that is simple enough and makes perfect sense. the bit i'd missed is that angles were quoted with a sagged fork. thank you! 😀

No probs. Glad it made sense, cos

You can lay out a bike

Charlie, what are those chunkies like compared to the cork grips Jones bars can come with? diameter vs softness (I couldn't say hardness there could I)